Rail strikes discussion

[Watershed]

How much notice do the unions have to give before future strike dates? Is it still 2 weeks?

Yes, and the RMT will likely make the most of the notice period to pile on further pressure.

 

[Moonshot]

I think there are wider social benefits and I am happy with the railways being there, but those arguments start to fade away if the railway chooses to make itself useless for extended periods of time.



I mean yes, that's exactly what the government might be thinking at this point.

Worth pointing out that despite the huge numbers of staff making themselves unavailable to work, 1 in 5 trains still ran. In addition to that , the key flow of biomass freight from Liverpool to Drax also ran.....there would have been significant implications had the Drax plant found itself short of fuel to run a power station which is a big supplier to the National Grid. Staff have every right to strike, but if it does carry on for a long time, the novelty will start wearing off for some

 

[306024]

In my head I seem to remember there was a conductor depot at Colchester that went over to DOO a while ago? I may be wrong.

I think I can guess what‘s causing that. The routes between Wickford and Southminster, Witham and Braintree, Colchester and Colchester Town. and Colchester and Ipswich are all cleared for DOO. But in the days of 321s and 360s conductors were required for various reasons for 12 cars on all routes, and also 8 cars for Colchester Town.

Unless something has changed more recently (I observe from afar now!) the use of 720s (once there is enough of them - another story) with their on board cameras means 5 and 10 car 720s can be DOO on all these routes, so that’s where conductors are no longer required for operational duties.

But in a move in the opposite direction, as @dk1 says, conductors now work 755s between Cambridge and Stansted Airport on a route where 317s and 379s were previously DOO.

 

[ar10642]

Worth pointing out that despite the huge numbers of staff making themselves unavailable to work, 1 in 5 trains still ran. In addition to that , the key flow of biomass freight from Liverpool to Drax also ran.....there would have been significant implications had the Drax plant found itself short of fuel to run a power station which is a big supplier to the National Grid. Staff have every right to strike, but if it does carry on for a long time, the novelty will start wearing off for some

In Sussex the only line running is the Brighton mainline, so the railway is pretty useless here on strike days. Having said that most people only use it for London, so most people needing to get there could have driven to one of the BML stations and got one of the four trains an hour to London. So really you have the railway making itself unavailable for lower paid Sussex workers needing to get around the county (up the workers! Oh not *those* workers...) but still available for higher paid London commuters who still need to go to the office. Doesn't feel very persuasive to me.

 

[CFRAIL]

I think that DOO was always going to return on suitable lines and will be progressed further in the future. I do wonder though whether some guards could be offered the chance of driving jobs as part of the increase in requirement for drivers when Sunday inevitably becomes part of the working week which requires more staff.

I think there are many conductors that would make the switch given preferential recruitment processes which ultimately leads to a freeze on external recruitment. I think we'll end up with new drivers being paid considerably less (circa 40-45k), that'll reset the salary scales and bring the overall cost down over time.

 

[Exscrew]

I think there are wider social benefits and I am happy with the railways being there, but those arguments start to fade away if the railway chooses to make itself useless for extended periods of time.



I mean yes, that's exactly what the government might be thinking at this point.

Oh give it a rest, if anything they want to further invest in the railway.
Just a few months ago they were discussing reopening lines that were closed during the beeching era.

 

[CFRAIL]

How much notice do the unions have to give before future strike dates? Is it still 2 weeks?

Yes

 

[Exscrew]

Maybe the next strikes will be around the commonwealth games. Thats at the end of July

 

[Bald Rick]

I think I can guess what‘s causing that. The routes between Wickford and Southminster, Witham and Braintree, Colchester and Colchester Town. and Colchester and Ipswich are all cleared for DOO. But in the days of 321s and 360s conductors were required for various reasons for 12 cars on all routes, and also 8 cars for Colchester Town.

Unless something has changed more recently (I observe from afar now!) the use of 720s (once there is enough of them - another story) with their on board cameras means 5 and 10 car 720s can be DOO on all these routes, so that’s where conductors are no longer required for operational duties.

But in a move in the opposite direction, as @dk1 says, conductors now work 755s between Cambridge and Stansted Airport on a route where 317s and 379s were previously DOO.

thank you.

 

[ar10642]

Oh give it a rest, if anything they want to further invest in the railway.
Just a few months ago they were discussing reopening lines that were closed during the beeching era.

That was before the RMT wanted to shut it down for months. I doubt we'll see any lines reopened now for a long time.

 

[nanstallon]

I think there are wider social benefits and I am happy with the railways being there, but those arguments start to fade away if the railway chooses to make itself useless for extended periods of time.



I mean yes, that's exactly what the government might be thinking at this point.

