What route may the HS2 Marsden spur take?

[Worm]

Does anyone have a diagram or map which shows the planned route of the HS2 Marsden spur route through Greater Manchester in detail?

I’m particularly interested to see which parts of GM it will pass through.

 

[stuu]

Does anyone have a diagram or map which shows the planned route of the HS2 Marsden spur route through Greater Manchester in detail?

I’m particularly interested to see which parts of GM it will pass through.

Nothing detailed is in the public domain (AFAIK)

 

[Sonik]

Nothing detailed is in the public domain (AFAIK)

The HS2 detailed plans do show the flyover box at the tunnel mouth by Ardwick, with stubs for the NPR alignment pointing roughly towards Guide Bridge

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../2DE01-MWJ-CV-DPP-M003-320059_watermarked.pdf

Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.

 

[Nottingham59]

I understand the line from Ardwick to Guide Bridge used to be four-track, so it seems likely that they will re-quad that alignment. After that I think there are basically two options.

1. Dig a tunnel from Guide Bridge all the way to Marsden. The natural place for the Western tunnel portal seems to me to be just to the East of Guide Bridge station, on land currently occupied by Brookings sidings and the Freightliner Wagon Maintenance facility. The Eastern portal would most likely be to the East of the old Standedge tunnel mouth, to allow a less curved path into Marsden station.
2. Try to follow the line of the old railway that used to run between Stalybridge and the Standedge Tunnels, parallel to the current line, tunneling wherever the old track bed is not longer available. This would involve tunnelling from Guide Bridge to just east of Stalybridge; running up the east side of the river Tame; tunnelling under part of Mossley; running on the old alignment through Greenfield and Uppermill (perhaps in Green Tunnels to reduce noise); and rejoining the current railway alignment before Diggle. Then new bores parallel to Standedge. See this map for the route: https://maps.nls.uk/view/197236091

Apart from these two, I don't see what other options there are. I might start a thread in the Speculative Discussion forum to explore the options in a bit more detail.

 

[tomuk]

The Eastern portal would most likely be to the East of the old Standedge tunnel mouth, to allow a less curved path into Marsden station.

I would suggest that the field to the east of Marsden Station containing the Marsden Skate Park would be the best location for the portal it would avoid any complications of the tunnel site.

 

[snowball]

Previous discussion in this thread under Speculative:

Potential options for the proposed high speed line from Manchester towards Leeds

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/publication-of-integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands.224967/ e[.] I don't believe they have found a surface route all the way to Marsden. Isn't the IPR basically saying "this is the kind of connectivity we need, go and...

www.railforums.co.uk

There's also this one on capacity Marsden-Huddersfield:

How to solve capacity issues between Marsden and Huddersfield?

The capacity issue between Marsden and Huddersfield is similar to that between Ravensthorpe and Leeds after completion of the four-tracking from Huddersfield. The 8TPH of fasts doesn't have to be regular, it can include a couple of longer gaps for a stopper in between. Assuming electrification...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nottingham59]

the field to the east of Marsden Station containing the Marsden Skate Park would be the best location for the portal

If that's the field and carpark to the east of Marsden station, then yes that makes a lot of sense.

Previous discussion

Thank you.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I understand the line from Ardwick to Guide Bridge used to be four-track, so it seems likely that they will re-quad that alignment. After that…

1. Try to follow the line of the old railway that used to run between Stalybridge and the Standedge Tunnels, parallel to the current line, tunneling wherever the old track bed is not longer available. This would involve tunnelling from Guide Bridge to just east of Stalybridge; running up the east side of the river Tame; tunnelling under part of Mossley; running on the old alignment through Greenfield and Uppermill (perhaps in Green Tunnels to reduce noise); and rejoining the current railway alignment before Diggle. Then new bores parallel to Standedge. See this map for the route: https://maps.nls.uk/view/197236091

Apart from these two, I don't see what other options there are. I might start a thread in the Speculative Discussion forum to explore the options in a bit more detail.

ah, so beyond stalybridge are you thinking the former Micklehurst Loop as the current formation has always been two track. That would make some sense as a lot of the formation is still extant all the way to the entrances to standedge tunnel although there are some significant gaps where viaducts have been lost and tunnels infilled

 

[edwin_m]

A route via Guide Bridge would be just as long as the existing one and if it continued via Micklehurst it would be just as slow too. I suggest anything other than a reasonably straight line through the Oldham area (mostly in tunnel) would be another betrayed promise for the North!

