Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[AM9]

TPE needed the 125mph capability for York - Darlington, there was no provision 100mph paths in the May 22 (now May 23) timetable on the ECML. The same argument couldn’t be used in favour of 810s on Liverpool - Nottingham.

This assumption that Hitachi AT300 units are the solution to all services just because they are bimode could end up constraining the capacity of sections of routes where local services are provided by rambling regional stock. There is a growing need for (say), 23m EDMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors to enable such a dual role to be served. Typically, if the Hitachi AT200 was configured as such it might become very useful in many parts of the network where regional services use sections of line where intensive local demand exists.
This might be a topic for a separate thread.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Why 2024? They are being built now, testing starts soon at the factory. 2023 is a realistic entry date

Look how long it's taking for Class 701, 777, 196, 230 to enter service. I think 2024 or late 2023 is most realistic. Even if one gets delivered now be at least a year testing and training.

 

[JonathanH]

Even if one gets delivered now be at least a year testing and training.

Not to mention the approval process from the union for their members to work the trains.

 

[class397tpe]

This assumption that Hitachi AT300 units are the solution to all services just because they are bimode could end up constraining the capacity of sections of routes where local services are provided by rambling regional stock. There is a growing need for (say), 23m EDMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors to enable such a dual role to be served. Typically, if the Hitachi AT200 was configured as such it might become very useful in many parts of the network where regional services use sections of line where intensive local demand exists.
This might be a topic for a separate thread.

I mean... Would flirts fit the bill? TFW has shown you can have 1/3 2/3 doors and they are pretty modular

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Look how long it's taking for Class 701, 777, 196, 230 to enter service. I think 2024 or late 2023 is most realistic. Even if one gets delivered now be at least a year testing and training.

Yes the coaches are shorter but the traction system is the same as other 8xx so shouldn't need to have full type certification but no doubt because of the disparate way things are done across the industry it will.

 

[QSK19]

I mean... Would flirts fit the bill? TFW has shown you can have 1/3 2/3 doors and they are pretty modular

I doubt the DfT would be so generous towards EMR! The same logic when it comes to authorising more 810s - they must have authorised the 33 on order through gritted teeth given that they had to throw something our way as a sop for cancelled electrification (I am surprised, though, that they didn’t tell EMR to stick with the 222s anyway).

 

[AM9]

I doubt the DfT would be so generous towards EMR! The same logic when it comes to authorising more 810s - they must have authorised the 33 on order through gritted teeth given that they had to throw something our way as a sop for cancelled electrification (I am surprised, though, that they didn’t tell EMR to stick with the 222s anyway).

Pushing yet more versions of IETs justifies what a good decision they made to go with the original purchases inr the first place, (in their own minds at least).

 

[Snow1964]

This assumption that Hitachi AT300 units are the solution to all services just because they are bimode could end up constraining the capacity of sections of routes where local services are provided by rambling regional stock. There is a growing need for (say), 23m EDMUs with 1/3, 2/3 doors to enable such a dual role to be served. Typically, if the Hitachi AT200 was configured as such it might become very useful in many parts of the network where regional services use sections of line where intensive local demand exists.
This might be a topic for a separate thread.

Without going off topic, the 810s are clearly a bodge, basically a shortened long distance train. The shorter vehicles does mean the doors are a bit closer together.

But the second part of your comment, a bi-mode for long cross country secondary lines is the theme of multiple threads (eg Cardiff-Portsmouth etc) It has been said before that there is currently nothing between intercity high speed and and outer suburban train. And GBR need to order 100+ bi-modes with 110mph (perhaps 90mph on diesel) top speed for the secondary routes.

 

[class397tpe]

Without going off topic, the 810s are clearly a bodge, basically a shortened long distance train. The shorter vehicles does mean the doors are a bit closer together.

But the second part of your comment, a bi-mode for long cross country secondary lines is the theme of multiple threads (eg Cardiff-Portsmouth etc) It has been said before that there is currently nothing between intercity high speed and and outer suburban train. And GBR need to order 100+ bi-modes with 110mph (perhaps 90mph on diesel) top speed for the secondary routes.

Having this speculative train rated for 110mph means you wouldn't have to have the wasted space at the front and rear due to 125mph crash regs right? So they could be even more space efficient, and have gangway connections if required.

Something like that would be perfect for routes like Liverpool - Nottingham, Penzance - Cardiff, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Cardiff - Nottingham, Birmingham - Stanstead, Manchester Airport - the lakes, Scotrail's intercity services... Dare I say even a third-rail version for London Waterloo - Exeter.