Yes, with more WFH, the railway is going to steadily lose its captive commuter traffic, and when travel is optional there is plenty of competition. Already, the fares system (if it is a system) is so complicated that it puts people off, especially with horror stories of how it can cost £200 to go from London to Manchester, etc. When you add unreliability because of strikes, there is the 'sod it, let's just jump in the car' factor.

The RMT may be about to learn that railways are not all that essential, after all. Certainly it is better that they are around, but a government in deep trouble may find a bit of union bashing to be a handy distraction from it all.

 

[Robertj21a]

My pleasure. It makes me quite cross when I see things posted that are patently untrue, as many people reading this will, understandably, not be able to tell what the reality is. There is clearly a lot of misinformation being put on this thread, some of it unknowingly, but it’s probable that some of it is intentional. I think those in the industry would be wise to read up about what the proposals are; if you don’t know where to find it then ask your supervisor / manager.

Can I be another to thank you for your clarification. A number of the points that had been made by others previously seem to have been accepted without question by some people. It's good to have much clearer understanding.

 

[theageofthetra]

thank you.

I think there are many conductors that would make the switch given preferential recruitment processes which ultimately leads to a freeze on external recruitment. I think we'll end up with new drivers being paid considerably less (circa 40-45k), that'll reset the salary scales and bring the overall cost down over time.

I can see drivers having to pay more for their training too.

 

[dk1]

I think I can guess what‘s causing that. The routes between Wickford and Southminster, Witham and Braintree, Colchester and Colchester Town. and Colchester and Ipswich are all cleared for DOO. But in the days of 321s and 360s conductors were required for various reasons for 12 cars on all routes, and also 8 cars for Colchester Town.

Unless something has changed more recently (I observe from afar now!) the use of 720s (once there is enough of them - another story) with their on board cameras means 5 and 10 car 720s can be DOO on all these routes, so that’s where conductors are no longer required for operational duties.

But in a move in the opposite direction, as @dk1 says, conductors now work 755s between Cambridge and Stansted Airport on a route where 317s and 379s were previously DOO.

Colchester & Clacton guards still have around 31 daily diagrams between them. Ipswich guards also cover some workings to/from Colchester Town.

I can see drivers having to pay more for their training too.

Drivers pay for their own training Cant see that happening on the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Merseyrail staff given 7.1% pay rise on eve of rail strikes | The Independent

I wander if this wlll apply any weight to the RMT dispute?

Look who funds Merseyrail and where the money is coming from to fund that increase.

 

[ar10642]

Yes, with more WFH, the railway is going to steadily lose its captive commuter traffic, and when travel is optional there is plenty of competition. Already, the fares system (if it is a system) is so complicated that it puts people off, especially with horror stories of how it can cost £200 to go from London to Manchester, etc. When you add unreliability because of strikes, there is the 'sod it, let's just jump in the car' factor.

The RMT may be about to learn that railways are not all that essential, after all. Certainly it is better that they are around, but a government in deep trouble may find a bit of union bashing to be a handy distraction from it all.

Well that's what I'm thinking. Clearly there are some lines we can't do without, but there are loads more where I'm not sure we can really say that. I'd prefer they *all* stay open so we can continue to have a proper rail system here, but in a world where the government are looking to claw back a lot of money, how long will they tolerate extended strikes and losing even more revenue on top of the 20% down it already is?

I'd say anything on this map with a lot of small dots on it could be a target for service cuts or worse

British Railways - An interactive map of Great Britain's rail network | Merritt Cartographic

An interactive map of the rail network of Great Britain. This map highlights the routes operated by each train operating company, the estimated use of each station in Great Britain (from data published by the Office of Rail and Road), as well as providing a range of other statistics about the...

www.merrittcartographic.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

Oh give it a rest, if anything they want to further invest in the railway.
Just a few months ago they were discussing reopening lines that were closed during the beeching era.

I hope the two lines are re-opened, but I would class this as the most anti-rail passenger government I've known in a long time.

 

[nedchester]

Look who funds Merseyrail and where the money is coming from to fund that increase.

And in Wales. Seems Labour are able to negotiate deals whereas the useless Tories only fund themselves.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Worth pointing out that despite the huge numbers of staff making themselves unavailable to work, 1 in 5 trains still ran. In addition to that , the key flow of biomass freight from Liverpool to Drax also ran.....there would have been significant implications had the Drax plant found itself short of fuel to run a power station which is a big supplier to the National Grid. Staff have every right to strike, but if it does carry on for a long time, the novelty will start wearing off for some

Biomass provides about 4% of UK power output, which is rather insignificant.
We get about the same amount of power from the new undersea Norway link.
I'm not sure Drax has finished the conversion of coal plant to biomass, last I read it was delaying the end of coal burn.

GB Fuel type power generation production

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output

gridwatch.co.uk

 

[niggill617@gma]

Exactly. Companies don’t want people having all competencies and such which they rarely use, as it costs time and money to maintain them. There’s enough issues maintaining the basics at times (which leads to problems when they cut knowledge, but then when an incident occurs we all wonder why the response isn’t great).

