Rail strikes discussion

[theageofthetra]

Colchester & Clacton guards still have around 31 daily diagrams between them. Ipswich guards also cover some workings to/from Colchester Town.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2022 ==


Drivers pay for their own training Cant see that happening on the railway.

With one centralised rules training school at multiple regional sites? I reckon it with happen.

Then to TOCs for traction and routes, driving, that's when they'll get paid.

 

[yorksrob]

Also anyone who thinks the strikes have damaged the leisure market significantly should see some of the London terminals today; Paddington was heaving and Euston very busy. Some of this might be transplanted demand from Saturday, but I don’t think it’s the doom and gloom some think - yes commuter travel is a bigger concern but frankly that will be, strikes or not. LU has had strikes most years and demand bounces back.

Furthermore I personally have been surprised how good a hearing the RMT have had in the media and amongst the public - I think it’s helped that Mick Lynch has struck a message with resonates with much of society and hasn’t resorted to the usual “overthrow the capitalist establishment” which was a traditional element of the union’s comms.



Some routes are introducing this for signallers I believe - they were burnt by having ex-aviation staff who then promptly returned to aviation roles in 2021/2022…

I think even with leisure, it depends how long it drags on for.

 

[dk1]

With one centralised rules training school at multiple regional sites? I reckon it with happen.

Then to TOCs for traction and routes, driving, that's when they'll get paid.

Time will tell.

 

[Horizon22]

I think even with leisure, it depends how long it drags on for.

True - I imagine a 2nd week would be OK, but a 3rd (especially over the summer holidays) would start to wrangle. That being said, it still might be short-term depression of demand, not long-term. Especially if fuel prices continue to tip over £2/l, concern over the environmental cost of driving amongst younger generations and ‘solidarity’with the union.

 

[Carlisle]

Or maybe it's labour being unable to stand up to its pay masters (money to MPs) and will just roll over to whatever the unions demand whatever the cost to the local taxpayers?

Absolutely, the same scenario also appears to apply to Steve Rotherham with Merseyrail.

 

[Mag_seven]

Also anyone who thinks the strikes have damaged the leisure market significantly should see some of the London terminals today; Paddington was heaving and Euston very busy. Some of this might be transplanted demand from Saturday, but I don’t think it’s the doom and gloom some think - yes commuter travel is a bigger concern but frankly that will be, strikes or not. LU has had strikes most years and demand bounces back.

Most weekend travel involves out on Friday and back on Sunday so such travellers are in this round of strikes not affected. If there was say a strike on Friday and Sunday it would be interesting to see how busy the Thursday was?

 

[choochoochoo]

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

and in many other careers, many people pay for their training, at least in part, through student loans. Doctors, Teachers, engineers, opticians, etc.

whilst I have no idea if this is proposed or not, I can see similar arrangements for driver training; at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

Unlike pilots/HGV drivers, you can't go rent a train and go practice as easily as you can rent a plane/truck.

And train simulators are basic at the very best in comparison to flight simulators.

So where will these private sponsored trainees do their training ?

The way it might go is TOC/FOCs ask trainees to bear the burden of training costs somehow, but seeing the government incentivise the training in the form of apprenticeships etc, as it makes them look like their doing a great job on the employment market, I can't see that happening.

 

[Kite159]

Most weekend travel involves out on Friday and back on Sunday so such travellers are in this round of strikes not affected. If there was say a strike on Friday and Sunday it would be interesting to see how busy the Thursday was?

And how many people have changed plans for the future based on the uncertainty of future strikes. Even if it means paying extra for free cancellation on accommodation just in case

 

[KGX]

Furthermore I personally have been surprised how good a hearing the RMT have had in the media and amongst the public - I think it’s helped that Mick Lynch has struck a message with resonates with much of society and hasn’t resorted to the usual “overthrow the capitalist establishment” which was a traditional element of the union’s comms.

I agree that message resonates more than it usually would, which I think is down to current inflation situation. However, I personally think the main reason is the lack of inconvenience for large sections of society who will relish the chance to WFH on strike days. Leaving the trains that are running quite lightly loaded. Public will support as long as it’s not having a huge impact on them. Downside to that is less pressure on Gov to resolve it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unlike pilots/HGV drivers, you can't go rent a train and go practice as easily as you can rent a plane/truck.

not sure there’s many places that will rent you an A320 to fly yourself if you don’t have the type rating…

For what it’s worth, I suspect that if such proposal were to happen, drivers will do their training where they do now. They’ll just pay for it.

 

[Deepgreen]

not sure there’s many places that will rent you an A320 to fly yourself if you don’t have the type rating…

For what it’s worth, I suspect that if such proposal were to happen, drivers will do their training where they do now. They’ll just pay for it.

I asked Enterprise about hiring an A380, but they only had starships...

 

[matacaster]

What would be the consequences, intended or unintended of
a) an all-out strike?
b) a complete lockout?