Could allow the withdrawal of thirsty HSTs on those services and a big cascade of 158s to replace 156s and even 150s.
Although 158s aren't much newer, they do provide a big passenger experience upgrade over 150s and 156s due to the AC and non-opening windows - so much quieter. Northern also seem to use 158s and 150s interchangeably on a lot of local routes anyway, especially in south yorkshire.

 

[Roast Veg]

What 170s? Liverpool to Nottingham is and will presently remain 158 operated.

"Ought to" refers to my suggestion. I am aware of the current issues with the 158s, which an 810 wouldn't solve.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"Ought to" refers to my suggestion. I am aware of the current issues with the 158s, which an 810 wouldn't solve.

A prominent issue with the 158s is their retention by EMR altogether, but that's another can of worms to open in another thread.

Have the 805/807 fleet somewhat overtaken the 810 in terms of building and testing? I know that the Avanti fleet have begun private testing, despite being ordered later.

 

[Helvellyn]

I don’t really understand that argument in this case. Sometimes they would work to London, and be 125 capable, sometimes to Liverpool and not need that capability. I guess, in fact, it would probably be better for the diesel engines to not have to go over 90mph when doing a Liverpool. An 810 could be diagrammed to work to Liverpool and London in the same day.

Okay, why use a unit with less Standard Class seats than 2x158 units (254 in a 810 versus 292 in 2x158)? Even the planned 47 First Class seats in the 810s only give you 9 more seats overall and you'd either be marketing First Class from a zero base, or running them declassified. The suggestion that the 158s could be run as 5-car or 6-car units is a better way to boost capacity on the Norwich-Liverpool route.

Given there is a view that 33x810s isn't quite enough to avoid overcrowding on some of the EMR InterCity routes I really doubt DfT is going to sign off on more for EMR Regional.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Although 158s aren't much newer, they do provide a big passenger experience upgrade over 150s and 156s due to the AC and non-opening windows

Anecdotally, many passengers (on the GWR refurbished units) remark how nice 'these new trains' are! Never heard that on an IET!

 

[91108]

Okay, why use a unit with less Standard Class seats than 2x158 units (254 in a 810 versus 292 in 2x158)? Even the planned 47 First Class seats in the 810s only give you 9 more seats overall and you'd either be marketing First Class from a zero base, or running them declassified. The suggestion that the 158s could be run as 5-car or 6-car units is a better way to boost capacity on the Norwich-Liverpool route.

Given there is a view that 33x810s isn't quite enough to avoid overcrowding on some of the EMR InterCity routes I really doubt DfT is going to sign off on more for EMR Regional.

I’m not saying 810s are the absolute answer, but as the current situation is a rearrangement of Titanic deckchairs with 158s or whatever, why not build more 810s ? I hate the things but the fact is they are actually something which could be constructed and be operated and maintained. As you say the dft wouldnt sanction it anyway…

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not saying 810s are the absolute answer, but as the current situation is a rearrangement of Titanic deckchairs with 158s or whatever, why not build more 810s ? I hate the things but the fact is they are actually something which could be constructed and be operated and maintained. As you say the dft wouldnt sanction it anyway…

Really, the sensible answer involves the Liverpool route being operated by TPE and interworked with the Cleethorpes using whatever that uses. I don't entirely get why there's such a reticence to do this, particularly now TPE have kept all the 185s.

 

[Killingworth]

Really, the sensible answer involves the Liverpool route being operated by TPE and interworked with the Cleethorpes using whatever that uses. I don't entirely get why there's such a reticence to do this, particularly now TPE have kept all the 185s.

If you had to use TPE South Pennine at present you'd not want them attempting to run any further services. On present performance levels bookmakers could do quite nicely giving odds on how many would be cancelled the day before, on the day and terminated or started short. There's a separate thread for TPE woes.

2 or 3 years ago I'd have agreed. As a passenger a 158 beats a 185 on walk through capability which helps to spread the load and getting a catering trolley down the train but in most other respects the 185 is better.

Nova 3s have been running in training on the route since November but still aren’t appearing in service. If that is an example of how long it takes to introduce nearly new stock imagine how long it will be before new 810s become fully operational!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you had to use TPE South Pennine at present you'd not want them attempting to run any further services. On present performance levels bookmakers could do quite nicely giving odds on how many would be cancelled the day before, on the day and terminated or started short. There's a separate thread for TPE woes.

That TPE are presently having issues isn't really a reason for long-term planning of which TOC operates what.