Is general professional knowledge regarded as a competence, that requires currency; or just a criterion which is taken as always understood, given good health?

 

[bramling]

I meant to say “wouldn’t be unheard of” - I agree 6-7 is not anything to write home about.

As an aside, the Tories getting a right kicking in their two by-elections might cause them to take stock and realise they could be in for a very uncomfortable summer if they don’t deal with this - and other - industrial disputes as it’s clear the mood of the country is rather sour.

Unfortunately they still don’t seem to “get” how much of a liability their idiot of a leader is, until this happens it’s just going to be more of the same.

I get the feeling people simply want the government to get on and run things smoothly, and cut out the silly games. The latter simply doesn’t seem to be in Johnson’s nature. I just can’t see what the Conservatives are playing at - surely they *can’t* go in to the next election with this dangerous joker in charge?

 

[Bald Rick]

Drivers pay for their own training Cant see that happening on the railway.

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

and in many other careers, many people pay for their training, at least in part, through student loans. Doctors, Teachers, engineers, opticians, etc.

whilst I have no idea if this is proposed or not, I can see similar arrangements for driver training; at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

 

[dk1]

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

and in many other careers, many people pay for their training, at least in part, through student loans. Doctors, Teachers, engineers, opticians, etc.

whilst I have no idea if this is proposed or not, I can see similar arrangements for driver training; at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

Just can’t see it happening anytime soon. There have been clauses over the years including when I trained in 1998 about not leaving for at least two years. That was however overturned by ASLEF at the time in my case as I was ex-BR.

 

[TheEdge]

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

and in many other careers, many people pay for their training, at least in part, through student loans. Doctors, Teachers, engineers, opticians, etc.

Ah yes, because making sure another well paid job is locked behind either mummy and daddy paying, more crippling loans or some other form of gatekeeping is an excellent idea for stimulating the economy.

 

[Kite159]

And in Wales. Seems Labour are able to negotiate deals whereas the useless Tories only fund themselves.

Or maybe it's labour being unable to stand up to its pay masters (money to MPs) and will just roll over to whatever the unions demand whatever the cost to the local taxpayers?

 

[niggill617@gma]

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

and in many other careers, many people pay for their training, at least in part, through student loans. Doctors, Teachers, engineers, opticians, etc.

whilst I have no idea if this is proposed or not, I can see similar arrangements for driver training; at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

Also they usually pay for their medical.

 

[Sorcerer]

why not? most airline pilots pay for their training (well north of £100k) as do many lorry drivers (much less, obviously).

In all fairness though, the situation with airline pilots could very well change because of pilot shortages. Airlines such as Emirates and Lufthansa have their own cadet pilot programmes that train new recruits at a reduced rate or for free as long as they end up working for the respective airline, so I very much doubt the railways are going to start making people pay for driver training when possible staff shortages and resultant cancellation could potentially cause a much greater level of disruption. Besides which it would be a huge step backwards for career opportunities of the lower classes unless it was covered by some sort of student loans.

whilst I have no idea if this is proposed or not, I can see similar arrangements for driver training; at the very least a ‘recoup’ option for training costs in the event that the driver leaves before a certain length of service.

Is this not already how it works? I was under the impression that drivers who want to change companies before a minimum two years probationary period is up would have to repay some of the training costs.

 

[Philip]

Station and retail grade staff do seem to be caught in the middle of this dispute - I doubt even months of industrial action is likely to alter any of the plans that the DfT have in place for stations.

 

[Horizon22]

Also anyone who thinks the strikes have damaged the leisure market significantly should see some of the London terminals today; Paddington was heaving and Euston very busy. Some of this might be transplanted demand from Saturday, but I don’t think it’s the doom and gloom some think - yes commuter travel is a bigger concern but frankly that will be, strikes or not. LU has had strikes most years and demand bounces back.

Furthermore I personally have been surprised how good a hearing the RMT have had in the media and amongst the public - I think it’s helped that Mick Lynch has struck a message with resonates with much of society and hasn’t resorted to the usual “overthrow the capitalist establishment” which was a traditional element of the union’s comms.

Is this not already how it works? I was under the impression that drivers who want to change companies before a minimum two years probationary period is up would have to repay some of the training costs.

Some routes are introducing this for signallers I believe - they were burnt by having ex-aviation staff who then promptly returned to aviation roles in 2021/2022…

 

[niggill617@gma]

Ah yes, because making sure another well paid job is locked behind either mummy and daddy paying, more crippling loans or some other form of gatekeeping is an excellent idea for stimulating the economy.

Don't forget professional flying is a different order of magnitude to train driving.

I started studying for my maintenance licences several years ago, mum or dad didn't pay, nor was a crippling loan required. The only gate keeper was some hard private study.