Rail strikes discussion

[JohntyRogers]

A lot of criticism on the strikes taking place while school children need to take GCSE and A Level exams, both on social media and on the TV news, including criticism from the Labour Party!

"will someone please think of the children" Boris et al have much negative press like this planned. Regarding the children, we'll so what, life gets a lot harder than not being able to get a train when you need one.

 

[northwichcat]

so what, life gets a lot harder than not being able to get a train when you need one.

Yes. It'll be a whole lot harder when due to the RMT directly causing them to not pass their exams, they are financially dependent on their parents for an additional year. Some children and parents will be thinking of rail workers in their fat cat mansions demanding a few thousand extra for cigars, while they struggle to feed themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the subject of closing ticket offices, I had to excess a fare at a largish station at short notice recently. Doubt I would have been able to do that at a ticket machine !

Most of the time I have been unable to do it correctly at a booking office, either. I would value booking offices if my experiences of them were not so utterly and consistently poor.

 

[Starmill]

I can't see what the problem is with the RMTs figures. As a signaller I earn 29000. NR thought that their offer including two payments of 0.5% would be attractive. To put that into context, it is a payment of ... £130. About what it takes to fill up my car to get to work every week

It's an offer of 2% consolidated plus 1% unconsolidated. It would be worth £870. Not very much of course, but rather more than £130.

 

[JohntyRogers]

Yes. It'll be a whole lot harder when due to the RMT directly causing them to not pass their exams, they are financially dependent on their parents for an additional year. Some children and parents will be thinking of rail workers in their fat cat mansions demanding a few thousand extra for cigars, while they struggle to feed themselves.

Oh I'm sure the holier than thou parents will demonise us all. Last time I checked I'm not in a mansion, this fat cat is broke working his arse of.

If these kids fail, it's not going to be because they have to get a bus that particular day, more like the ineptitude of those parents and those teachers.

Do they want to throw any more rubbish at us. Hold on, damn, my train has just been cancelled home tonight, well thanks NR, me being late will almost certainly give my child seperation anxiety and ptsd.

 

[800001]

It's an offer of 2% consolidated plus 1% unconsolidated. It would be worth £870. Not very much of course, but rather more than £130.

I think the poster is referring to the payment of 0.5%, not the 2% and the 0.5% together.

 

[Starmill]

It'll be a whole lot harder when due to the RMT directly causing them to not pass their exams, they are financially dependent on their parents for an additional year.

Surely this is not going to be the case? Yes, it will be inconvenient for those going to their exams, but surely they will either get the bus or if no bus service is running a lift or a taxi? It's only a handful of dates to travel to exams.

 

[dk1]

Yes. It'll be a whole lot harder when due to the RMT directly causing them to not pass their exams, they are financially dependent on their parents for an additional year. Some children and parents will be thinking of rail workers in their fat cat mansions demanding a few thousand extra for cigars, while they struggle to feed themselves.

We don’t all smoke

 

[Starmill]

I think the poster is referring to the payment of 0.5%, not the 2% and the 0.5% together.

Who under the offer would be receiving the 2*0.5% without the 2%?

 

[nanstallon]

In fairness, it shouldn't be a tax on people who were furloughed, possibly the companies though if based on profits from 2020-22.

However, the £7B gap in ticket sales is a huge issue. Where is that money? People working from home are not now paying train fares and neither are companies who offer season tickets as perks - instead of tax allowances, working from home should incur a tax as it is their outgoings that have decreased (ignoring home fuel costs as that has affected everyone regardless)

Ridiculous idea. Nobody has a duty to pay train fares, when they don't need to travel. In fact, people be encouraged to work from home, for environmental reasons. Office premises aren't going to be converted to housing, but a lot of people need only to come the office one or two days a week for face to face meetings.

 

[Need2]

It may seem a small point, but train drivers earn what? 56-70k?

And your point is what exactly, anyone earning more than a certain amount doesn’t need or deserve a pay rise?