 

[Nottingham59]

the former Micklehurst Loop

Thank you. I didn't know what it was called. Most of it now seems to be footpaths (one called "Yellow Brick Road"), so I imagine there will be significant local opposition if they decide to route NPR that way.

via Guide Bridge would be just as long as the existing one and if it continued via Micklehurst it would be just as slow too. I suggest anything other than a reasonably straight line through the Oldham area (mostly in tunnel) would be another betrayed promise for the North!

Ardwick to Marsden Skate Park is just 15 miles as the crow flies, and just 16 miles if that crow goes via Guide Bridge Station, so it's not all that far out of the way.

And yes, the Micklehurst Loop is curved, but I reckon that the tightest curve has a radius of about 900m, which corresponds to a maximum speed of around 90mph. That doesn't seem too much of a sacrifice to use an existing alignment for a route where the top speed is unlikely to be more than 110mph* anyway. NPR Livepool-Leeds certainly doesn't need TGV speeds or HS2 levels of straightness.

*EDIT: Except for the HS2 bit between Lymm and Manchester Airport, which is designed for 230kph maximum speed (=140mph)

 

[YorksLad12]

I'd say it depends on whether you want to run via / call at Stalybridge or Ashton-under-Lyne (north Stalybridge). Call at either would affect your angle of attack; calling at neither gives you more scope to tunnel.

 

[Sonik]

Thank you. I didn't know what it was called. Most of it now seems to be footpaths (one called "Yellow Brick Road"), so I imagine there will be significant local opposition if they decide to route NPR that way.

Ardwick to Marsden Skate Park is just 15 miles as the crow flies, and just 16 miles if that crow goes via Guide Bridge Station, so it's not all that far out of the way.

And yes, the Micklehurst Loop is curved, but I reckon that the tightest curve has a radius of about 900m, which corresponds to a maximum speed of around 90mph. That doesn't seem too much of a sacrifice to use an existing alignment for a route where the top speed is unlikely to be more than 110mph anyway. NPR Livepool-Leeds certainly doesn't need TGV speeds or HS2 levels of straightness.

A series of short tunnels would be much cheaper than a single tunnel - a lot of the cost of the HS2 tunnels is due to the vent shafts, and these can be (mostly) avoided with shorter tunnels. Cut and cover 'green' tunnels are cheaper too.

From various things I've read, the main goal seems to be capacity rather than achieving the highest speed alignment. So re-use of some of the existing alignment with infill tunnels as you suggest would make a lot of sense.

 

[edwin_m]

Ardwick to Marsden Skate Park is just 15 miles as the crow flies, and just 16 miles if that crow goes via Guide Bridge Station, so it's not all that far out of the way.

If the crow follows the approximate route of the existing railways and the Micklehurst Loop it's nearer 18 miles. I can't see online OS mapping as I'm overseas, but I doubt the speeds on the Micklehurst Loop would be much different from via Greenfield.

 

[Worm]

A route via Guide Bridge would be just as long as the existing one and if it continued via Micklehurst it would be just as slow too. I suggest anything other than a reasonably straight line through the Oldham area (mostly in tunnel) would be another betrayed promise for the North!

Looking at the maps available in the public domain it appears they plan to cut straight through Oldham in some capacity, which is what peaked my interest.

Only problem I can foresee with a tunnel is that we’re famous for mines as well as cotton mills. There’s still a lot of old capped off mines under residential areas in Oldham.

 

[Revaulx]

If the crow follows the approximate route of the existing railways and the Micklehurst Loop it's nearer 18 miles. I can't see online OS mapping as I'm overseas, but I doubt the speeds on the Micklehurst Loop would be much different from via Greenfield.

The Micklehurst Loop was a lot less bendy than the original (and surviving) line.

I really don’t think that restoring it as a surface railway would be viable though. The area is a lot more built up than it was when it was abandoned in the mid-60s.

Looking at the maps available in the public domain it appears they plan to cut straight through Oldham in some capacity, which is what peaked my interest.

Only problem I can foresee with a tunnel is that we’re famous for mines as well as cotton mills. There’s still a lot of old capped off mines under residential areas in Oldham.

Yay - a deep level underground station in downtown Oldham

 

[CdBrux]

Looking at the maps available in the public domain it appears they plan to cut straight through Oldham in some capacity

which maps are these?

