Rail strikes discussion

[SCDR_WMR]

RMT at both branches I've been involved with have always said they will protect those who are not part of the union but work in the same depots as if they were. Gives an incentive to join afterwards really

 

[Thermal]

RMT at both branches I've been involved with have always said they will protect those who are not part of the union but work in the same depots as if they were. Gives an incentive to join afterwards really

Ultimately, protecting non members adds the union's position of strength by keeping workers united and making it harder for management to divide the workforce. It's in RMT's interest to keep all workers, members or not together.

 

[35B]

This sounds very nice, but what does it actually mean in practice? The entire premise of industrial action is that it causes disruption.

To the employer. What bugs me about the rail unions is that, judging by their public utterances, they measure the impact on the employer by the impact on customers, as illustrated by the cartoon below:

 

[HST274]

To the employer. What bugs me about the rail unions is that, judging by their public utterances, they measure the impact on the employer by the impact on customers, as illustrated by the cartoon below:View attachment 116471

Though it has been repeatedly pointed out the train drivers are not yet on strike. It may seem a small point, but train drivers earn what? 56-70k? The workers actually on strike earn on average 31K according to RMT's twitter.

 

[35B]

Technology can not replace everything to a higher standard. ESRs are very accurate and they have to be.

RAIB beg to differ following an overspeed at Sandy.

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of closing ticket offices, I had to excess a fare at a largish station at short notice recently. Doubt I would have been able to do that at a ticket machine !

 

[Carlisle]

You mention upskilling.

It’s odd how nobody in the Daily Mail or Sun reports that the Tory Government approved GTR’s deskilling of drivers ?

Before the 2018 timetable change every Great Northern driver was able to drive almost all the types of trains and almost all routes on their network.

That’s because Routes, Traction & Depot establishments have been intrinsically fluid throughout the railway’s history.
Deskilling could only be described as happening if technology vastly reduced training requirements or abolished the drivers role entirely .

 

[35B]

As mentioned above - that is actually not true though Communications from the employer may attempt to lead you to believe it, either vaguely directly or by omission. Take the Merseyrail DOO strikes where the RMT pickets were respected, entirely unilaterally (you can believe it, I'm sure legal action would have been taken had ASLEF encouraged it even tacitly) by the train drivers, catching the employer completely unawares, as an example.

An important point there - the protection is to an employee who chooses to join a legal industrial action even if not a member of the union in dispute. But if that action were in any way to be co-ordinated, the protection would fall away and the staff involved (and especially those encouraging participation in the dispute) would be very exposed legally.

I'd not bank on such a statement being true. People, including myself have returned to EZY and FR after being treated like dirt in the past simply down to the economics of it, the same doesn't apply to the shameful way the paying public are about to be treated by the rail industry because we have other options available. We are innocents in all of this but are paying a high price.

The difference being that thsoe of us affected have other choices that may include not travelling.

 

[eldomtom2]

I'm not sure if you are allowed to join the picket line but you can refuse to cross it. You would be treated as if you were on strike and protected accordingly.

Doesn't that require there to be an actual picket line though? If you're a TSSA member and your workplace isn't being picketed by the RMT, are you protected?

 

[windingroad]

However, the £7B gap in ticket sales is a huge issue. Where is that money? People working from home are not now paying train fares and neither are companies who offer season tickets as perks - instead of tax allowances, working from home should incur a tax as it is their outgoings that have decreased (ignoring home fuel costs as that has affected everyone regardless)

This is an insane suggestion! Should we also tax people who work at the corner shop next door? Sorry matey, you're not buying train fares, so you better pay up.

 

[GB]

Though it has been repeatedly pointed out the train drivers are not yet on strike. It may seem a small point, but train drivers earn what? 56-70k? The workers actually on strike earn on average 31K according to RMT's twitter.

GA drivers not striking next Thursday and Saturday 3rd July then?

 

[35B]

Still not clear whether this is a practical blocker, something that should be addressed through upskilling, something that actually happens or the DM sources talking nonsense, although others have made their personal views very clear.

Or how about there are two routes - ECML and WCML - which happen to have termini 10 minutes walk from each other, but are otherwise completely unrelated? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples which could be presented like that, but where they are actually completely unrelated, and for perfectly good reasons.

Not least, as an ECML user, I would be pretty hacked off if the King's Cross S&T team were called to a WCML incident, and as a result unable to deal with something 10 minutes later on the ECML.

I work outside the industry, but see how workforce estimates for maintenance teams are prepared. They're based on understanding an area of coverage, and having enough people to cover when something kicks off. That's based on averages, with allowance for the reality that when things go wrong, they really go wrong.

 

[HST274]

GA drivers not striking next Thursday and Saturday 3rd July then?

Yes

 

[windingroad]

To the employer. What bugs me about the rail unions is that, judging by their public utterances, they measure the impact on the employer by the impact on customers, as illustrated by the cartoon below:View attachment 116471

While obviously it's a political cartoon looking to make a point, I find it hard not to roll my eyes at an image which has the train driver with his feet up and a thermos of tea, versus a platform full of every essential worker you can imagine. It's a manipulative and malicious way to frame the dispute.

 

[YellowBrick]

Though it has been repeatedly pointed out the train drivers are not yet on strike. It may seem a small point, but train drivers earn what? 56-70k? The workers actually on strike earn on average 31K according to RMT's twitter.

More likely 37k according to the BBC[1].

That's far in excess of the national average (26k).

It's even worse when you consider many of the jobs are only semi-skilled jobs that require barely any training yet get 33k ("Rail travel assistants - £33,310 - includes ticket collectors, guards and information staff"); nurses averaging 31k and requiring a 3 year degree and expensive professional membership.

