Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Nicholas Lewis]

Oh don't worry, ASLEF is next

Mick Whelan said at transport committee this morning his executive would decide tomorrow on what next steps are following ballot results.

 

[KM1991]

So another pathetic pay offer. Not only do they expect people to be happy with a pay rise well below inflation this year...they also want to include a pay rise below inflation for next year too. 2% flat offer and not a CPI protected rise. Awful

 

[Annetts key]

The heads of the RMT are living in a world where revenues from passengers is still at pre Covid levels, at some point the tap from the taxman will be reduced.

You really don’t understand unions do you?

It’s the union members that are driving this. And the first discussions on pay started in autumn of last year. That’s nine months ago. The Network Rail position at that time was there would be no pay rise.

Passenger numbers are increasing. In June, government figures list passenger numbers as high as 93% on some days.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So another pathetic pay offer. Not only do they expect people to be happy with a pay rise well below inflation this year...they also want to include a pay rise below inflation for next year too. 2% flat offer and not a CPI protected rise. Awful

I agree with the strike before I go on to reply to this.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when the rail industry was getting above inflation pay rises (as I did for 6 out of my 8 years in the railway). So when times are tough, below inflation is hardly a surprise. Colleagues I spoke to today were happy with the offer, just not the maintenance cuts. That seems to be the main sticking point for people (I know the union also say the pay isnt good enough, but that is not what I hear from colleagues).

 

[Kite159]

You really don’t understand unions do you?

It’s the union members that are driving this. And the first discussions on pay started in autumn of last year. That’s nine months ago. The Network Rail position at that time was there would be no pay rise.

Passenger numbers are increasing. In June, government figures list passenger numbers as high as 93% on some days.

And how much revenue is that 93% bringing in compared to pre Covid?

Without those commuters buying annual season tickets or business travelers buying anytime returns (as they didn't care about the cost as it was all expenses)

 

[LAX54]

I agree with the strike before I go on to reply to this.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when the rail industry was getting above inflation pay rises (as I did for 6 out of my 8 years in the railway). So when times are tough, below inflation is hardly a surprise. Colleagues I spoke to today were happy with the offer, just not the maintenance cuts. That seems to be the main sticking point for people (I know the union also say the pay isnt good enough, but that is not what I hear from colleagues).

Spoke to some of my ex collegues earlier, they seemed as 'happy' as you could get with the offer, although the job cuts were still a big issue.

 

[Moonshot]

I agree with the strike before I go on to reply to this.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when the rail industry was getting above inflation pay rises (as I did for 6 out of my 8 years in the railway). So when times are tough, below inflation is hardly a surprise. Colleagues I spoke to today were happy with the offer, just not the maintenance cuts. That seems to be the main sticking point for people (I know the union also say the pay isnt good enough, but that is not what I hear from colleagues).

Maitainance job cuts will affect no one unless they put in for it

 

[Mag_seven]

So what happens next then since NR stated yesterday that this was their "final" offer which would be withdrawn in the event of strikes? Will be interested to see NRs response .

 

[KM1991]

I agree with the strike before I go on to reply to this.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when the rail industry was getting above inflation pay rises (as I did for 6 out of my 8 years in the railway). So when times are tough, below inflation is hardly a surprise. Colleagues I spoke to today were happy with the offer, just not the maintenance cuts. That seems to be the main sticking point for people (I know the union also say the pay isnt good enough, but that is not what I hear from colleagues).

The maintenance cuts are going to happen regardless, all through the voluntary scheme. And the RMT leadership will accept this if other parts of the offer are fair.

What people shouldn’t accept is low, flat pay rises next year with a figure that will be far below inflation. Protect next years rise with a link to CPI and we will start to see some real progress here.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Transport Committe then has Shoveller (NR) and Montgomery (RDG)

There is absolutely no suggestion of cutting a third of front line staff.

Tim Shoveller at this mornings transport committee said there are 9300 front line mtce staff and the changes to working practices proposed would reduce staff by 1850 or c20% not a third. He affirms that they won't be going back to Railtrack way of outsourcing. Seems most of staff savings are coming from reducing team size as too many people go to a job - guess with red zone working all but banned that is why they could do this. Also rapid response would be one team not multiple teams would also generate alot of staff savings.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Dempsey & Whelan at Transport Committee this morning and giving a good account of themselves despite being goaded by some of the committee. Not sure Buckton and Weighell would have been so restrained.

Transport Committee 13th July (be warned its 90mins)

RMT indicated that latest NR offer would be reviewed by national executive later and it was a good progress but they remain very concerned over the changes to maintenance and what that means for the safety of the railway code for job losses. Dempsey espouses how much RMT has already supported to changes to the way mtce is being done ie with yellow trains and they will collaborate with future changes done in a safe way.

Both identify that govt isn't doing enough to increase patronage.

