Rail strikes discussion

[Peregrine 4903]

The Tories only interest in the railways is getting HS2/Crossrail finished so they can get to parliament quicker from their constituencies (when they can be bothered to turn up that is).

I don't get comments like this. What about all the Tory MP's that live in the Southern Region. How is Crossrail or HS2 going to help them get to parliament quicker?

 

[HST274]

I believe it is a joke.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I am not convinced the idea of the taxpayer giving a large wedge of cash to BP would really fly would it?

Especially since they are doing exactly the opposite!

well they are doing it indirectly by giving it to consumers to give it back to energy suppliers (so they take a bit of profit) who then pay the likes of BP anyhow but thats OK everyone gets there cut well rich people that run these businesses and more transfer of wealth to them.

By cutting the middle man out of the equation could have saved some overheads and as i say the purpose of it was to keep headline inflation lower to ease pay demands.

 

[jayah]

Can we add £5 billion in start up loan fraud. How about £11 billion in furlough fraud. What about £4 billion in dodgy PPE. Maybe we could add £2 billion in eat out spread it all about fraud.

Please, can we add these, pwetty pwease.

The public wanted test and trace. Test, test, test they said. 100,000 tests a day. A million tests a day. PCR costs a fortune.

Start up fraud was inevitable with lockdowns devised on the fly. People wanted lockdowns and they wanted businesses supported.

Sometimes we get the policies and the consequences we deserve.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The public wanted test and trace. Test, test, test they said. 100,000 tests a day. A million tests a day. PCR costs a fortune.

Start up fraud was inevitable with lockdowns devised on the fly. People wanted lockdowns and they wanted businesses supported.

Sometimes we get the policies and the consequences we deserve.

Im not sure the public wanted another scam to transfer wealth to their mates oh and it was 37B for test, track and trace

 

[Horizon22]

Same as the signaller training pilots that the Southern section of NR thought was a great idea recruiting for G9 jobs. What a waste of money...

It was a mistake but if someone applies and passes the test and the interview you can’t just say no can you? A tricky one because many of these people obviously had their heart in the aviation world and jumped and the chance to go back.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this network rail maintenance in Scotland?

scotrail drivers.

 

[jayah]

There is £30bn available as “fiscal headroom” this could - in theory - be wiped out by inflation but for example; paying 8% to all. NHS staff would cost £10bn

The last 3 year deal under Theresa May cost £3bn I believe.

It will be wiped out ten times over thanks to welfare payments and other automatic stabilisers as the economy tanks.

That is before index linked debt interest.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The whole energy market is mad.

It isn't really a market, nobody does anything with a subsidy or price guarantee. The government owns all of the problems.

They have systematically rigged the market against fossil fuels and we are reaping the whirlwind. There has been almost universal political consensus on this, as with lockdowns which have causes the stop start economy with oil prices gyrating from zero to $120 in two years.

Last summer while Greta was preparing for Glasgow, the Lib Dems were campaigning to bring back the fuel duty escalator.

We do get the policies and consequences we deserve sometimes.

we can find common ground over that

 

[jayah]

I don't get comments like this. What about all the Tory MP's that live in the Southern Region. How is Crossrail or HS2 going to help them get to parliament quicker?

The only reason HS2 has survived austerity and COVID is because of the 'goodies for the North' doctrine.

It is ironic as nobody in Manchester or Liverpool is ever likely to vote for Boris and Jacob, no matter how many goodies they deliver.

A bit like the Mayor of London giving free travel to over 60s and saying 'vote for me' but with added steroids.

 

[JonathanH]

What’s the benefit of not having new members join the pension scheme for 2 years?

Reduces contributions for the employers because of a smaller payroll, and the administrative costs of short service members who leave within two years.

What happened to Auto Enrolment?

Auto Enrolment can be satisfied using a defined contribution scheme, the existing RPS defined benefit schemes may already not be the auto-enrolment schemes in many cases.

You will benefit for additional 3 years of contributions !

Not really. The effect of an increase in retirement age means that someone taking their benefit at 60 just gets less because the early retirement reduction is five years rather than two years.

 

[KM1991]

No it's not Sundays inside for no payment. It as they are now but you have to work them no option to throw them in. So still overtime.