 

[snowball]

The Micklehurst Loop was a lot less bendy than the original (and surviving) line.

To me the two lines always look much of a muchness on OS mapping.


I assume NPR would have no stations between Piccadilly and where it rejoins the existing line near Marsden.

 

[Worm]

Looking at the maps available in the public domain it appears they plan to cut straight through Oldham in some capacity, which is what peaked my interest.

Only problem I can foresee with a tunnel is that we’re famous for mines as well as cotton mills. There’s still a lot of old capped off mines under residential areas in Oldham.

I found them on Google Images, appears to be made by a volunteer:

Northern Powerhouse Rail - Wikiwand

Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR), sometimes referred to unofficially as High Speed 3, is a proposed major rail programme designed to substantially enhance the eco...

www.wikiwand.com

 

[Nottingham59]

I found them on Google Images

That appears to be a copy of a diagram from a 2017 NPR brochure: https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-booklet-FINAL.pdf



It's just a schematic: and the proposed route via Bradford has definitely been dropped.

EDIT: And we do know that whatever is built will go via Marsden.

 

[matacaster]

Looking at the maps available in the public domain it appears they plan to cut straight through Oldham in some capacity, which is what peaked my interest.

Only problem I can foresee with a tunnel is that we’re famous for mines as well as cotton mills. There’s still a lot of old capped off mines under residential areas in Oldham.

A railway line thru middle of Oldham at Street level might be an Improvement.

 

[Bald Rick]

A series of short tunnels would be much cheaper than a single tunnel - a lot of the cost of the HS2 tunnels is due to the vent shafts, and these can be (mostly) avoided with shorter tunnels

tunnel portals are rather expensive too, as is moving TBMs around…

anyway, as I mentioned on another thread, the answer is going to be tunnel nearly the whole way from Ardwick to Marsden.

 

[Sonik]

tunnel portals are rather expensive too, as is moving TBMs around…

anyway, as I mentioned on another thread, the answer is going to be tunnel nearly the whole way from Ardwick to Marsden.

True, but for a short bore you can use one TBM and double back, like at Long Itchington.

A couple of 2-5km tunnels with surface sections is still likely to be quite a bit cheaper than going the full 24km by tunnel. The logistics of building a tunnel get exponentially more complex the longer it gets, because all the lining segments, spoil etc. has to go in and out the full length of the tunnel. If a (mostly) surface alignment wasn't a lot cheaper, I'd suggest a lot more of HS2 would have been tunneled, simply to avoid objections?

But I guess we will see in time what option gets selected.

 

[edwin_m]

True, but for a short bore you can use one TBM and double back, like at Long Itchington.

It doesn't double back, it is dismantled and returned to the start to make the second bore in the same direction. That way the various equipment needed to feed it from behind can stay in the same place. In any case, I suspect turning it through 180 degrees would be about as complicated as moving it a mile or two.

Assuming it's a realistic transport solution not a political gesture, I'd expect a majority in tunnel but maybe short open sections at the longest separation that avoids additional evacuation measures. That would be one or two between Ardwick and Marsden I think.

 

[DoubleO]

Interesting from an engineering point of view, but does anyone genuinely think this will be built? There's absolutely no chance imho

 

[Sonik]

Interesting from an engineering point of view, but does anyone genuinely think this will be built? There's absolutely no chance imho

Its more likely than a 24km tunnel, which is never going to happen!

But yes, there is every possibility that 'NPR' will comprise simply of upgrades to existing lines, four tracked where space is available.

The original options list from TfN did state 'upgrades akin to a new line' and that was what was selected.

 

[Kipperthecat]

Interesting from an engineering point of view, but does anyone genuinely think this will be built? There's absolutely no chance imho

As per original post , getting to Guide Bridge is relatively easy. A tunnel would be the best option , but not the cheapest and not without its own problems.
Walk along the canal from Guide Bridge to Marsden and you criss cross both the railway and river Tame numerous times, so this is the age old problem. The Micklefield loop just follows the valley , but on the other side to the current route. Reopening this would create capacity and could , theoretically, be used by TPE services as well (so stopping services could continue to serve Greenfield & Mossley and increase freight capacity). Some of this line has been built upon (a few houses in the Uppermill area) but the VAST majority hasn’t.

