Northern Ticket Machines

[Halwynd]

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern.

My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad.

I placed Debit Card into the Chip & PIN terminal but there was no prompt to enter my PIN number. Despite this, I also tried entering the PIN number - nothing. I then scanned the card against the Contactless terminal - nothing. I then tried to use Apple Pay contactless with my phone - again, nothing - no error messages, just totally unresponsive. I repeated this procedure with my credit card and the same thing happened - no response.

My Debit Card is one of the new style versions with the card details printed on the rear, and is ever so slightly thinner than the card it replaced, but my Credit Card is one of the standard thickness embossed cards (issued by the same bank).

My current account has a healthy credit balance and my credit card today has a zero balance.

As there were no error messages I couldn't take a photograph as 'evidence' of a problem so, having read some of the stories on this forum about folks being issued with Penalty Fares, I decided to abandon my planned day out and walked home - a wasted one hour round trip.

On the way home, I called at a local bakers and made a purchase with my Debit Card using Chip & PIN (for twice the value of the ticket transaction), just to see whether there was a problem with my card or my banks processing system - the transaction processed instantaneously.

Journeycheck seems to list problems with ticket machines that are out of use, so when I arrived home I checked but nothing was listed for my station.

Has anyone had a similar experience with these machines?

Given there was no error message displayed (and I do not tend to carry cash around these days) I thought that I might be in a sticky position when trying to exit my destination station, which has barriers, so didn't want the hassle or the potential fine or, worse, prosecution.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Its sad to read this!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just sounds like a faulty TVM. It happens.

If the OP is concerned and has a smartphone why not download a ticketing app? Also perhaps report the fault (Twitter would be good) as they may not know it is faulty if nobody has told them!

 

[skyhigh]

Possibly a stupid question but did you press the 'pay by card' button or whatever the current wording is when the total prices was displayed on the screen?

 

[Halwynd]

Thanks for the replies.

skyhigh - not a stupid question at all, but it did make me think. On the screen it showed a large icon with the price of the ticket. I didn't do anything else before inserting my Debit Card after the price was displayed on the Chip & PIN keypad. The last ticket machines I used were the Virgin Trains 'FastTicket' variety which operated in this way and with which I never experienced a problem. If I needed to do anything else it certainly wan't obvious.

Bletchleyite - I do use a few Apps for other things - the BPMe app is very good for example - but for rail travel I've always preferred to use paper tickets. I might now download the Trainsplit App, which seems to be recommended on here, and give it a try for my next journey.

 

[Trainbike46]

Did you have cash on you? If so you could have tried to get a promise to pay notice from the machine and pay the guard, or arrival station, in cash?

Obviously, the machine should just work, or give an error if it doesn't, but if it happens again that may be an option for you

 

[Halwynd]

Did you have cash on you? If so you could have tried to get a promise to pay notice from the machine and pay the guard, or arrival station, in cash?

Obviously, the machine should just work, or give an error if it doesn't, but if it happens again that may be an option for you

Thanks for that advice. No, I wasn't carrying cash. I usually use Apple Pay for everything these days but carry the physical Debit and Credit cards with me too, just in case. My local station is unstaffed and this mornings experience has made me realise that you need to have a backup plan when there is no booking office. I did notice when the initial screen displayed that the top left 'icon box' was Promise to Pay, but, as you say, without cash I didn't think it was an option. Many years ago I would have just boarded the train and paid the guard, or at the destination station, safe in the knowledge that there wouldn't have been a problem, but with the possibility of Penalty Fares or prosecutions I'm very wary these days.

 

[SherwoodBandit]

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern. My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad. I placed Debit Card into the Chip & PIN terminal but there was no prompt to enter my PIN number. Despite this, I also tried entering the PIN number - nothing. I then scanned the card against the Contactless terminal - nothing. I then tried to use Apple Pay contactless with my phone - again, nothing - no error messages, just totally unresponsive. I repeated this procedure with my credit card and the same thing happened - no response. My Debit Card is one of the new style versions with the card details printed on the rear, and is ever so slightly thinner than the card it replaced, but my Credit Card is one of the standard thickness embossed cards (issued by the same bank). My current account has a healthy credit balance and my credit card today has a zero balance. As there were no error messages I couldn't take a photograph as 'evidence' of a problem so, having read some of the stories on this forum about folks being issued with Penalty Fares, I decided to abandon my planned day out and walked home - a wasted one hour round trip. On the way home, I called at a local bakers and made a purchase with my Debit Card using Chip & PIN (for twice the value of the ticket transaction), just to see whether there was a problem with my card or my banks processing system - the transaction processed instantaneously. Journeycheck seems to list problems with ticket machines that are out of use, so when I arrived home I checked but nothing was listed for my station.

Has anyone had a similar experience with these machines? Given there was no error message displayed (and I do not tend to carry cash around these days) I thought that I might be in a sticky position when trying to exit my destination station, which has barriers, so didn't want the hassle or the potential fine or, worse, prosecution.