 

[HST274]

It's an offer of 2% consolidated plus 1% unconsolidated. It would be worth £870. Not very much of course, but rather more than £130.

Yes. If anyone cares, a 5% increase for the supposed average of £33,000 would be an extra £1,650 a year. While someone on £40,000 may get an extra £2,000 a year, those cleaners etc. on £20,000 would only go up to £21,000 (still 5,000 below the average uk median and 10k below the median of full time workers). Make your mind up as to whether that's too little or too much.

 

[800001]

Who under the offer would be receiving the 2*0.5% without the 2%?

But that doesn’t come to £870.
The 2 x 0.5% one of payments come to £145.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely this is not going to be the case? Yes, it will be inconvenient for those going to their exams, but surely they will either get the bus

In the case of schoolkids in Trafford attending Knutsford Academy:

There's a 07:03 bus from Altrincham to Knutsford. It takes 1 hour 10 as it runs very indirect vs the 15 minutes the train an hour later would take. So it's possible they'll get there in time. However, the service is usually operated by a 39 seater vehicle. There's obviously the normal passengers already and then we're talking about 50-100 pupils who would normally catch the train. Even if they get to Altrincham Interchange in time for that bus, there's no guarantee they'll be able to board.


In the case of schoolkids in Knutsford attending the schools in the Greenbank area there's no alternative bus service for any morning exams. While there's a 89 bus from Knutsford to Northwich, the first departure for Northwich is 09:10 and the last departure from Northwich is 13:50. It's a bus service for pensioners doing their shopping and attending medical appointments, not one that gets people to work or school.

or if no bus service is running a lift or a taxi?

In the case of a lift, that may mean parents booking a day off work in some cases.

Taxis are usually very limited in availability between 7am and 9am outside the cities. Many taxi companies already have contract work so have very few vehicles for people who call up and book a taxi and some of the latter will already be booked for airport services.

It's only a handful of dates to travel to exams.

Why does that matter? A failed English or Maths GCSE can prevent entry to a college. Just one missed day during exam season is needed to cause that!

 

[HST274]

And your point is what exactly, anyone earning more than a certain amount doesn’t need or deserve a pay rise?

No my point is that using train drivers in cartoons will cause people next week to get angry at rmt workers because they think everyone in the rail industry earns more than them and shouldn't be so unhappy with 56k a year. That is a very tidy wage, one I would certainly aspire to. I believe everyone in the whole country deserves a payrise at the moment but those earning 20k are more of a priority than those on 60k. That doesn't mean a payrise shouldn't be granted, but that someone on a lower wage should perhaps receive a higher percentage pay rise. (They might both get an extra 2k a year but to the person on 20k than is a 10% pay rise while to the 60k earner it is only a 3.3% pay rise).

 

[northwichcat]

Office premises aren't going to be converted to housing, but a lot of people need only to come the office one or two days a week for face to face meetings.

The amount of city centre space for offices will reduce. In central London last year it was possible to sign relatively cheap leases for office space because there was so little demand for it. The landlords will be looking to convert office space if they are making peanuts from it.

 

[JonathanH]

In fact, people be encouraged to work from home, for environmental reasons.

Not solely though. Independently heating homes instead of an office isn't necessarily better for the environment compared to commuting by electric train.

 

[Thermal]

nurses averaging 31k and requiring a 3 year degree and expensive professional membership.

I agree it's almost criminal how underpaid nurses and carers are. I don't agree that this should be an argument to underpay everyone else. For what it is worth, my TOC training was comfortably more extensive and to a higher level than my 3 year degree.

The figures being thrown around for average wages are also misleading (for both rail staff and in other careers) as they include almost all higher paid roles that are directly employed by TOC's and Network Rail but omit many of the lowest paid who are agency staff and temporary workers of third party companies, often on low pay and limited hours/time contracts for security / platform gritting / cleaning / platform & building painting and maintenance etc. The use of statistics in this manner just serves to divide opinion whilst diverting attention from the real issues.

