Rail strikes discussion

[jayah]

I’m not that interested in discussing anything with someone who clearly takes what’s printed in those newspapers at face value, no.

What would be the point? Closed minds cannot be changed!

You aren't interested in discussing substance, because you don't like either source of the same information, but I have a closed mind!

 

[Efini92]

That is a big issue!

If you have a £59k salary, 35hrs contracted and each shift begins and ends with 17mins walking time, 10mins to prepare or shut down and 15mins at the start to read paperwork, that is a massive cost and the vast majority of it is fabricated allowances for things that don't happen.

Can I have 17 mins walking time please?
Would you rather train crew didn’t read the “paper work” and have another incident like Nuneaton or colwich?

 

[windingroad]

If you have a £59k salary, 35hrs contracted and each shift begins and ends with 17mins walking time, 10mins to prepare or shut down and 15mins at the start to read paperwork, that is a massive cost and the vast majority of it is fabricated allowances for things that don't happen.

They should absolutely be paid for things like reading paperwork, as that's something required for their role. Anything your employer asks you to do should be paid time. I have the same objections to retail workers being told they must be on the shop floor five minutes before their shift begins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When do you think a break should start ?

In my book if you're on a break you have no work responsibilities at that time and could theoretically walk out of the door for all of it even if you choose not to. Thus if you're keyed in on a unit you're not on a break, though I'm not sure about including walking to a messroom because you could* take it somewhere else instead e.g. the bench on the platform. The other "nuances" are perhaps a bit more awkward and just come down to what is agreed.

* If you are required to take it somewhere specific, e.g. sitting on the bench by your unit wouldn't be acceptable, then getting to that place isn't part of the break, I'd say. It's a bit moot in offices, though, because even in the case of ours where eating lunch is not allowed at your desk, it's probably 20-30 seconds to walk from desk to break room, and in office work nobody other than very bad management bothers quibbling to that extent, it's like counting how many sheets of bog roll each person used. Whereas the railway runs strictly to the clock so it's all a bit different.

 

[jayah]

When do you think a break should start ?

When the train is booked to arrive When it actually arrives
When the driver takes the key off
When the train ianshut down fully
When the Driver arrives at the crew room
When the Driver is off the platform

How long should the break be ?

30 mins paid
1hr unpaid
20 minutes cab environment

Am I allowed to work through that break ? Is it fixed or flexible ?

As already stated. That article is VERY misleading.

I can tell you if a break starts when a driver gets to a messroom, they will walk very slowly indeed.

If it starts 15mins after the train arrives at the platform, they will be through the barriers before most of the commuters.

The article didn't even argue the point about walking time, but if it takes 4mins you don't get paid for 15.

 

[ComUtoR]

and the vast majority of it is fabricated allowances for things that don't happen.

Which ones are those ?

I get 6 minutes to "book on". Are you aware what that is actually for and how important those 6 minutes are ? Or is it just a fabricated allowance ?

 

[High Dyke]

are there proposals to have multi skilled maintenance staff? Or just multi skilled teams, ie teams with different skills in them?

Local Network Rail management advised it was multi-skilled staff. Perhaps what they said and what they meant were different? Probably a bit like being told that Operations staff wouldn't be subject to cuts in staffing, but then stating that the Digital Railway programme is progressing with further signalling locations planned to close.

 

[jayah]

They should absolutely be paid for things like reading paperwork, as that's something required for their role. Anything your employer asks you to do should be paid time. I have the same objections to retail workers being told they must be on the shop floor five minutes before their shift begins.

Does anyone actually spend all of that time reading notices?

Which ones are those ?

I get 6 minutes to "book on". Are you aware what that is actually for and how important those 6 minutes are ? Or is it just a fabricated allowance ?

If you read the article you'll find out.

 

[Wolfie]

To be fair good breaks are an essential to keeping an attentive and productive workforce. Too many office workers scoff a sandwich at their desk and are then dozing off by 3pm. A full lunch hour for time to get food and go for a walk round the block improve productivity no end. Personally, if very busy, I prefer to work late than give up my lunch break.