 

[Killingworth]

That TPE are presently having issues isn't really a reason for long-term planning of which TOC operates what.

True, but down on the platform users are more concerned about trains turning up and running to the published timetable than what class of train and the livery applied. On that score the combined efforts of TPE, EMR and Northern hereabouts results in many unhappy travellers. But this is a digression away from 810s which I look forward to first observing this year, and may be seeing successfully in service in 2023.

 

[Neptune]

I’m not saying 810s are the absolute answer, but as the current situation is a rearrangement of Titanic deckchairs with 158s or whatever, why not build more 810s ? I hate the things but the fact is they are actually something which could be constructed and be operated and maintained. As you say the dft wouldnt sanction it anyway…

How can you hate something that isn’t even built yet?

 

[43102EMR]

How can you hate something that isn’t even built yet?

I think they were referring to the IET family as opposed to specifically the 810s…

 

[Neptune]

I think they were referring to the IET family as opposed to specifically the 810s…

The 810’s are quite different to the previous AT300 fleets so I’m not sure how anyone can say they hate them without sampling them.

 

[Nottingham59]

The 810’s are quite different to the previous AT300 fleets

Just out of interest, in what way are they different? I know they're shorter, and have more engines per unit. What other differences are there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just out of interest, in what way are they different? I know they're shorter, and have more engines per unit. What other differences are there?

Seating - one reason people dislike 80x is the Fainsa Sophia, these will have FISA LEANs.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Seating - one reason people dislike 80x is the Fainsa Sophia, these will have FISA LEANs.

And I tried one the other week...you ain't gonna like them either !

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I tried one the other week...you ain't gonna like them either !

I've used the LEAN on a Greater Anglia FLIRT and I thought it was decent enough, very similar to the Grammer E3000 used on the Desiro. Nothing like the awful Sophia.

 

[QSK19]

Just out of interest, in what way are they different? I know they're shorter, and have more engines per unit. What other differences are there?

This has been discussed to death in these forums and in the rail media; however some differences are:

- Shorter cars (24m versus 26m standard length of 8xx cars) so that a doubled-up service can fit onto the platforms at St Pancras;
- Four diesel engines as you point out in order to keep to Meridian timings;
- Smaller vestibule in order to maximise seating;
- Slightly different nose and light layout;
- Transformer positioning;
- Fisa LEAN seating with EMR’s bespoke design/comfort enhancements.

In fact, it’s been marketed by Hitachi as a different AT300 design.

I’m sure others with more technical knowledge will be able to go into more details regarding transformers, bogies, infrastructure layout, etc.

 

[Nottingham59]

some differences are:

Thank you. So no real difference at all, then. Maybe I misinterpreted the phrase "Quite different" to mean something more significant.

 

[Trainbike46]

Without going off topic, the 810s are clearly a bodge, basically a shortened long distance train. The shorter vehicles does mean the doors are a bit closer together.

But the second part of your comment, a bi-mode for long cross country secondary lines is the theme of multiple threads (eg Cardiff-Portsmouth etc) It has been said before that there is currently nothing between intercity high speed and and outer suburban train. And GBR need to order 100+ bi-modes with 110mph (perhaps 90mph on diesel) top speed for the secondary routes.

This train (a bi-mode for long, secondary lines) with a speed of up to 110 mph does exist: it's the uk flirt (class 755/756 are the current examples), and is pretty flexible to be build in whatever length and layout needed for the route(s).

I don't think we would need to order 100+ though, because hopefully electrification progresses quickly enough that we can replace many old diesels with EMUs directly

 

[91108]

The 810’s are quite different to the previous AT300 fleets so I’m not sure how anyone can say they hate them without sampling them.

I maybe should have used the phrase ; “I don’t like the current iet offerings from a passenger point of view, can’t believe that in the 21st century they can be viewed as an improvement and sincerely hope that the 810 fleet is better than the current offerings like Azumas“, then I decided to use “hate“.
Despite that, I am suggesting that more are built, as the decisions have already been made to order and build the proposed emr fleet.

 

[QSK19]

Thank you. So no real difference at all, then. Maybe I misinterpreted the phrase "Quite different" to mean something more significant.

I think they are different enough for Hitachi to see them as a new AT300 product (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/d...rs-aurora-a-new-hitachi-product/58240.article). This is probably why the Auroras have been designated 810 as opposed to the next number in the 80x series.

I think the main differences will be what Hitachi have done with the “intestines” of the Auroras to compensate for the shorter car length and extra diesel engine - I defer to people with more technical knowledge.