Rail strikes discussion

[HuggyB87]

If the pay is £Z made up of £X plus £Y London weighting, then the 7.1% would presumably be applied to the total figure, so it would be £Z * 1.071.

Which is still the figure of Y

Bit like fuel duty and VAT - the figurative percentage hasn't changed in the last however many years, but because other costs have gone up such as wholesale, distribution costs etc, pushing the price up, consequently, so does the amount of duty and VAT - and then you have people complaining that fuel is so high because of duty and VAT, when in fact, that hasn't budged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is still the figure of Y

Bit like fuel duty and VAT - the figurative percentage hasn't changed in the last however many years, but because other costs have gone up such as wholesale, distribution costs etc, pushing the price up, consequently, so does the amount of duty and VAT - and then you have people complaining that fuel is so high because of duty and VAT, when in fact, that hasn't budged.

VAT is a percentage so it has budged - the higher the price, the higher the tax.

Same with a percentage increase.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hello again! Just finished another very long day, and it’s time for corrections and clarifications.

Can you tell me what failures aren't critical please? I'd like to know.

let’s start with three:

first filament failure
points failed no reverse (that aren’t needed reverse and are locked normal)
Signalling power main supply failed, switched to standby supply

none of those are critical to the operation of the railway, and none affect signaller workload

All failures are critical and require additional concentration for my work.

clearly, that is not true.

Any idea that people will just be on hand magically, in an emergency, as you seem to think they will be is daft because they're actually on hand now, but NR wants to sack them all or make them night time only.

NR does NOT want to “sack them all” or “make them night time only”

fault team coverage will largely be the same as now. I’ve asked you before, and you haven’t answered - why would NR want to extend the time it takes to repair faults, and cause more delays, when it has targets set by DFT and the ORR to do exactly the opposite?

please read the information available to you about what the proposals actually are.

This is the hill we die on.

please don’t.

These plans for modernisation will make the railway less safe, increase delays and not reduce costs at all.

they will not make the railway less safe (the ORR will judge that, and in any event would not permit it), will not increase delays (see above) and will reduce costs.

One of the sticking points appears to be " no compulsory redundancy". I must admit the amount of employees in the queue for a VS package would mean that there would be no need for compulsory redundancy anyway.

including some of the RMT negotiating team, no doubt…

The screenshot had 6-7 incidents across the whole railway network. Two at one panel isn’t great obviously, but I wouldn’t say 6-7 would be unheard for a whole day in normal service, although obviously on the higher side (especially with reduced service).

there are usually many more than 6-7 wrong routings on any given day.

The only universal law is to not scab.

Physics says “hello”

So this lower wage bill, do you not think this will compromise safety?

as above, it will not. The level of safety is not a function of the wage bill, but a function of the quality and appropriateness of maintenance undertaken.

NR - offer is 2% plus 2 payments of 0.5% of salary this year, changes to T&Cs
- ~2500 compulsory redundancies
- increase weeks on nights (28-39)
- reduce night shift pay from 1.25x to 1.10x rate
- reduce weekend shift pay from 1.50x to 1.10x rate
- no mention of new tech in moderation so far
Also talk of fire and rehire for mobile operatives, onto self employed contracts requiring own vans, no guarantee on fuel allowance.

This information has been shared by RMT Secretary via Regional reps….

…who are telling you fibs, I’m afraid. For example, 2,500 compulsory redundancies is not part of the ‘offer’. The level of jobs being removed is rather less than that (1700 is the number I have heard quoted), and it is jobs not the people in them. And it has been made clear that if the proposals are adopted, almost all of the reductions will be through not filling vacancies, voluntary redundancy and ‘natural wastage’. There have been repeated statements along the lines of “everyone who wants a job will have one”.

You can't do it another way! If you agree with this fairytale plan to sack maintenance and think half that number of maintenance can then do all the work needed during the end of service then I have some old rope to sell you.

There is no proposal to ‘sack’ half of maintenance. Stop telling lies, you are making yourself look silly. Read up on what the proposals are (Again). Or perhaps get yourself a job in maintenance so that you understand what the job is about. Like I did.

How are different groups balloted by the rmt? Is it by depot, grade, station or a wider region? I only ask as I saw on Tuesday that one depot was still open, albeit with no work...

By company. Network Rail and all the TOCs funded by DfT are subject to RMT strike action. But depots (TOC and NR) will still be open. Indeed a not insignificant number of people are turning up for work.

I think that might be the reason why. I was surprised we went straight to striking if I’m honest. That’s quite unusual for us.