I therefore think the cheapest best solution would be

1. New double line from Ardwick HS2 to just west of Guide Bridge station
2. A tunnel/ flyover to allow services to have a higher speed at Guide Bridge.
3. Use current alignment (maybe bi-di it or “single line” the Up Huddersfield, to access the south side of Stalybridge (running through what is currently platform 1) and onto the Micklefield loop.

 

[StretfordEnd96]

Can I echo what a few are saying about the Micklehurst Loop and there being no chance of it being used in any way shape or form

All viaducts and one of the tunnels have been completely demolished.

While it's not too difficult to re-instate some these, there are issues -

When the Royal George tunnel was infilled the whole road junction at its North portal was completely re-lanscaped and redeveloped

What people seem to forget is not only did Greenfield have two separate viaducts but it also had a number of huge embankments hoisting the railway above street level, all which have been demolished and new housing is now far too close to these

In Uppermill, not only are there new houses almost encroaching onto the former line ("Greave Park", to be specific, amongst others) but there is also a fully fledged Leisure Centre built right on the line

The Butterhouse tunnel still exists but it's southern portal was landscaped beyond recognition in the 1980s

^All of the above goes with the fact the whole line is a bridleway/cycleway (most of which through Uppermill and Greenfield is the Pennine Bridleway)

So while some people are in the belief that the line is 'extant' and just requires a couple of new viaducts and caring to here and there the detailed reality is far from that and it'd just seem silly going anywhere near it

 

[Kipperthecat]

Can I echo what a few are saying about the Micklehurst Loop and there being no chance of it being used in any way shape or form

All viaducts and one of the tunnels have been completely demolished.

While it's not too difficult to re-instate some these, there are issues -

When the Royal George tunnel was infilled the whole road junction at its North portal was completely re-lanscaped and redeveloped

What people seem to forget is not only did Greenfield have two separate viaducts but it also had a number of huge embankments hoisting the railway above street level, all which have been demolished and new housing is now far too close to these

In Uppermill, not only are there new houses almost encroaching onto the former line ("Greave Park", to be specific, amongst others) but there is also a fully fledged Leisure Centre built right on the line

The Butterhouse tunnel still exists but it's southern portal was landscaped beyond recognition in the 1980s

^All of the above goes with the fact the whole line is a bridleway/cycleway (most of which through Uppermill and Greenfield is the Pennine Bridleway)

So while some people are in the belief that the line is 'extant' and just requires a couple of new viaducts and caring to here and there the detailed reality is far from that and it'd just seem silly going anywhere near it

‘Could’ be done though if it there is the will (it obviously was done once). We are talking about 5 miles or so , hardly insurmountable when they are going from London to Manchester … or as I said originally , new straight tunnel from Stalybridge to Marsden.

 

[Revaulx]

A railway line thru middle of Oldham at Street level might be an Improvement.

Well yes, but it would have some horrific gradients.

‘Could’ be done though if it there is the will (it obviously was done once). We are talking about 5 miles or so , hardly insurmountable when they are going from London to Manchester … or as I said originally , new straight tunnel from Stalybridge to Marsden.

It was done once, but through terrain that was hardly built up at all. That’s no longer the case.

I’m pretty certain that if the formation had survived, it would be capable of higher speeds than the line that remains; curves were fewer and gentler. I doubt it would be significantly faster though.

 

[Nottingham59]

the answer is going to be tunnel nearly the whole way from Ardwick to Marsden.

That's 24km. This document says that a single bore tunnel costs £33m/km for the civil engineering: https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/434516/HS2_Guide_to_Tunnelling_Costs.pdf
So that's 2 x £33M x 24 = £1.6Bn for the tunnelling cost alone.

(From Guide Bridge to Marsden is 19km = £1.25Bn.)

These seem to be feasible costs, in the great scheme of things, and they would avoid a lot of local resistance. Maybe they will choose that. Tunnelling from Ardwick also means that you can have right-hand line running from the Piccadilly HS2 junction to the tunnel portal, so avoiding the "double height viaduct" cutting through East Manchester that Andy Burnham so objects to.

But 24km is a long tunnel. It would be beneficial to "come up for air" into a cutting once or twice in that distance for access and evacuation purposes. Looking at a topographic map, it looks to me that the best places for that would be on undeveloped land around Ashton Golf club, which lies below the 200m contour, and wherever the line of the new route crosses the Tame Valley and the canal. Or the valley between Uppermill and Delph.