Whelan says Sundays can be in working week if the salary is right and you have enough staff its been the operators that have driven the level of overtime and RDW by not recruiting. He also does a good job of trying to explain to the committee how rostering works and need for breaks.

Both them quite pushy on how much foreign companies are making out of the railways which should be kept inside the industry as though that is the answer.

Whelan says no further DOO but infers its because of issues with crime taken place inside the carriages although then says that a class 700 is unsafe at London Bridge as driver only has 2s to look at 12 pictures (any driver i know will take the time it takes to check before departing).

Ends with very definitive view from Whelan & Dempsey of what will happen if agency workers are used or minimum service level legislation comes forward.

Not sure Buckton and Weighell would have turned up if either had known the other would be there; didn't they absolutely hate each other?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Isn't the 27th too short notice? It would have to be the 28th now?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And how much revenue is that 93% bringing in compared to pre Covid?

Without those commuters buying annual season tickets or business travelers buying anytime returns (as they didn't care about the cost as it was all expenses)

Steve Montgomery (RDG) said at transport committee this morning that revenue is 75% across all operators but LSE ones its 60-70% and over 80% at leisure centric operators.

All through my railway career we were told the rush hour was very expensive to run so this ought to be an opportunity to right size resources to save costs but too many operators now have expensive train fleets that can't be easily redeployed like BR would have done.

 

[Robertj21a]

You really don’t understand unions do you?

It’s the union members that are driving this. And the first discussions on pay started in autumn of last year. That’s nine months ago. The Network Rail position at that time was there would be no pay rise.

Passenger numbers are increasing. In June, government figures list passenger numbers as high as 93% on some days.

Isn't '93% on some days' rather useless as a figure if there are no figures for 6 other days ?
They could say it's now 105% but if it's only 40% on other days it's still well down.

 

[General Zod]

With the new rail strike due to take place on 27th July will TFL and Avanti West Coast still be running as I don't see those two TOCs mentioned in any reports.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-11...ail-companies-vote-to-strike-amid-pay-dispute

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Passenger numbers are increasing. In June, government figures list passenger numbers as high as 93% on some days.

Which areas are the best in that numerical respect and which are the worst?

Would any industrial action have the effect of lowering these statistics after such action has been in force, thinking of the amount of time that the strike actions of RMT were in force over the last two year period.

 

[Bantamzen]

Actually what you described is the fundamental problem with how our economy currently works. And completely misses the point. Which is that at the moment, it’s the workers (employees) that provide the skills and labour that enables a company or institution to function, that are expected to take the financial hit, rather than the higher management, or the owners of the company or institution.

This is true the world over. And as much as I'd like to see some kind of change, its not going to happen overnight.

Do you really think that in January, the government will not raise regulated railway ticket prices by RPI?

Of course they will, however this will have almost zero impact on most pay negotiations for workforces in the future.

Let’s look at what would happen if no workers (employees) in any company or institution got any pay increases for ten years. Would that help? No, because inflation is likely to rise during that timeframe anyway. There are a number of things that drive inflation. And if wages don’t rise, the workers (employees) effectively get poorer each year. If workers (employees) don’t have any spare money to spend, or are concerned or afraid to spend money in case they may need it in the future, the economy will go into recession.

It is true that inflation will always rise, I guess that is built into how capitalism works. However my point here is that we are facing situations that whilst not unprecedented, are certainly not part of the normal economic landscape. We have the global fallout from covid measures, we have a growing energy & food crisis thanks to war in Ukraine, and now potentially a supply chain crisis thanks to the world's over dependence on Chinese goods just as they decide to literally start to lock their citizens into their homes. And all of these things are putting vast pressure on our economy. And I'm sorry to say that in times like these, publicly funded wages are nowhere near the top of any government's priorities.

Look I am not saying this is right or just, it isn't. But if I'm going to be honest there does seem to be a bit of a culture within the rail industry, based on what I have read in these forums, of an expectation pay rises in line or above of inflation. And if put in a context of a private industry doing reasonably well, that is fair enough. However when the industry starts to lean more and more towards public funding for survival, the game changes. Public sector wages often barely match inflation, let alone exceed it. And why? Well, can you remember the last time the public supported industrial action by public sector workers for above inflation pay rises? I certainly can't, and I have been in the public sector for 35 years. And the reason we don't get public support is simple, we get paid from the Treasury, the same place their taxes are paid to.

All of this will only change if we find a new government committed to rebalancing the economy, putting worth into public services instead of treating them like a burden, something that will certainly not happen under this lot. In the meantime going headlong into a battle with a government that would happily drive the rail industry into the wall, whilst also making things worse for those working people trying to get to work just feeds their agenda. As I have said before, pick your fights & now is in my opinion not the time.

But forcing the working population to become poorer is not going to work.

Work for whom? For the poorest it certainly won't, but then it isn't the poor that get a say...