I’m afraid it looks like ASLEF are using you as Guinea Pigs to gauge sentiment across the driving grades. And have gone “all in” right at the flop.

 

[HuggyB87]

VAT is a percentage so it has budged - the higher the price, the higher the tax.

Same with a percentage increase.

The amount of the VAT that you pay has changed, but the rate has always remained at 20%

 

[dk1]

I’m afraid it looks like ASLEF are using you as Guinea Pigs to gauge sentiment across the industry.

If that is the case, & it’s a big if, somebody had to do it

 

[eldomtom2]

It didn't get the miners anywhere because they failed to recognise that for the previous 12mths they had been getting oodles of overtime to get as much coal out the ground as they could to ensure power stations were overflowing with coal. I doubt NR staff can sustain even a 12hr service day after day.

I don't see the connection between those two statements. You can't stockpile train services.

 

[Watershed]

Unlikely, partly because it ceases to be legally protected after 12 weeks, and partly because the staff won't be able to afford it in the context of the economic crunch.

There have been plenty of other disputes that have rumbled on for far in excess of 12 weeks without dismissals being on the table, for example the Northern DOO dispute. Given that dismissals would, in a substantial proportion of roles,have a deleterious impact on the ability to run the service, I think they are rather unlikely. Although they cannot never be ruled out entirely.

Why is that a factor? All of our 15x have quietly been upgraded to be ready for door camera fitment over the past couple of years...

Being ready for fitment is quite different to actually having the equipment ready for use, as is the case on most stock ordered in the last 5-10 years, even where it's not currently operated as DOO.

 

[fgwrich]

Hello again! Just finished another very long day, and it’s time for corrections and clarifications.


let’s start with three:

first filament failure
points failed no reverse (that aren’t needed reverse and are locked normal)
Signalling power main supply failed, switched to standby supply

none of those are critical to the operation of the railway, and none affect signaller workload




clearly, that is not true.



NR does NOT want to “sack them all” or “make them night time only”

fault team coverage will largely be the same as now. I’ve asked you before, and you haven’t answered - why would NR want to extend the time it takes to repair faults, and cause more delays, when it has targets set by DFT and the ORR to do exactly the opposite?

please read the information available to you about what the proposals actually are.



please don’t.




they will not make the railway less safe (the ORR will judge that, and in any event would not permit it), will not increase delays (see above) and will reduce costs.



including some of the RMT negotiating team, no doubt…



there are usually many more than 6-7 wrong routings on any given day.




Physics says “hello”



as above, it will not. The level of safety is not a function of the wage bill, but a function of the quality and appropriateness of maintenance undertaken.





…who are telling you fibs, I’m afraid. For example, 2,500 compulsory redundancies is not part of the ‘offer’. The level of jobs being removed is rather less than that (1700 is the number I have heard quoted), and it is jobs not the people in them. And it has been made clear that if the proposals are adopted, almost all of the reductions will be through not filling vacancies, voluntary redundancy and ‘natural wastage’.




There is no proposal to ‘sack’ half of maintenance. Stop telling lies, you are making yourself look silly. Read up on what the proposals are (Again). Or perhaps get yourself a job in maintenance so that you understand what the job is about. Like I did.




By company. Network Rail and all the TOCs funded by DfT are subject to RMT strike action. But depots (TOC and NR) will still be open. Indeed a not insignificant number of people are turning up for work.




I’m afraid it looks like ASLEF are using you as Guinea Pigs to gauge sentiment across the driving grades. And have gone “all in” right at the flop.

Thank you for your clarifications and corrections @Bald Rick - I'm probably not the only one but one of a few appreciative people of your input (before this thread runs away with itself again!).

 

[quantinghome]

Two Paris Edwardian metro lines have been converted & are entirely staff free & there is a 1970’s metro line in Nuremberg that is now unattended.
In the UK the new stock on the Glasgow subway is to go unattended. So it not right to say unattended are all new build.

Fair enough. It would be interesting to know what proportion of existing metro lines could be converted, and at what cost.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very true. They are still guards at GA & no route that had them previously runs without them now.

In my head I seem to remember there was a conductor depot at Colchester that went over to DOO a while ago? I may be wrong.

certianly Southeastern have extended DOO operation in recent times, as have London Overground, of course.

 

[Cdd89]

I'd rather the whole network burns before accepting such an insulting offer.

I found this a little disappointing to read. Hopefully this is just emotions running high (I agree the offer should be improved) rather than a genuine position.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you for your clarifications and corrections @Bald Rick - I'm probably not the only one but one of a few appreciative people of your input (before this thread runs away with itself again!).

