Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[HORNIMANS]

Every ones conditions have been eroded Pensions, pay , holidays, hours you name it. High inflation affects us all but the lowest pay more. you are right to say taxes have risen.
I would have loved to have had a job on the railways I was unable to get one but at time I would have done it for nothing.
During my working life i have only earned a fraction of what you guys earn in retail.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Reading this thread I think some people are getting confused about the rate of inflation and how it relates to a cost of living rise.

The inflation rate (CPI and RPI) is expressed as a rolling average over the past 12 months.

NR have offered 4% backdated to January. At that time CPI was 5.5% and RPI was 7.8% so that's what you've got to compare the offer against, not whatever rate inflation might be now or at some arbitrary point in the future (this is the case whether inflation is going up or down). You can't just keep moving the goalposts based on when negotiations are taking place.

I'd have thought people's focus should be on the offered 2% from January 2023. The gap between that offer and the RPI rate then is likely to be far greater than the equivalent gap for January 2022.

Indeed, and the RMT have always said this dispute with NR is more than just pay. Seeing a decent pay offer for this year in exchange for cutting up to a third of front line staffing can't surely be seen as acceptable right? Then adding just 2% for next year which would've incredibly low even without rampant inflation.

Every ones conditions have been eroded Pensions, pay , holidays, hours you name it. High inflation affects us all but the lowest pay more. you are right to say taxes have risen.
I would have loved to have had a job on the railways I was unable to get one but at time I would have done it for nothing.
During my working life i have only earned a fraction of what you guys earn in retail.

Depending on roles, I did nearly 15 years in retail maxing out at about £24k. Far higher than some railway roles, although conductor and drivers are obviously higher but it isn't just about those roles.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, and the RMT have always said this dispute with NR is more than just pay. Seeing a decent pay offer for this year in exchange for cutting up to a third of front line staffing can't surely be seen as acceptable right? Then adding just 2% for next year which would've incredibly low even without rampant inflation.

People seem to be arguing about leisure Priv v Residential Priv while ignoring what seems to me to be the most contentious part of the offer, the January 2023 pay offer.

 

[Broucek]

NR have offered 4% backdated to January

4% was more than most private sector organisations awarded in Jan (median/mid-point was c.3.5%)

 

[VP185]

I'm glad you mentioned the current climate. Because here's the reason why any government, not just this current circus would balk at the idea of rubber stamping an inflation busting pay rise

No one is asking for an inflation busting payrise, just a fair one. No one is expecting 11%.

You either fall into one of two camps;
Either the current cost of living is a temporary blip and prices will revert to pre-Covid levels OR
The current prices are the new normal.

Surely a more workable solution would be a 2% rise in basic pay followed by a additional 5% on top on as a one off payment?

 

[baz962]

You could offer them a penny and people will still call it too much.

In what timescale. A penny an hour is far too much, how would I ever spend it all. A penny a day should suffice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You either fall into one of two camps;
Either the current cost of living is a temporary blip and prices will revert to pre-Covid levels OR
The current prices are the new normal.

It's a bit more awkward than that.

It's more a case of:

1. Increased energy prices are probably the new normal, even though they may go down a bit in the short term they are likely to go up substantially over time.
2. The fix to this is not a pay rise, but rather that we reduce energy consumption by insulating our homes better, installing heat pumps and reducing car travel, particularly over short distances in urban areas. Industry will also need to change, e.g. reducing "food miles" by purchasing and selling local fresh produce in supermarkets, not shipping them around the country nor from other countries.

 

[Efini92]

In what timescale. A penny an hour is far too much, how would I ever spend it all. A penny a day should suffice.

You’re being greedy. We’ll get a penny a month

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In what timescale. A penny an hour is far too much, how would I ever spend it all. A penny a day should suffice.

That mention of a penny brings the 19th century child labour period to mind.....
"See Saw, Margery Daw,
Jenny shall have a new master
She shall earn but a penny a day
Because she can't work any faster".

 

[JoeyB]

4% was more than most private sector organisations awarded in Jan (median/mid-point was c.3.5%)

Average weekly earnings in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics

Estimates of growth in earnings for employees before tax and other deductions from pay.

www.ons.gov.uk

"Average total pay growth for the private sector was 8.2% in January to March 2022, and for the public sector was 1.6% in the same time period; the finance and business services sector showed the largest growth rate (10.7%), partly because of strong bonus payments."