And in a year or two when they bring out more rubbish about the railways finances and mismanagement, they will say why should we pay railway workers any extra for a day that’s included in their working week. This door needs to remain firmly closed. No changes to Sunday working under any circumstance.

 

[jayah]

Reduces contributions for the employers because of a smaller payroll, and the administrative costs of short service members who leave within two years.


Auto Enrolment can be satisfied using a defined contribution scheme, the existing RPS defined benefit schemes may already not be the auto-enrolment schemes in many cases.

Saving admin costs by starting on one scheme and moving to another with different rules after 2 years sounds like an administration nightmare.

If a scheme closes to new members for 2 years, my bet is it won't ever be reopening.

Properly funded with serious contributions c.15% for both employee and employer average salary ought to work, the real scandal is there are lots of public sector schemes where there is no employer funding just an IOU from the taxpayer and the employee contributions are tea money.

 

[Facing Back]

Many studies have shown that productivity drops off a cliff at a certain stage in the day, and the longer your shift is, the less productive you are by the end of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2022 ==


Or they do it because of a toxic, presenteeist culture that sees people start early, leave late, and take no breaks for fear of being seen as a low performer. It's a terrible way to manage a workplace and actually has worse outcomes for productivity.

We have pods for people to take a nap if they need a break. I expect the team to be in the office on their core days and at core hours and they book their meetings around that where then can, change their travel when they can't or just use Teams. I find a lot of emails sent at 7am before they set off or at 7pm when they get home so I'm not all all bothered about not getting the value.

And no, its not people just pressing send.

When we discuss that they dont have to, if the person would leave home at 7am to get a busy train or can leave home at 9.30 and get a faster, quieter one, why we would we care?

We've closed down the Manchester office this week. People who have to be physically present are in London - we booked hotels as soon as we heard the dates.

 

[westv]

What’s the benefit of not having new members join the pension scheme for 2 years?

In the late 70s When I started work at 16 at a previous company I had to wait 9 years until I was 25 until I could join their company pension scheme!

 

[Bald Rick]

Saving admin costs by starting on one scheme and moving to another with different rules after 2 years sounds like an administration nightmare.

It’s worked like that in NR for about A decade, albeit with a 5 year gap rather than 2

 

[Sawasdee]

And in a year or two when they bring out more rubbish about the railways finances and mismanagement, they will say why should we pay railway workers any extra for a day that’s included in their working week. This door needs to remain firmly closed. No changes to Sunday working under any circumstance.

NHS are paid extra for working nights, Saturdays and Sundays and they're all included in their working week.

 

[jayah]

No changes to Sunday working under any circumstance.

Completely untenable position. The railway is 7 days a week and the current arrangements are utterly unsustainable unless pay falls to such an extreme that people go back to wanting overtime.

Your 'best case' is it gets paid as mandatory overtime, the worst is that also disappears as the 35hr week is increased, which they could probably do by adding a couple of hours.

As most people working full time are contracted for more than 35hrs there is unlikely to be much public sympathy, although it would be a double shock to happen in one go.

A day is a long time in politics, but not as far as that lot is from 7% cost of living with no strings.

 

[ComUtoR]

it has just happened in Scotland.

The ScotRail deal only agrees to a 'commitment' to being Sundays within the working week. This could still take another 5yrs. It's very easy to agree to work toward something. It still needs to get over the line.

 

[vicbury]

And in a year or two when they bring out more rubbish about the railways finances and mismanagement, they will say why should we pay railway workers any extra for a day that’s included in their working week. This door needs to remain firmly closed. No changes to Sunday working under any circumstance.

It's a seven-day business. If people want to work Monday-Friday, they can work in a five-day industry. It's not that hard.

 

[Bald Rick]

The ScotRail deal only agrees to a 'commitment' to being Sundays within the working week. This could still take another 5yrs. It's very easy to agree to work toward something. It still needs to get over the line.

a commitment is a commitment though. Acknowledging its 5 years away (maximum).

 

[ComUtoR]

a commitment is a commitment though. Acknowledging its 5 years away (maximum).

Agreed, and I'm happy its a step in the right direction. But it is in no way any agreement to actually bring Sunday inside. Either side could back out in 5yrs time.