My pleasure. It makes me quite cross when I see things posted that are patently untrue, as many people reading this will, understandably, not be able to tell what the reality is. There is clearly a lot of misinformation being put on this thread, some of it unknowingly, but it’s probable that some of it is intentional. I think those in the industry would be wise to read up about what the proposals are; if you don’t know where to find it then ask your supervisor / manager.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

…who are telling you fibs, I’m afraid. For example, 2,500 compulsory redundancies is not part of the ‘offer’. The level of jobs being removed is rather less than that (1700 is the number I have heard quoted), and it is jobs not the people in them. And it has been made clear that if the proposals are adopted, almost all of the reductions will be through not filling vacancies, voluntary redundancy and ‘natural wastage’.

Reality is as you say that the need for compulsory redundancies if a voluntary severance scheme is offered is highly unlikely yet NR haven't included a provision for no compulsory redundancies in the letter to the unions. This is the first time in nigh on 20 years since NR was created when Coucher instigated an across the board headcount reduction that compulsory redundancies have been threatened. The unions are being antagonised over the lack of this provision, which as we know is relatively low risk, which must be a DfT directive.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is the first time in nigh on 20 years since NR was created when Coucher instigated an across the board headcount reduction that compulsory redundancies have been threatened.

Not so, there are plenty of people who have left on compulsory redundancy in the last 20 (actually 19) years since violet. Mostly in management grades, but also in operational and clerical grades. One of my very good friends left in that way a few weeks ago. It is always on the table, as it is with almost every company.

The unions are being antagonised over the lack of this provision, which as we know is relatively low risk, which must be a DfT directive.

it isn’t, as above.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not so, there are plenty of people who have left on compulsory redundancy in the last 20 (actually 19) years since violet. Mostly in management grades, but also in operational and clerical grades. One of my very good friends left in that way a few weeks ago. It is always on the table, as it is with almost every company.

If your displaced and you don't get a job you have a period of time before redundancy proceedings are instigated but violet style compulsory redundancies never gave employees that option. Negotiations need give and take to make progress and we both know the need to resort to compulsory redundancies is low risk for NR to not be able to assuage the unions over it in attempt to move things forward but I guess given the scale of changes being proposed they know they need to force them through.

 

[the sniper]

I’m afraid it looks like ASLEF are using you as Guinea Pigs to gauge sentiment across the driving grades. And have gone “all in” right at the flop.

You should stick to what you know.

 

[E27007]

So it seems we're stuck in an endless argument on here now, yet nobody seems to be posting what has been offered and what that equates to.

Hopefully this allows people to understand why it's so divisive;

NR - offer is 2% plus 2 payments of 0.5% of salary this year, changes to T&Cs
- ~2500 compulsory redundancies
- increase weeks on nights (28-39)
- reduce night shift pay from 1.25x to 1.10x rate
- reduce weekend shift pay from 1.50x to 1.10x rate
- no mention of new tech in moderation so far
Also talk of fire and rehire for mobile operatives, onto self employed contracts requiring own vans, no guarantee on fuel allowance.

As you can see that it quite a hit to someone's earnings in the name of modernisation.

TOC - off is 2% plus extra 1% in exchange for T&C's
Not a lot of detail discussed yet, but in today's meeting TOCs have explicitly stated their desire to change to DOO on 'all applicable routes and traction on a date to be specified'.
Also mention of the 'creation of a customer service grade' which I believe was in GBR documents earlier this year.
Pensionable age to be raised 62-65

This information has been shared by RMT Secretary via Regional reps.

Reading the shift pay enhancements being reduced from 1.25x to 1.1x for nights, and 1.5x to 1.1x , surely such these reductions would reduce the wage bill by a substantial margin. From that substantial margin, NR could self-fund the pay raise RMT are requesting (and NR still have more work for less pay). Does anyone have any figures for the effects of the changes tabled by NR and RMT?

 

[yorksrob]

Mildly interesting article on the BEEB regarding how people and the wider economy has coped with the strikes:

Train strikes: Why haven't they caused more disruption?

The post-pandemic shift to working from home means disruption caused by the strikes has been more limited.

www.bbc.co.uk

The rail strikes this week had threatened to bring the country to a halt.

But after two days of industrial action - as well as the knock-on impact on services for the rest of the week - there is little evidence this has happened.