 

[Tractor37]

With the new rail strike due to take place on 27th July will TFL and Avanti West Coast still be running as I don't see those two TOCs mentioned in any reports.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-11...ail-companies-vote-to-strike-amid-pay-dispute

It’s an RMT strike not an ASLEF strike. So if RMT members at Avanti voted to strike previously then no they won’t be running trains. TfL members weren’t involved I don’t think.

 

[JonathanH]

With the new rail strike due to take place on 27th July will TFL and Avanti West Coast still be running as I don't see those two TOCs mentioned in any reports.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-11...ail-companies-vote-to-strike-amid-pay-dispute

They will be affected by Network Rail staff being on strike, even if the traincrew aren't.

 

[EZJ]

ASLEF are having to re-ballot at TPE due to a legal challenge by the company. Therefore no strike could now be called before September on that TOC.

 

[dk1]

With the new rail strike due to take place on 27th July will TFL and Avanti West Coast still be running as I don't see those two TOCs mentioned in any reports.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-11...ail-companies-vote-to-strike-amid-pay-dispute

Yes as it’s RMT so Network Rail & guards. Are you confusing with ASLEF?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So another pathetic pay offer. Not only do they expect people to be happy with a pay rise well below inflation this year...they also want to include a pay rise below inflation for next year too. 2% flat offer and not a CPI protected rise. Awful

This isn't regular inflation, it's global Pandemic + Ukraine war inflation.
We will all be losers unless our GDP output counterbalances the increased costs - which it won't.
So the question is, how can the railway increase its earnings (or cut its costs) by 10-ish percent?

 

[Bluejays]

If the offer was 4%backdated and 2% next year, then personally I'd have been happy to accept that. Although I fully understand why many of my colleagues and the union negotiators are not happy with it. The one I'm certain about though. If this offer had been made back in December/January time I don't think there'd have been ballots called.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ASLEF are having to re-ballot at TPE due to a legal challenge by the company. Therefore no strike could now be called before September on that TOC.

Surely when a union put forward a ballot to their membership, the ballot wording would be first examined by their legal team first to circumvent any legal challenge made by a TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2022 ==

If this offer had been made back in December/January time I don't think there'd have been ballots called.

You are talking of a time period over six months old.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely when a union put forward a ballot to their membership, the ballot wording would be first examined by their legal team first to circumvent any legal challenge made by a TOC.

Legal challenges are far more than about wording. A common one is if there's a discrepancy in who was balloted for example.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Passenger numbers are increasing. In June, government figures list passenger numbers as high as 93% on some days.

Passenger numbers and revenue are two separate things and revenue is still a long way back. Revenue is needed to fund pay rises. You can’t pay railway staff in passengers!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Legal challenges are far more than about wording. A common one is if there's a discrepancy in who was balloted for example.

Surely it is up to the union concerned to ensure that all is done correctly. They are acting on behalf of all their members.

 

[Bluejays]

Surely when a union put forward a ballot to their membership, the ballot wording would be first examined by their legal team first to circumvent any legal challenge made by a TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2022 ==


You are talking of a time period over six months old.

I'm perfectly aware that January was over 6 months ago.

 

[LAX54]

Transport Committe then has Shoveller (NR) and Montgomery (RDG)

Tim Shoveller at this mornings transport committee said there are 9300 front line mtce staff and the changes to working practices proposed would reduce staff by 1850 or c20% not a third. He affirms that they won't be going back to Railtrack way of outsourcing. Seems most of staff savings are coming from reducing team size as too many people go to a job - guess with red zone working all but banned that is why they could do this. Also rapid response would be one team not multiple teams would also generate alot of staff savings.

With the push to NO Red Zone working, overall they get less work done, as the time it takes to do the paperwork before work starts, and still give up in time for green signals is very short in many places, a big gang will get a fair amount done, reduce the headcount, less work, more ESR's !
With bigger signal centres covering a bigger area with one signaller, even less work is done, with limits on the amount of line blockages at one time on a panel / workstation

 

[Annetts key]

And how much revenue is that 93% bringing in compared to pre Covid?

Without those commuters buying annual season tickets or business travelers buying anytime returns (as they didn't care about the cost as it was all expenses)

Not everyone can work from home. So there will always be some commuters. Yes business travel has fallen. But we are still not back in normal times yet. No one really knows what will happen in the long term. Given the rate of rise of passenger growth over the last ten years, and with leisure travel increases, it’s possible that ticket revenue may still increase back to pre-COVID19 levels.

Oh, and 50% of my mod deals with freight, and that that’s been less affected.

The government are using the reduction of the fare box as a reason to cut spending on the railways. That’s continuing the Conservative policy of reducing the amount of money they spend on the railways for day to day operations, including on maintenance.

Maitainance job cuts will affect no one unless they put in for it

Are you volunteering to come and help lift 60 foot rail sections then?