That l wholly agree. Unfortunately in the Civil Service lunchtime meetings are increasingly scheduled.

 

[windingroad]

I can tell you if a break starts when a driver gets to a messroom, they will walk very slowly indeed.

Oh, stop it. This is an utterly infantilising way to treat any worker. I manage people and I do not spend any time tapping my watch like this. I trust them to get the job done well and not to take the piss, and never once have I had a problem. If they've taken slightly longer to take a break (for example) I trust that they did so because they needed to.

 

[Efini92]

I can tell you if a break starts when a driver gets to a messroom, they will walk very slowly indeed.

If it starts 15mins after the train arrives at the platform, they will be through the barriers before most of the commuters.

The article didn't even argue the point about walking time, but if it takes 4mins you don't get paid for 15.

The allowance is the allowance, you don’t get longer if you walk slower.

 

[43066]

A strike is supposed to be following one of the fundamental principles of democracy - a right to defend your beliefs, and to act as an individual. How sad that people can't respect that.

This is precisely why people tend not to like strike breakers…

The second part of your response implies that you would not ordinarily report safety of the line incidents if you had non-contingent staff working your train. That is a very dodgy thing to post on a social media site, as you are effectively admitting to negligence. You should be reporting dispatch against a red, or similar, regardless of who is working your train.

I’ve not said anything of the sort. I have an element of discretion - if the guard is incompetent I can certainly refuse to continue with them.

You aren't interested in discussing substance, because you don't like either source of the same information, but I have a closed mind!

They aren’t sources of accurate information, but propaganda for the small minded. You seem to be utterly obsessed with walking time - has it occurred to you that it’s required to make a robust timetable?

What do you do yourself for work, out of interest?

the vast majority of it is fabricated allowances for things that don't happen.

Is it? How do you know? Is that based on actual knowledge, or something you’ve read in the Daily Mail?

I can tell you if a break starts when a driver gets to a messroom, they will walk very slowly indeed.

How can you tell us anything of the sort? Are you a train driver yourself? Do you actually know any? Or is this also just something you’ve seen in the Mail…

 

[baz962]

There are people who do that to get off early and people who do that because they have too much to be doing.

Most people could get 30mins outdoors if they wanted, it certainly shouldn't be frowned on. But nor does it need 30mins +5 to lock the computer, 5 to unlock and 7 each way to get downstairs, oh and the break becomes paid if you say hi to someone on the way.

Like seems to happen on the railway.

The walking time etc is to ensure a minimum break and so safety critical staff are not rushing and to have time to read safety notices . Perhaps you would like safety to be reduced.

 

[ComUtoR]

I can tell you if a break starts when a driver gets to a messroom, they will walk very slowly indeed.

Which is one of the reasons why 'walking time' is limited. They would not be permitted to walk slowly. The time is fixed to prevent abuse.

If it starts 15mins after the train arrives at the platform, they will be through the barriers before most of the commuters.

Which IS what happens. My break starts 10 minutes after arrival. Regardless of anything.

The article didn't even argue the point about walking time, but if it takes 4mins you don't get paid for 15.

I can walk ours within about 3 minutes but we are given a blanket 10. Do you understand what a blanket walking time is ?

 

[Need2]

Football clubs spend 70%+, your point is?

Take a guess Sherlock?
The last time I looked, football clubs are private companies so can do as they please.

 

[ComUtoR]

Does anyone actually spend all of that time reading notices?

Yes. It's a core part of our duties. There is am RAIB report that may have some significance if you want.

If you read the article you'll find out

I have, which is why I know it's full of [insert proverbial]

 

[jayah]

I have. You said:





What evidence do you have that there would be no S&T or Pway cover until the service ended?


If you feel 12hour shifts are too much, then speak to your LOM, and your rep, about introducing 8hour shifts. I don’t think you will get much support from your colleagues.

12hr shifts are manifestly unproductive and fatiguing.

But the unions like them, because the extra days off (35hr/wk) become rest days, while banging the drum about safety - only when it suits them.

Office workers are falling asleep at their desks by 3pm, so I hear...