Empty stations, half-full trains to Glastonbury Festival, and broadly similar traffic levels mean that for the most part, it appears to have been business as usual for many people across the country.

However, for those who can't work remotely and city centre businesses which rely on footfall from office workers and commuters, the impact has still been substantial.
Shift to working from home

The pandemic has meant many firms are now geared up to switch to remote working.

According to official figures, 38% of workers now spend some of the week working from home.

One office workspace firm in Cheltenham has seen a 30% upturn in business this week from people booking individual day passes.
Claire Storey
Image caption,
Claire Storey said the rail strikes have been good for her business

Claire Storey, founder of the Workplace Network in Cheltenham, says she has a lot of clients who normally commute once or twice a week but during the strikes were unable to do so, meaning they booked more days at her co-working space.

Office occupancy data across the UK on Tuesday was just 22%, compared to 40% the same day last week, according to workplace technology firm Freespace.

What days are the strikes and which trains are running?
'Strikes have left my stag do plans in ruins'

Ben Willmott, head of public policy for HR trade body the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, says more flexible ways of working have helped employees work from home with short notice.

"This takes pressure off the public transport system and reduced services for those who do have to travel to work," he adds.

Pre-pandemic, the rail strikes would have taken more of a toll on Leeds Building Society, but boss Richard Fearon says a 30% reduction in the number of people in the office went "seamlessly".

"In 2019, we only could accommodate about 120 people working from home but now we can accommodate 1,000 wfh and can take these things in our stride," he adds.
No huge spike in traffic

Working from home and the high cost of fuel also seem to have mitigated the impacts on the roads.

The AA says it appears most drivers have been able to go about their journeys "without too much disruption". AA breakdown rates are also slightly lower than usual.

"It looks like the early strike notice has given those who can work from home the chance to continue to do so while those who have to travel to work appear to have planned ahead by setting off early and car-sharing," a spokesperson says.

The AA's data showed some localised congestion close to major events like Glastonbury and Goodwood festivals, but it expected this to ease once festival-goers are on-site.

More drivers are also choosing to car-share, according to Liftshare.com, who are seeing a new member added to their network every minute.

National Highways also said there hadn't been a spike in traffic, with levels down 1% on Tuesday compared to 2019.

Location technology firm TomTom found congestion had increased "only slightly" on Thursday morning across most UK cities compared to the same time a week ago.
Uptick in alternative transport

When people did need to travel, many appear to have turned to other modes of transport.

On the first day of the strike there was a big jump in the number of people using cycle and e-scooter hire in London.

Santander Cycle hires, which typically number about 30,000 per day, jumped to 67,000 hires on Tuesday, Transport for London said. This is the second biggest day for the scheme since it began.

E-scooters in London have had around 6,500 hires per day in June but this jumped to more than 10,000 hires on Tuesday.

A rise in bus use was recorded by National Express, which saw a "significant increase" in enquiries and bookings for strike dates. The firm said all of its services are "very busy" this week, with 70% of seats sold out across its UK-wide network. It anticipates this to hit close to 90% by the week's end.

Meanwhile, Uber said demand in London was up by around 50% on Tuesday. However this reduced significantly on Thursday, which the company said could be an indication of more people working from home.
Media caption,
Watch BBC reporter's journey to Glastonbury Festival

Many music fans heading to Glastonbury also appear to have heeded advice to travel on other days or find other ways of getting to the festival.

Those travelling from London Paddington on Thursday morning were relieved to find the station was quiet, with plenty of space on trains.
Emptier city centres

With less people commuting, businesses based in city centres have been hit by reduced footfall.

High Street footfall was 16.1% lower to 13:00 BSTon Thursday compared with the same day last week, according to retail analysts Springboard.

In central London, the drop from last week was more than double the national average.

Ashley Davis, who runs Morning Sunshine coffee shop at Warwick Parkway station, says the lack of footfall is "really disheartening".

"If this strike action does not get sorted, if the government do not get involved, we are left as collateral damage. Our bills still have to be paid every month," he adds.
Ashley Davis
Image caption,
Ashley Davis says businesses like his need support

So does the lack of impact on many workers mean rail unions have less power to negotiate?

Gemma Dale, a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University's business school, says with more office workers now able to do their job from home there is less pressure on the government to resolve the dispute than pre-pandemic.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has suggested he's willing to wait it out - and has asked people to "stay the course".

But the RMT union at the centre of the dispute has said more rail strikes are "extremely likely" if talks between rail bosses and unions continue to fail.

Ms Dale points out the strike is still causing disruption for those who can't work remotely.