 

[Wolfie]

The RMT have said (on the back of the agreement with Merseyrail) that "Wherever we're dealing with somebody who's not directly controlled by the DfT, we're making progress,"

Given that GWR's National Rail Contract commences on 26th June, might that allow GWR to negotiate separately from the national talks and the "cold dead hand of the Government".....

Re your second para do you really imagine that HMT will allow GWR to increase costs significantly immediately before the new contract takes effect. I would suspect that them doing so might void the contract award.

 

[alxndr]

Reading the shift pay enhancements being reduced from 1.25x to 1.1x for nights, and 1.5x to 1.1x , surely such these reductions would reduce the wage bill by a substantial margin.

There are a wealth of different contracts out there on NR and some are already on 1.1x enhancements for nights and weekends. Others have different unsociable hour rates, or receive a roster premium calculated on expected nights/weekends over the course of the year, rather than varying with what happened to be worked that month which makes it very hard to compare.

Having dipped into Question Time last night an issue was raised that the 'outdated practices' means engineers working at eg Kings Cross couldn't work at Euston

There was no time for this to be expanded upon much. There was a brief mention of the railway operating on a regional basis and the railway staff member in the audience did begin to explain that its like expecting an engineer employed by Asda being asked to do a job at Sainsburys, but that's as far as it got.

Provided people have the local knowledge to do so people will work off their patch if requested and needed to. I wouldn't just turn up at a random bit of railway that I didn't know because it would be unsafe (what line is what? what signals should I quote to set up a line blockage? what local hazards do I need to be aware of?), but I would if there was at least someone familiar with the area to set up the safe system.

It's working in Asda but being asked to go to Sainsbury's, except if you go to the wrong aisle by mistake you could get killed.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Unfortunately they still don’t seem to “get” how much of a liability their idiot of a leader is, until this happens it’s just going to be more of the same.

I get the feeling people simply want the government to get on and run things smoothly, and cut out the silly games. The latter simply doesn’t seem to be in Johnson’s nature. I just can’t see what the Conservatives are playing at - surely they *can’t* go in to the next election with this dangerous joker in charge?

Depends who he is up against.

If it's Starmer and the ginger fish wife they might fancy their chances.

If it was let's say David Miliband and / or Andy Burnham possibly not ?

 

[Wolfie]

And in Wales. Seems Labour are able to negotiate deals whereas the useless Tories only fund themselves.

Anyone can negotiate a 'deal' that involves handing over large sums of money for nothing....

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It will be interesting to see how the DfT would enforce a change to DOO given so much stock currently wouldn't support it.

That and I do wonder where we would stand with current agreements given WMT have an agreement that clearly states 172, 196 & 730 are to be worked to the current arrangements. No mention of date, so as long as member of RMT are employed could they really enforce such a change?

 

[Sorcerer]

Some routes are introducing this for signallers I believe - they were burnt by having ex-aviation staff who then promptly returned to aviation roles in 2021/2022…

That's quite interesting. I personally would've expected them to stay given the greater job security with working on the railway, but then I suppose that depends on which aviation staff you refer to. Seeing as you mentioned signallers I imagine a fair few were former air traffic controllers, right?

 

[michael74]

Re your second para do you really imagine that HMT will allow GWR to increase costs significantly immediately before the new contract takes effect. I would suspect that them doing so might void the contract award.

I was talking about negotiations post 26th June, but as @Clarence Yard has stated, the answer is no.

 

[choochoochoo]

not sure there’s many places that will rent you an A320 to fly yourself if you don’t have the type rating…

For what it’s worth, I suspect that if such proposal were to happen, drivers will do their training where they do now. They’ll just pay for it.

No you can't rent an a320 but the number of hours you need on an a320 is a fraction of the total hours of flying time. Think a A320 type rating has on 32 hours of flying time in an A320 simulator.

Not like the huge amount of driving hours needed on real railway. Hence my comment on the rubbish train simulators we have.

 

[LowLevel]

It will be interesting to see how the DfT would enforce a change to DOO given so much stock currently wouldn't support it.

That and I do wonder where we would stand with current agreements given WMT have an agreement that clearly states 172, 196 & 730 are to be worked to the current arrangements. No mention of date, so as long as member of RMT are employed could they really enforce such a change?

Local agreements have very little standing for this sort of thing.

I always thought at the time that the crews at WMR's "victory" over DOO was far from time to be resting on laurels - much of their routes appear to be prime pickings and the tech is there to match, like it or not - and I very much don't.

As for elsewhere, it does say specified routes and traction so I suppose individual TOCs will have to see what they have in mind. Hopefully it's not intended to be a divide and rule tactic.

 

[WiredUp]

Also anyone who thinks the strikes have damaged the leisure market significantly should see some of the London terminals today; Paddington was heaving and Euston very busy. Some of this might be transplanted demand from Saturday, but I don’t think it’s the doom and gloom some think - yes commuter travel is a bigger concern but frankly that will be, strikes or not. LU has had strikes most years and demand bounces back.