 

[windingroad]

On the point about homeworking and the reduced demand for commuter travel, I think it's a real mistake for the railway to try and fight that trend. While I'm firmly pro-strike, one thing the railways does poorly (in my opinion) is adapting to fit the needs of passengers as they are, rather than as the railways wishes them to be. Telling the public that they're travelling incorrectly or that they should be taxed for not using the railways is a road to nowhere.

The smart thing to do is to adapt to new travel patterns, focus on growing leisure travel, and find ways to better reflect daily demand.

 

[Moonshot]

In the case of schoolkids in Trafford attending Knutsford Academy:

There's a 07:03 bus from Altrincham to Knutsford. It takes 1 hour 10 as it runs very indirect vs the 15 minutes the train an hour later would take. So it's possible they'll get there in time. However, the service is usually operated by a 39 seater vehicle. There's obviously the normal passengers already and then we're talking about 50-100 pupils who would normally catch the train. Even if they get to Altrincham Interchange in time for that bus, there's no guarantee they'll be able to board.


In the case of schoolkids in Knutsford attending the schools in the Greenbank area there's no alternative bus service for any morning exams. While there's a 89 bus from Knutsford to Northwich, the first departure for Northwich is 09:10 and the last departure from Northwich is 13:50. It's a bus service for pensioners doing their shopping and attending medical appointments, not one that gets people to work or school.



In the case of a lift, that may mean parents booking a day off work in some cases.

Taxis are usually very limited in availability between 7am and 9am outside the cities. Many taxi companies already have contract work so have very few vehicles for people who call up and book a taxi and some of the latter will already be booked for airport services.



Why does that matter? A failed English or Maths GCSE can prevent entry to a college. Just one missed day during exam season is needed to cause that!

My niece is in this very boat. No drama however....mum is dropping her off at school.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Agree entirely. However the unions like labyrinthine sets of rules as it gives them leverage and means the union rep is a focal point. A more flexible attitude by both management and workforce would be preferable.

OK. That makes sense

 

[SynthD]

On the point about homeworking and the reduced demand for commuter travel, I think it's a real mistake for the railway to try and fight that trend. While I'm firmly pro-strike, one thing the railways does poorly (in my opinion) is adapting to fit the needs of passengers as they are, rather than as the railways wishes them to be. Telling the public that they're travelling incorrectly or that they should be taxed for not using the railways is a road to nowhere.

The smart thing to do is to adapt to new travel patterns, focus on growing leisure travel, and find ways to better reflect daily demand.

What would you be adapting to post covid? It’s too soon to judge. They will want to do the job when it’s time.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Who's to say the working from home trend will continue like this forever? I'm not sure how anyone can saw with 100% certainty traveling patterns have changed forever.

It's a convenient line to produce when your plan is to absolutely decimate the railway though.

 

[Need2]

No my point is that using train drivers in cartoons will cause people next week to get angry at rmt workers because they think everyone in the rail industry earns more than them and shouldn't be so unhappy with 56k a year. That is a very tidy wage, one I would certainly aspire to. I believe everyone in the whole country deserves a payrise at the moment but those earning 20k are more of a priority than those on 60k. That doesn't mean a payrise shouldn't be granted, but that someone on a lower wage should perhaps receive a higher percentage pay rise. (They might both get an extra 2k a year but to the person on 20k than is a 10% pay rise while to the 60k earner it is only a 3.3% pay rise).

I understand it now, very well put.

 

[windingroad]

Who's to say the working from home trend will continue like this forever? I'm not sure how anyone can saw with 100% certainty traveling patterns have changed forever.

It's a convenient line to produce when your plan is to absolutely decimate the railway though.

I think the railway needs to adapt, but I am completely against decimating the railway and completely in favour of the strikes. I don't think change is a dirty word, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of railway workers.