1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077

 

[Starmill]

Maybe if Holyrood gave me back

A lot of the money os being spent anyway though. The savings would amount to perhaps single figures of pence per day per resident in Scotland.

 

[Thumper1127]

In fairness, it shouldn't be a tax on people who were furloughed, possibly the companies though if based on profits from 2020-22.

However, the £7B gap in ticket sales is a huge issue. Where is that money? People working from home are not now paying train fares and neither are companies who offer season tickets as perks - instead of tax allowances, working from home should incur a tax as it is their outgoings that have decreased (ignoring home fuel costs as that has affected everyone regardless)

So, let me get my head around the concept that people not now buying season tickets should pay more tax. Season tickets are purchased out of taxed income (an employer providing a season ticket for travel to/from work would be providing a benefit in kind which would be taxable for the employee). So, as the average punter I’ve found that instead of travelling 5 days a week by train (taxpayer supported to a degree of course) I decide I no longer need to or I can effectively do my job by only commuting, say, twice a week. Clearly there will be less revenue for the rail industry. But you want me to pay tax because I no longer “buy” as much of your service as I used to? It was my money to start with, having paid my taxes. You have absolutely no right to reach into my wallet to extract my taxed income in order to support your employment in much the same way as I have not right to your taxed income to support mine! I am ex railway (17 years), love it, follow it and am passionate about it. I believe in unions, I believe in democracy and things are very difficult for us all at the moment. But your suggestion is tantamount to theft from your fellow person in order to preserve your status quo. Oh, btw, I must offer to pay more tax because I no longer smoke, use less petrol for leisure journeys (ironically, using public transport!) etc. I really hope your comment was tongue in cheek!

 

[Starmill]

GA drivers not striking next Thursday and Saturday 3rd July then?

Aslef are also in dispute at ScotRail and taking strike action at London Tramlink as well as Greater Anglia. Unless that's out of date now?

 

[35B]

While obviously it's a political cartoon looking to make a point, I find it hard not to roll my eyes at an image which has the train driver with his feet up and a thermos of tea, versus a platform full of every essential worker you can imagine. It's a manipulative and malicious way to frame the dispute.

I suggest you look at the cartoonist's back catalogue - he is no hack, and nor does he follow his paper's editorial line. Personally (and accepting the over-simplification of using a driver in the cartoon is technically wrong), I find it captures the gap between RMT rhetoric and reality to a tee. For the working class, yet acting narrowly to pursue their own factional interests.

 

[HST274]

More likely 37k according to the BBC[1].

That's far in excess of the national average (26k).

It's even worse when you consider many of the jobs are only semi-skilled jobs that require barely any training yet get 33k ("Rail travel assistants - £33,310 - includes ticket collectors, guards and information staff"); nurses averaging 31k and requiring a 3 year degree and expensive professional membership.

1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077

The BBC admits though that values can be pushed up or down depending on whether you add cleaners etc. which people seem to state are striking. Its the same with the national average- the median is 26k, but am I right in saying the large majority of rail staff are full time? I may be very wrong so please correct me. If they are, the median of full time workers is supposedly around 31k and the mean, skewed by anomalies of course, is 38k. I suppose far more complex calculations could be done to compare all fulltime rmt workers average pay to this figure.
Remember also, with a median half of all people in the country will be above that number. Not everyone has to be near or below that value. If you earn well above a mean however that sort of suggests you are 'well paid'.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The same advice applies as in any job though, if you aren’t happy find a new job!

Worst advice ever. If everyone took it we'd have next to no employment rights at all. If you aren't happy why should you fight for better rights in your job??

 

[windingroad]

I suggest you look at the cartoonist's back catalogue - he is no hack, and nor does he follow his paper's editorial line. Personally (and accepting the over-simplification of using a driver in the cartoon is technically wrong), I find it captures the gap between RMT rhetoric and reality to a tee. For the working class, yet acting narrowly to pursue their own factional interests.

But that's the RMT's function: to advocate for its members, who are by definition a subsection of a subsection. How do you propose it secures better conditions for the entire working class?

 

[2021_Signaller]

I can't see what the problem is with the RMTs figures. As a signaller I earn 29000. NR thought that their offer including two payments of 0.5% would be attractive. To put that into context, it is a payment of ... £130. About what it takes to fill up my car to get to work every week

 

[JohntyRogers]

I can't see what the problem is with the RMTs figures. As a signaller I earn 29000. NR thought that their offer including two payments of 0.5% would be attractive. To put that into context, it is a payment of ... £130. About what it takes to fill up my car to get to work every week

I didn't know that they offered 0.5%. How insulting.

 

[2021_Signaller]

I didn't know that they offered 0.5%. How insulting.

They offered 2% and two payments of 0.5%

 

[JohntyRogers]

They offered 2% and two payments of 0.5%

Even so.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Considering how much they spend on training signallers, you'd think they'd be doing a lot more to retain us.

 

[JohntyRogers]

Considering how much they spend on training signallers, you'd think they'd be doing a lot more to retain us.

I'm actually amazed they only pay you 29k. I had no idea. What a jip, that's nowhere near enough for that job.

 

[nanstallon]

It seems the RMT are marching to End Rail Jobs, Pay and Conditions! If only someone had bothered to check the preview of their video before posting it to the world!

View attachment 116432

Freudian slip!

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of criticism on the strikes taking place while school children need to take GCSE and A Level exams, both on social media and on the TV news, including criticism from the Labour Party!