 

[Goldfish62]

Average weekly earnings in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics

Estimates of growth in earnings for employees before tax and other deductions from pay.

www.ons.gov.uk

"Average total pay growth for the private sector was 8.2% in January to March 2022, and for the public sector was 1.6% in the same time period; the finance and business services sector showed the largest growth rate (10.7%), partly because of strong bonus payments."

If you read the whole document you'll see that what you've quoted is highly selective as it includes non-consolidated bonuses and is the average, not the median.

Employers like bonuses because they're non-consolidated and non-pensionable with no future liability. Employees dislike them for the same reason. They're no substitute for a consolidated pay rise.

 

[87electric]

It's a bit more awkward than that.

It's more a case of:

1. Increased energy prices are probably the new normal, even though they may go down a bit in the short term they are likely to go up substantially over time.
2. The fix to this is not a pay rise, but rather that we reduce energy consumption by insulating our homes better, installing heat pumps and reducing car travel, particularly over short distances in urban areas. Industry will also need to change, e.g. reducing "food miles" by purchasing and selling local fresh produce in supermarkets, not shipping them around the country nor from other countries.

When our populace become aware of the cost of installations of heat pumps (Air pump - £6,000 to £8,000 or Ground pump £10,000 to £18,000) there will be questions. No one will have that cash to splash however much they are told it’s for the greater good.
A chat with my own plumber, as he put a new gas boiler in for me, confirmed his doubts on its rollout due to the projected costs.
Sorry for the off topic reply to this off topic quote.

https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pumps/ Apologies also if I have linked wrongly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone clarify a point for me. Was the projected rise in National Insurance Contributions aimed specifically at a ring-fenced NHS beneficiary or were the monies raised allowed to be used on other Governmental projects?

Average weekly earnings in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics

Estimates of growth in earnings for employees before tax and other deductions from pay.

www.ons.gov.uk

"Average total pay growth for the private sector was 8.2% in January to March 2022, and for the public sector was 1.6% in the same time period; the finance and business services sector showed the largest growth rate (10.7%), partly because of strong bonus payments."

Thank heaven that Britain does not currently find itself in the same fiscal nightmare as seen in the media items in Sri Lanka.

 

[Broucek]

["Average total pay growth for the private sector was 8.2% in January to March 2022, and for the public sector was 1.6% in the same time period; the finance and business services sector showed the largest growth rate (10.7%), partly because of strong bonus payments."

My earlier comment (3.5% median in the private sector) was for base salary. As an aside, that figure is also for individuals who stay with a company whereas the ONS figures are aggregated and therefore include people who move job - as such they are a weak point of comparison for pay awards in a particular company or industry.

More seriously, as Goldfish62 notes, the ONS figures include non-consolidated bonuses. These have increased significantly year-on-year but the context is that payments were depressed in early 2021 as those payments were mostly in respect of 2020 performance which was lousy in the majority of businesses due to COVID. As such, part of that "increase" was actually a "rebound".

 

[Bletchleyite]

When our populace become aware of the cost of installations of heat pumps (Air pump - £6,000 to £8,000 or Ground pump £10,000 to £18,000) there will be questions. No one will have that cash to splash however much they are told it’s for the greater good.
A chat with my own plumber, as he put a new gas boiler in for me, confirmed his doubts on its rollout due to the projected costs.
Sorry for the off topic reply to this off topic quote.

https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pumps/ Apologies also if I have linked wrongly.

A fridge freezer is a heat pump. They cost about £200.

Prices will come down.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm glad you mentioned the current climate. Because here's the reason why any government, not just this current circus would balk at the idea of rubber stamping an inflation busting pay rise.

Let's just say that it does happen, what impact will that have on the rest of the publicly funded workforce. Rail workers get lets say 11%, but the public sector as a whole is offered 2%-3%. Of course this will cause widespread anger, and likely trigger more industrial action. So the government relents and gives the entire public sector 11% as well. But they've got to fund it somehow, after this will be an unprecedented that's going to hit budgets hard. Therefore the options would be:

• Tax rises from the 2023/24 fiscal year. Given that this will roll dangerously close to the next general election, its an unlikely option to be taken.
• Cutbacks in public services. Again given the looming GE, it would be a brave cabinet to announce cutbacks to fund pay rises, and of course realistically would be counterproductive. There's no point giving huge pay rises only to then cut back on the workforce & be even less able to deliver services.
• Quantitive Easing. This might seem like the easy option, just shake the magic money tree again and the problem goes away. Well sadly it doesn't, yes its been shaken many times over the last couple of years, but we are going to have to pay for that one way or another. The value of the pound is shrinking against the dollar, meaning that commodities bought in the American currency are going to be more expensive, and a lot of key ones are. I can't imagine printing more cash is going to help that one bit.