Furthermore I personally have been surprised how good a hearing the RMT have had in the media and amongst the public - I think it’s helped that Mick Lynch has struck a message with resonates with much of society and hasn’t resorted to the usual “overthrow the capitalist establishment” which was a traditional element of the union’s comms.



Some routes are introducing this for signallers I believe - they were burnt by having ex-aviation staff who then promptly returned to aviation roles in 2021/2022…

100% Agree. While I may not agree with his politics Mr Lynch is a much sharper operator than his predecessor and is schooling most of the interviewers and MPs he encounters.

 

[ComUtoR]

at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

Training costs are 'recouped' two ways at my TOC. Firstly there is a reduced wage throughout the process. The salary steps up as they progress and even after they pass, and to the same job as a Driver, they are still paid less to help recoup training costs. The second way is exactly what you have stated. If a Driver leaves within their first three years; they are liable for training costs. Its a fixed sum that reduces each year.

 

[ar10642]

Never read so much hearsay, maybe, how I would like it to be, and basically twaddle. Time this thread was locked.

How do we delete accounts on here anyway?

If you don't like it, don't read it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Local agreements have very little standing for this sort of thing.

I always thought at the time that the crews at WMR's "victory" over DOO was far from time to be resting on laurels - much of their routes appear to be prime pickings and the tech is there to match, like it or not - and I very much don't.

As for elsewhere, it does say specified routes and traction so I suppose individual TOCs will have to see what they have in mind. Hopefully it's not intended to be a divide and rule tactic.

This isn't to do with the 2019 fight. It's somewhat linked to the Siemens refresh of the 350s. This is a new TOC agreement from the start of this year though. Can it really be classed as a local agreement? This isn't a single depot, it affects all WMR/LNWR depots.

 

[WiredUp]

Training costs are 'recouped' two ways at my TOC. Firstly there is a reduced wage throughout the process. The salary steps up as they progress and even after they pass, and to the same job as a Driver, they are still paid less to help recoup training costs. The second way is exactly what you have stated. If a Driver leaves within their first three years; they are liable for training costs. Its a fixed sum that reduces each year.

It's not my part of the industry, so excuse the question, but how many hours does it usually take to 'pass out' a new driver? How much efficiency is gained from using simulators? I wondered how comparable it is to training a new civil aviation pilot.

 

[Sorcerer]

In regards to recouping costs, I have heard that if a company wants you badly enough they'll pay for you, but I'm not sure about how reliable that source was, and besides which what really are the chances of an operator actually doing this in practice rather than just opting for another candidate that has already passed the probationary period? CrossCountry certainly won't be short on candidates, and despite not having the brand recognition and prestige as Virgin did, Avanti could probably get still get a good enough talent pool to not have to worry about it either. I'm sure someone will confirm though whether or not my previous statement is true though.

 

[yorksrob]

True - I imagine a 2nd week would be OK, but a 3rd (especially over the summer holidays) would start to wrangle. That being said, it still might be short-term depression of demand, not long-term. Especially if fuel prices continue to tip over £2/l, concern over the environmental cost of driving amongst younger generations and ‘solidarity’with the union.

Indeed. I'm conscious that a dispute entailing the weeks in total would be childsplay compared to some of the pre 2020 disputes.

 

[Dieseldriver]

It's not my part of the industry, so excuse the question, but how many hours does it usually take to 'pass out' a new driver? How much efficiency is gained from using simulators? I wondered how comparable it is to training a new civil aviation pilot.

I think the minimum driving hours with an instructor is 225 (with X amount to be undertaken in the hours of darkness). Some companies may require more but I think 225 is the minimum standard.
Simulators are really only used to go through out of course scenarios rather than actually learning to physically drive a train.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not my part of the industry, so excuse the question, but how many hours does it usually take to 'pass out' a new driver? How much efficiency is gained from using simulators? I wondered how comparable it is to training a new civil aviation pilot.

PTS - 2 day course
Rules - Approx 12 weeks
Traction - 4 weeks for a full course. about a week for an individual traction
225 hrs minimum recommended for practical train handling. (time depends on daily driving etc) (40hrs dark req)
Then route learning and various times for assessments.
The new Apprenticeships have added more time (about a week or two)

Most people say its around a year to go from Trainee to Driver. It can be quicker and it can take a lot longer. There is a 'school' who can take people from scratch and I'd agree that the industry is changing with more external learning but its still more than a few years away to be very honest.

Simulators don't really save time or add to efficiency. They are complimentary to your skill-set and often used to help reinforce degraded or out of course working. Simulators vary considerably. Sadly they are insanely cost prohibitive. Maintenance, hardware, and crippling software costs means they are nowhere are useful as they could be and certainly nothing like an aeroplane, fully gimbled, flight sim.