Personally I think 'committed Sundays' is where both sides will eventually settle. It's a huge compromise and generally works across the network. I think 'committed Sundays' with tighter caveats is what the future holds. Potentially 'new starter' contracts will slowly phase in Sunday working.

 

[Facing Back]

They should absolutely be paid for things like reading paperwork, as that's something required for their role. Anything your employer asks you to do should be paid time. I have the same objections to retail workers being told they must be on the shop floor five minutes before their shift begins.

We expect call centre staff to log on at the point their shift starts. If they need 10 minutes to catch up on notices before that then so be it. Their break and lunch starts at the moment the log off. Nobody seems at all unhappy. We're very flexible about taking an hour to go to an appointment, sick pay etc. We're up front about it when they join and the remuneration is above similar roles in the company.

So I don't really agree with you.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's a seven-day business. If people want to work Monday-Friday, they can work in a five-day industry. It's not that hard.

It isn't really a 7 day business. It's a solid 5 day business with 2 weird days that run independently.

 

[KM1991]

It's a seven-day business. If people want to work Monday-Friday, they can work in a five-day industry. It's not that hard.

But you people always cry that railway staff knew what they signed up for when they applied for the job? Yeah, they did, Sunday not included in the working week. But now you want it both ways?? How much compensation should staff get on to the basic pay for the implementation of Sunday working?

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed, and I'm happy its a step in the right direction. But it is in no way any agreement to actually bring Sunday inside. Either side could back out in 5yrs time.

Personally I think 'committed Sundays' is where both sides will eventually settle. It's a huge compromise and generally works across the network. I think 'committed Sundays' with tighter caveats is what the future holds. Potentially 'new starter' contracts will slowly phase in Sunday working.

it is very specifically ‘a commitment to bring Sundays into the working week’. That means it is happening, and Sundays will be in the 35hours. Future discussion will be around how it happens, not if.

 

[1E67]

The Scotrail deal is a commitment to ‘negotiate’ Sundays as part of the working week within 5 years.

Exact wording is…

‘JWP to look at Sundays being part of working week any changes will be subject to negotiations by December 2027 as per the ASLEF charter.’

 

[Facing Back]

Oh, stop it. This is an utterly infantilising way to treat any worker. I manage people and I do not spend any time tapping my watch like this. I trust them to get the job done well and not to take the piss, and never once have I had a problem. If they've taken slightly longer to take a break (for example) I trust that they did so because they needed to.

I totally agree

 

[ComUtoR]

it is very specifically ‘a commitment to bring Sundays into the working week’. That means it is happening, and Sundays will be in the 35hours. Future discussion will be around how it happens, not if.

You and I both know that this is wishful thinking. I would 100% hope that Sundays are fully in the working week within 5yrs. But you and I both know that it still needs to be agreed. In 5yrs time there still could be no agreement.

 

[Facing Back]

12hr shifts are manifestly unproductive and fatiguing.

But the unions like them, because the extra days off (35hr/wk) become rest days, while banging the drum about safety - only when it suits them.

Office workers are falling asleep at their desks by 3pm, so I hear...

All I really know about 12 hour shifts are from nurses. I spent a lot of time chatting them a little while ago and asked this a lot - every single one of them preferred the 12 hour shifts and 3 day weeks.

I have to say I was surprised but you live and learn.

And I was a bloke in a bed with a nurse in my room, not a management consultant who was asking leading questions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==

Exactly. People are happier, and do better work, when they feel respected and valued as human beings. The moment you start demanding every single minute of their day is accounted for, you're a guard, not a manager.

Agreed. But you need a culture of respect and trust for this to work. If expectations are different or one side (I don't like sides but for the purposes of debate...) is seem to be taking the p**s then applying more and more control is quite normal and a very vicious circle which can be hard to break. There is a difference between managing and leading too which hasn't been discussed here.

My experience is that a bit of give and take on both sides and a clear understanding - on both sides - of what is really important to each (key drivers) are so all can participate and be rewarded - both financially and through satisfaction.

The only reason I expect people like call centre staff to be on the phone bang on time is so that we can handle customer calls - otherwise someone on the earlier shift stays online a bit longer which happens but isnt really fair if its continual or one sided.

Other than that I couldn't give a monkeys about the minute by minute of the vast majority of professional staff.

But I don't have to make the trains run on time....