But let's just imagine one of these options are taken and its 11% pay rises are all around. What impact will that have on private sector workers? Of course they are going to start asking why they are not getting the same. Cue even more unrest and industrial action. And where employers cave in and award these rates, who do you suppose will pay for it? That's right, the customers. So prices rise even more, potentially triggering even higher rates of inflation, meaning even more claims for higher pay awards in the future, leading to even more cost. Suddenly we could find ourselves in a loop of hyper-inflation, constantly having to revalue of currency to the point where we will need a wheelbarrow full of notes just to buy a loaf of bread with cash (OK that might be the extreme conclusion, but you should hopefully get my point).

Is situation fair on ordinary folk? No, of course it isn't. I'm sure we would all love a big pay rise to get us through, but it simply isn't going to happen because we as a country can't afford it. Sure some areas might get much more than others, but I would bet that those areas that get the cash today will be facing big cutbacks tomorrow. What we actually need is for a competent government to tackle the root cause of the problem, inflation. Then more modest, and much more affordable pay rises would still see us improve our lot.

Actually what you described is the fundamental problem with how our economy currently works. And completely misses the point. Which is that at the moment, it’s the workers (employees) that provide the skills and labour that enables a company or institution to function, that are expected to take the financial hit, rather than the higher management, or the owners of the company or institution.

Do you really think that in January, the government will not raise regulated railway ticket prices by RPI?

Let’s look at what would happen if no workers (employees) in any company or institution got any pay increases for ten years. Would that help? No, because inflation is likely to rise during that timeframe anyway. There are a number of things that drive inflation. And if wages don’t rise, the workers (employees) effectively get poorer each year. If workers (employees) don’t have any spare money to spend, or are concerned or afraid to spend money in case they may need it in the future, the economy will go into recession.

The U.K. economy is already on the edge of recession.

Do I know the solution? No.

But forcing the working population to become poorer is not going to work.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seeing a decent pay offer for this year in exchange for cutting up to a third of front line staffing can't surely be seen as acceptable right?

There is absolutely no suggestion of cutting a third of front line staff.

 

[Moonshot]

There is absolutely no suggestion of cutting a third of front line staff.

Indeed there isn't. No doubt some jobs will go however, but this will be more than covered by the amount of employees putting in for a VS package.

 

[Annetts key]

It's a bit more awkward than that.

It's more a case of:

1. Increased energy prices are probably the new normal, even though they may go down a bit in the short term they are likely to go up substantially over time.
2. The fix to this is not a pay rise, but rather that we reduce energy consumption by insulating our homes better, installing heat pumps and reducing car travel, particularly over short distances in urban areas. Industry will also need to change, e.g. reducing "food miles" by purchasing and selling local fresh produce in supermarkets, not shipping them around the country nor from other countries.

I’m shocked, I’m agreeing with one of your posts!

Western countries have relied for far too long on fossil fuel prices being relatively low and stable. And of production of parts or products manufactured elsewhere also having stable prices.

To get out of our current economic mess, we need to invest in being more energy efficient (the measures listed by Bletchleyite) plus any and all other reasonable sane energy efficiency measures. That includes more investment in electric vehicle fast charging points to encourage a faster take up of electric vehicles.

Changes to building regulations, and incentives to encourage solar PV or hot water solar panels on roofs. Both on homes and commercial property.

Large heat storage systems, that can supply homes with heat collected during the summer during the winter.

If the first world countries can reduce the demand for fossil fuels, the price of these fuels will come down.

When our populace become aware of the cost of installations of heat pumps (Air pump - £6,000 to £8,000 or Ground pump £10,000 to £18,000) there will be questions. No one will have that cash to splash however much they are told it’s for the greater good.
A chat with my own plumber, as he put a new gas boiler in for me, confirmed his doubts on its rollout due to the projected costs.
Sorry for the off topic reply to this off topic quote.

https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pumps/ Apologies also if I have linked wrongly.

Yes, this technology is currently expensive. But then the projected cost of energy is still going up:

Many observers predict that the price cap will increase substantially in October 2022. The chief executive of Ofgem said it could rise by 40% to around £2,800 in October. Other more recent forecasts have been in the region of £3,250 and fixed price deals in April averaged over £3,000.

Link
Elsewhere some are now forecasting that energy prices may stay high until 2030. (link).
So if building owners were to be given a grant of some kind, or other assistance, they may be better off with a heat pump.