 

[yorksrob]

Most of the time I have been unable to do it correctly at a booking office, either. I would value booking offices if my experiences of them were not so utterly and consistently poor.

I guess it's down to experience, but mine are generally pretty good.

 

[js1000]

How selfish can a person get?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2022 ==


So you are talking about something that you have absolutely no knowledge of then?

Not sure what your argument is. To their credit the government continued to run air on trains throughout the pandemic and kept railway staff in work.

My main point is that these strikes are a mistake. Passengers numbers are only 75% pre-Covid which means it's only logical for some cutbacks to be made. Many people now work from home which makes strikes far less effective. The removal of train guard debate and closure of ticket offices will now rear its head again.

10+ years ago the RMT would have probably got a handsome pay deal. I don't think that is the case anymore due to the change in circumstances. I feel that it is inevitable that there is going to be a lot of blowback to railway workers.

 

[alxndr]

Or how about there are two routes - ECML and WCML - which happen to have termini 10 minutes walk from each other, but are otherwise completely unrelated? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples which could be presented like that, but where they are actually completely unrelated, and for perfectly good reasons.

Not least, as an ECML user, I would be pretty hacked off if the King's Cross S&T team were called to a WCML incident, and as a result unable to deal with something 10 minutes later on the ECML.

I work outside the industry, but see how workforce estimates for maintenance teams are prepared. They're based on understanding an area of coverage, and having enough people to cover when something kicks off. That's based on averages, with allowance for the reality that when things go wrong, they really go wrong.

How it works in that particular location I don't know, but wherever I've worked (in S&T) it's always been that although you'd predominantly stick to your patch if a neighbouring patch was in need of assistance then you would be called to go there.

It would generally be weighed up what the risk of leaving your patch would be (e.g. is the benefit to going worth risking leaving your patch uncovered, or does your patch have a second team on who can cover it?), and a COSS might be found for that patch with local knowledge.

I would not try to refuse going anywhere as long as I either felt I had sufficient local knowledge of that area, or had a COSS provided. The furthest I have been asked to go was some 66 miles from my depot, and I would have gone, however it was decided that it wasn't worth the risk of leaving my patch uncovered.

 

[matacaster]

No my point is that using train drivers in cartoons will cause people next week to get angry at rmt workers because they think everyone in the rail industry earns more than them and shouldn't be so unhappy with 56k a year. That is a very tidy wage, one I would certainly aspire to. I believe everyone in the whole country deserves a payrise at the moment but those earning 20k are more of a priority than those on 60k. That doesn't mean a payrise shouldn't be granted, but that someone on a lower wage should perhaps receive a higher percentage pay rise. (They might both get an extra 2k a year but to the person on 20k than is a 10% pay rise while to the 60k earner it is only a 3.3% pay rise).

You have correctly pointed out that those at the bottom of the wage scale are the ones likely to suffer most, either thru redundancy (seeking no compulsory redundancies is daft if some members of staff can't do a different job eg they can't pass a necessary exam) or because the actual cash value is insignificant.

Why don't the unions suggest a formula where perhaps the lowest paid workers get a fixed extra amount rather than a percentage or as you suggest a higher percentage?

As there are are more than one union involved and they both want to make a claim talking directly to the govt, wouldnt it make lots of sense for the unions to agree a joint negotiating position (which would avoid leapfrogging claims)?

 

[windingroad]

The clear an obvious solution is to cull all the high paid senior managers. Since everyone keeps doing salary comparisons, NR senior management are well above averages for their jobs. Why does the head of NR warrent 500k plus. This is not a fortune 500 company making billions, creating world class innovations and contributing to GDP. he and others are hypocritical scoundrels.

I don't feel qualified to comment on senior managers, as I don't really know how important their roles are and others here will be much better informed. Cutting layers of management is a popular approach but it isn't a panacea and sometimes those layers of are there because they need to be. And on the GDP point, although the railways don't generate profit, they definitely do contribute to GDP on an enormous scale.