"It is still of course a huge issue to not have an effective rail service running across most of the country."

My take on it is that people are resilient and are good at making alternatives, however as someone affected by the year long Northern strike, this is all fine as a one-off, but becomes less tenable as things drag on.

Lessons are for all sides:

Railway employees and industry - don't take your customer base for granted.
Government - don't allow it to become a running sore amongst your voters (particularly when you're losing by-elections like loose change)

 

[nanstallon]

The battle has now become a war, at the expense of the passengers and freight customers. Great...

Quite. A plague on both their houses. Perhaps the hammering that the Tories got last night will make them think twice about waging an unnecessary war. I have no time for RMT either, and feel a bit sorry for the taxpayer who has to fund yet more subsidy for the railways, but there has to be a sensible compromise - they managed it with ASLEF in Scotland.

 

[Ivor]

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S, McDonalds, WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

 

[yorksrob]

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S,
WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

If not, NR would be wise to give them a discount.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S,
WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

Since the pandemic NR has increasingly moved to turnover based rent rather than a fixed rental payment each month. Most businesses now pay a small monthly fixed rent plus a variable element based on, say, 10% of turnover at the location.

 

[Ivor]

Since the pandemic NR has increasingly moved to turnover based rent rather than a fixed rental payment each month. Most businesses now pay a small monthly fixed rent plus a variable element based on, say, 10% of turnover at the location.

That’s interesting, thanks for the info.

 

[nanstallon]

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S, McDonalds, WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

It depends on how good NR's lawyers were, when they drew up the lease. Otherwise they could be in the frame, too!

 

[RPI]

Aslef members don't want DOO no matter what is put in front of us. Seeing the way that guard was dealt with after the James St incident in Liverpool has made most drivers realise that their liberty is more important than a few extra bucks. The Government can keep dreaming of DOO but it ain't gonna happen.

Is it not in GWR drivers (as in non HSS) conditions now? Not a provocative question but just out of interest.

 

[dk1]

In my head I seem to remember there was a conductor depot at Colchester that went over to DOO a while ago? I may be wrong.

certianly Southeastern have extended DOO operation in recent times, as have London Overground, of course.

Yes that's wrong. Colchester still has a conductor depot. Nothing has changed.

 

[michael74]

The RMT have said (on the back of the agreement with Merseyrail) that "Wherever we're dealing with somebody who's not directly controlled by the DfT, we're making progress,"

Given that GWR's National Rail Contract commences on 26th June, might that allow GWR to negotiate separately from the national talks and the "cold dead hand of the Government".....

 

[thejuggler]

Having dipped into Question Time last night an issue was raised that the 'outdated practices' means engineers working at eg Kings Cross couldn't work at Euston

There was no time for this to be expanded upon much. There was a brief mention of the railway operating on a regional basis and the railway staff member in the audience did begin to explain that its like expecting an engineer employed by Asda being asked to do a job at Sainsburys, but that's as far as it got.

It highlighted to me that the audience appears to think 'the railway' is a still a single entity and failed to recognise that RMT members are employed by dozens of different private and publicly owned companies, each having responsibility for their own regions and areas of work.

Ironically when the staff member suggested nationalisation as a resolution to the issue raised it didn't go down well.

 

[Falcon1200]

And it has been made clear that if the proposals are adopted, almost all of the reductions will be through not filling vacancies, voluntary redundancy and ‘natural wastage’. There have been repeated statements along the lines of “everyone who wants a job will have one”.

Reality is as you say that the need for compulsory redundancies if a voluntary severance scheme is offered is highly unlikely yet NR haven't included a provision for no compulsory redundancies in the letter to the unions.

I mused a few pages ago, given that the threat of compulsory redundancies is a major issue for the RMT, why NR could not simply drop that particular proposal ?

It highlighted to me that the audience appears to think 'the railway' is a still a single entity and failed to recognise that RMT members are employed by dozens of different private and publicly owned companies, each having responsibility for their own regions and areas of work.

NR is a single entity and there is no reason why their staff, given suitable training of course, should not be able to attend issues nearby, even if not their normal area.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The RMT have said (on the back of the agreement with Merseyrail) that "Wherever we're dealing with somebody who's not directly controlled by the DfT, we're making progress,"

Given that GWR's National Rail Contract commences on 26th June, might that allow GWR to negotiate separately from the national talks and the "cold dead hand of the Government".....

No. See Section 2.2 of everyone’s NRC, paragraph 3.2.

That basically says the DfT has total control over pay and conditions. It’s that stark.