Sorry to hear this GB. Northern TVMs have a light strip running around the top of the machine. If it is showing green it should be working, if it's orange it's run out of paper, if its red it is faulty. Did you happen to notice what colour this one was showing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry to hear this GB. Northern TVMs have a light strip running around the top of the machine. If it is showing green it should be working, if it's orange it's run out of paper, if its red it is faulty. Did you happen to notice what colour this one was showing?

That assumes it's noticed it's faulty. The problem with the card machine may not have been such that the machine knew. For instance the Chiltern TVM I used yesterday (same type) had a non-functional contactless pad despite it appearing to work - touching it simply did nothing. Fortunately the card slot and PIN did work.

Generally if it's noticed, the screen will not allow ticket purchase.

 

[Halwynd]

Sorry to hear this GB. Northern TVMs have a light strip running around the top of the machine. If it is showing green it should be working, if it's orange it's run out of paper, if its red it is faulty. Did you happen to notice what colour this one was showing?

No, I'm afraid I didn't notice the lightstrip. It's the first time I have used one of these machines, so that is useful to know for future reference, thank you for that. All I noticed was that once my ticket selection had been confirmed on the main screen, there was an illuminated green strip - immediately below the card slot (and about the same width as it) on the Chip & PIN keypad - and this lit up. But then no response when I entered my card.

 

[david1212]

TVM's ought to have a 'push for help' button that connects to a support centre. The operator should have the same screen as the TVM and be able to operate the screen plus a camera that can see, but not closely, the card reader i.e. see card presented but contactless not working and see a card inserted but not see PIN code entered.
In this situation the operator should be able to generate a ticket showing the TVM as faulty and the ticket is unpaid.

Given AFAIK all ontrain staff that can issue tickets can accept a card why would ' Promise to Pay ' be cash only ?

 

[Watershed]

Given AFAIK all ontrain staff that can issue tickets can accept a card why would ' Promise to Pay ' be cash only ?

Because the machines accept card but not cash. And where facilities are available, you must buy your ticket before you board. Hence buying on board is, in principle, not permitted when using card.

Of course in practice it's quite different.

 

[Starmill]

If you couldn't use the machine then my recommendation would be to use the help point and explain what's happened. They will probably authorise you to buy on board or at your destination. They make take your name down if you agree to give it and leave you a reference number. This will generate a 'paper trail' which can be followed back to them by staff to prove you had permission to board without a ticket. Alternatively you can speak to customer service on the phone.

 

[yorkie]

Its sad to read this!

It is indeed.

Sadly the rail industry (as a whole - there are of course many exceptions) doesn't really care.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2022 ==

Bletchleyite - I do use a few Apps for other things - the BPMe app is very good for example - but for rail travel I've always preferred to use paper tickets.

I would highly recommend using e-tickets.

As suggested above, another option is to use the help point. No guarantee that you will get to speak to someone or that they will be helpful, but it's certainly another option.

I might now download the Trainsplit App, which seems to be recommended on here, and give it a try for my next journey.

There is no need to install the app if you'd prefer to use the website; whichever you prefer really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2022 ==

My local station is unstaffed and this mornings experience has made me realise that you need to have a backup plan when there is no booking office.

I'd simply use e-tickets as it is the easiest way.

Many years ago I would have just boarded the train and paid the guard, or at the destination station, safe in the knowledge that there wouldn't have been a problem, but with the possibility of Penalty Fares or prosecutions I'm very wary these days.

Sadly, that's the way many train companies want it to be; passengers are considered potential criminals and are to be viewed with suspicion. That's the way the DfT likes it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2022 ==

TVM's ought to have a 'push for help' button that connects to a support centre.

Many stations have help points that do this.

 

[P Binnersley]

Has anyone had a similar experience with these machines?

I took four attempts with two cards to get a ticket at Whaley Bridge a couple of year ago (in the pouring rain). I don't normally have to use Northern machines.

 

[BoroAndy]

A few weeks ago I tried to retrieve some tickets from a TPE station machine. Same problem, no response from the card reader. But when getting your preordered tickets printed you have to put card in and enter pin. Wasted journey. Made online complaint, reply 2 weeks later saying they would look into it. Utter Shambles. In this day and age the machines should always work.

 

[scrapy]

Sorry to hear this GB. Northern TVMs have a light strip running around the top of the machine. If it is showing green it should be working, if it's orange it's run out of paper, if its red it is faulty. Did you happen to notice what colour this one was showing?

Orange indicates some kind of fault but other functions may be working. For example it is unable to top up smartcards but paper tickets still available. Don't automatically assume it's run out of paper if orange, unless the error message says this.

 

[Halwynd]

Thanks again for all your comments, experiences and advice since my last post yesterday - all noted and much appreciated.

 

[Gordonman]

Orange indicates some kind of fault but other functions may be working. For example it is unable to top up smartcards but paper tickets still available. Don't automatically assume it's run out of paper if orange, unless the error message says this.

The orange warning light can also mean that the machine has been degraded.ie at one time would have accepted cash and card payments and has been degraded to card only payments

 

[northernman]

Thanks again for all your comments, experiences and advice since my last post yesterday - all noted and much appreciated.