 

[Wolfie]

Oh, stop it. This is an utterly infantilising way to treat any worker. I manage people and I do not spend any time tapping my watch like this. I trust them to get the job done well and not to take the piss, and never once have I had a problem. If they've taken slightly longer to take a break (for example) I trust that they did so because they needed to.

Agreed. Treat people like decent adults and most will respond appropriately. As a manager you then deal with those who don't.

 

[windingroad]

Office workers are falling asleep at their desks by 3pm, so I hear...

That was in the context of workers not receiving adequate breaks, which is something you seem to be dead against for railway workers!

 

[jayah]

Take a guess Sherlock?
The last time I looked, football clubs are private companies so can do as they please.

The RMT need to catch up with the National Union of Footballers and the National Federation of Investment Bankers and figure out how these 'workers collective' function.

Might have something to do with those people being super-productive while the unions think anything that makes their workers more productive will make them poorer and must be opposed at all costs.

 

[43066]

The RMT need to catch up with the National Union of Footballers and the National Federation of Investment Bankers and figure out how these 'workers collective' function.

Might have something to do with those people being super-productive while the unions think anything that makes their workers more productive will make them poorer and must be opposed at all costs.

What job do you do yourself, please?

 

[dk1]

When transforming from 90/DVT to 745 operation our signing on time dropped from 17 to 15 minutes. Never quite understood why as still have to check notices, get across to the station & walk the equivalent of 12 coaches before setting up the cab. Only difference I can see is not having to check the back cab or speak to the guard as they now ring us 3mins before departure to confirm they’re onboard.

 

[jayah]

That was in the context of workers not receiving adequate breaks, which is something you seem to be dead against for railway workers!

Neither I nor the articles (which many people obviously haven't read) had anything against breaks, just inflated allowances for fictitious activity.

If it doesn't take 17mins to walk there, you shouldn't be paid 17mins to do so.

Not sure why that is proving difficult to get across?

I will argue that anyone contracted to just 35hr a week does not need the actual break to be paid.

 

[windingroad]

Agreed. Treat people like decent adults and most will respond appropriately. As a manager you then deal with those who don't.

Exactly. People are happier, and do better work, when they feel respected and valued as human beings. The moment you start demanding every single minute of their day is accounted for, you're a guard, not a manager.

 

[Need2]

The RMT need to catch up with the National Union of Footballers and the National Federation of Investment Bankers and figure out how these 'workers collective' function.

Might have something to do with those people being super-productive while the unions think anything that makes their workers more productive will make them poorer and must be opposed at all costs.

Nothing funnier than the ramblings of a bitter person with limited knowledge of what they are rambling about.

 

[jayah]

That was in the context of workers not receiving adequate breaks, which is something you seem to be dead against for railway workers!

When have I argued against people taking breaks?

I have argued in favour of breaks, and against 12hr shifts that unions and 'signalling colleagues' all support.

Do try to keep up.

 

[windingroad]

If it doesn't take 17mins to walk there, you shouldn't be paid 17mins to do so.

Will you be requiring everyone to carry stopwatches?

 

[Mike Machin]

The map I have seen published in the media over the last few days, depicting the routes still operating on strike days certainly tells a story.
With my taxpayers hat on, I’m beginning to think these are the routes that should remain open for passenger traffic, with the remainder closing permanently and replaced by alternative transport.
With working from home, teleconferencing and electric road vehicles we certainly won’t need a passenger network even remotely the size it currently is going forward.
I think the unions should think very carefully if they would like to see on-going employment for their members. Remember, the NUM today now has fewer than 100 members!

 

[ComUtoR]

In my book if you're on a break you have no work... (And some other stuff)

You're probably not gonna like this, and I was creeped out a little bit too but....

I agree with what you said !

 

[jayah]

Nothing funnier than the ramblings of a bitter person with limited knowledge of what they are rambling about.

Says someone who doesn't understand the artificially inflated walking allowances they have spent their career manufacturing, actually make their members poorer.

As per the careers devoted to campaigning to have a monopoly buyer of their labour...

Unions vs economics vs reality.