Hi, can you tell me which station it was please and I'll take a look

 

[Halwynd]

Hi, can you tell me which station it was please and I'll take a look

Hello northernman - very grateful to you, thanks - it was at Gathurst (there is just the one machine in front of the old station building on the Wigan-bound platform). If it is of any use, it was on Monday at around 11:30.

 

[northernman]

Thank you, we will take a look

 

[MaidaVale]

I've had issues with the 'new' Northern machines, particularly at Manchester Victoria near to when they were first introduced. Whilst I was trying to buy a ticket, The machine I was attempting to purchase it on just kept freezing and then crashing back to the start screen. Upon attempting to use the one next to it, It did the exact same thing, and the one next to that simply didn't respond to touch at all. A fair few passengers were having the same issue at the same time, and everyone ended up either going to the traditional booking office, or queuing up at the one machine that was working that was positioned in a different part of the main concourse. None of them had red light bands at the top, and just kept crashing and then assuming back to a normal state.

I've experienced similar issues on Chiltern's newer ones of a similar design (although with cash facilities), a few years ago at Solihull station, where the machine only gave me the small part of the change it owed me in coins, but not the £5 note I should have also received as change from the ammount I put in (and no, it was not split into coins, the coins were just additional). The member of staff in the ticket office (which is just opposite the machine, he would have seen me purchasing the ticket) stated that he couldn't do anything about it, and essentially that it wasn't his problem. Normally, you'd expect them to atleast check for an error and retreive the stuck note like they do for example with self service machines at a supermarket (I realise some ticket office staff are trained on fixing basic faults with TVMs, and others aren't, it depends on the TOC), although he didn't even bother giving me any advice on contacting Chiltern for assistance or anything. (The TVM also didn't give out a receipt, so I had no proof of payment other than the internal digital logs and station CCTV).

 

[Bevan Price]

Did you consider asking the train conductor/guard if they could sell you a ticket on the train?

 

[185]

My favourite comment from one of their guards... "them machines aren't there to sell tickets, don't be silly, they've only put them in so that prosecutions can claim in court people didn't bother use them!"

 

[a_c_skinner]

Like the OP I am happy with tech but I am a bit uneasy with phone tickets, and I'd be deeply uneasy sending Mrs S out with one. She is intelligent and motivated but easily flummoxed.

Is there a buy on line print at home option for Northern? For others? If you can't light a fire with it (paper) a lot of people won't like it.

I should add every Northern guard I've met is kind and helpful with tech but revenue protection is frankly not.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Hi, can you tell me which station it was please and I'll take a look

Any chance you can fix the new(ish) step that forces the purchaser to confirm they’ll be on the next train to depart? If you’re not - eg if it’s leaving in five minutes and you won’t get to the platform in time - the only option is to cancel the transaction which seems obtuse in the extreme

 

[Halwynd]

Did you consider asking the train conductor/guard if they could sell you a ticket on the train?

No. My intended journey involved changing at Wigan Wallgate, and the first leg from Gathurst to Wigan is only around 4 minutes duration. My previous experience (before the ticket machine arrived) is that some guards will go through the train to sell tickets, some will not and some will ask you to buy at Wigan. Before the ticket machine was installed, if I could not purchase onboard I would do so either from the ticket collectors who were often stood at the top of the stairs at Wallgate station, or from the booking office.

With the advent of penalty fares and prosecutions, I would no longer consider boarding a train without a ticket unless the machine had displayed an error message which I could have photographed as evidence, but unfortunately, in this case, it did not. The only other option at an unstaffed station (unless you carry cash and are able to purchase a Permit to Travel) seems to be a smartphone app. I am a happy adoptor of technology, but my first two smartphones - an iPhone 4S and then an SE (2016) - were subject to battery problems and both, particularly the SE, would sometimes crash and power down at unpredictible times (even when above 50% charge), and would only re-boot once plugged into a charger. It was a known problem - 'Batterygate' - and I still have a chuckle when I read or hear the Apple phrase: 'It just works'. I now have a more recent model which has not (yet) exhibited any problems, but the memory of those experiences with the 4S and SE remain in the back of my mind, and this, along with the possibilty of penalty fares, is the reason why I still prefer to use paper tickets if at all possible. Sorry for such a long-winded explanation!

 

[janb]

Is there a buy on line print at home option for Northern? For others? If you can't light a fire with it (paper) a lot of people won't like it.

E-tickets (which can be printed out at home if you wish) are available for most journeys.

 

[LYuen]

Just sounds like a faulty TVM. It happens.

If the OP is concerned and has a smartphone why not download a ticketing app? Also perhaps report the fault (Twitter would be good) as they may not know it is faulty if nobody has told them!

Allow me to rant about this. The Northern Railway app is ill thought through. When I buy a ticket with bank card that need an authorisation (open the bank app and approve the payment), the payment process is cancelled as you 'quits' the transaction screen. So you can't buy a ticket with their app unless you have more than one phones.

Well I know I can use Trainline or buy from other operators, but this is just frustrating.