Back to the industrial dispute. It’s far from just about a wage rise. It’s also about jobs, terms and conditions, working practices, safety, reliability, and customer service.

 

[Worldwide]

Indeed there isn't. No doubt some jobs will go however, but this will be more than covered by the amount of employees putting in for a VS package.

I know they was all kicking off when VS wasn't offered to them I think NR are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont.

The VS will be open until 2024 which is a hell of a long time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there anything in the current union rules that would not allow fully paid up members to take advantage of VS?

 

[_toommm_]

One-day strike on 27th July. Shame as I was due to be on a railtour that day

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Dempsey & Whelan at Transport Committee this morning and giving a good account of themselves despite being goaded by some of the committee. Not sure Buckton and Weighell would have been so restrained.

Transport Committee 13th July (be warned its 90mins)

RMT indicated that latest NR offer would be reviewed by national executive later and it was a good progress but they remain very concerned over the changes to maintenance and what that means for the safety of the railway code for job losses. Dempsey espouses how much RMT has already supported to changes to the way mtce is being done ie with yellow trains and they will collaborate with future changes done in a safe way.

Both identify that govt isn't doing enough to increase patronage.

Whelan says Sundays can be in working week if the salary is right and you have enough staff its been the operators that have driven the level of overtime and RDW by not recruiting. He also does a good job of trying to explain to the committee how rostering works and need for breaks.

Both them quite pushy on how much foreign companies are making out of the railways which should be kept inside the industry as though that is the answer.

Whelan says no further DOO but infers its because of issues with crime taken place inside the carriages although then says that a class 700 is unsafe at London Bridge as driver only has 2s to look at 12 pictures (any driver i know will take the time it takes to check before departing).

Ends with very definitive view from Whelan & Dempsey of what will happen if agency workers are used or minimum service level legislation comes forward.

 

[duncanp]

A one day strike has been called for Wednesday 27th July.

Rail strike: New walkout to take place on 27 July

Rail workers will walk out as part of an ongoing dispute over pay, jobs and conditions, the RMT union says.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is breaking news at the moment, so there is no more detail.

Interesting that is just one strike, and only for one day.

Rail strike: New walkout to take place on 27 July​

Railway workers are to stage a one-day strike on Wednesday 27 July as part of ongoing dispute over pay, jobs and conditions, the RMT union says.
It comes after thousands of rail workers took part in national strike action in June.

 

[_toommm_]

The link to The Guardian has a bit more detail thus far:

Rail workers to strike across Britain on 27 July, union announces

RMT members at train operators and Network Rail to stage industrial action in dispute over pay and conditions

www.theguardian.com

Train staff will again strike on 27 July in an ongoing dispute over pay, jobs and conditions, the Rail, Maritime and Transport union has announced.

Members of the RMT at train companies and Network Rail will walk out for 24 hours on 27 July.

Union leaders made the announcement after rejecting a new offer from Network Rail which they described as “paltry”.

The offer was for a 4% pay rise backdated to January, another 2% next year and a further 2% conditional on achieving “modernisation milestones”.

The RMT said it has yet to receive a pay offer or guarantees over job losses from the train operating companies.

The union said it would be consulting other unions that have delivered mandates for strike action in the coming days, amid talk of co-ordinated walkouts.

Members of the drivers’ union Aslef and the Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association (TSSA) at train companies have backed industrial action in recent days.

More to follow …

 

[Kite159]

Start of the Commonwealth games? I wouldn't be surprised on more dates to come out in the next few days to target that event.

The heads of the RMT are living in a world where revenues from passengers is still at pre Covid levels, at some point the tap from the taxman will be reduced.

 

[Annetts key]

Is there anything in the current union rules that would not allow fully paid up members to take advantage of VS?

The RMT want to protect both its current members and future members. That includes staff who will have to cope with whatever the workplace turns into. Reasonable adjustments where the number of posts can be reduced without affecting services are not a problem.

But the companies can’t currently provide the RMT with a template of how the so called new organisation will look like (on Network Rail there is an existing national template).

Until a new national template is available and has been agreed, the RMT are reluctant to discuss VS.

Also the RMT would like any VS payout to be reasonable. There are also the differences in how a VS payout is taxed.

 

[JonathanH]

Start of the Commonwealth games? I wouldn't be surprised on more dates to come out in the next few days to target that event.

Day before.

 

[175001]

Start of the Commonwealth games? I wouldn't be surprised on more dates to come out in the next few days to target that event.

The heads of the RMT are living in a world where revenues from passengers is still at pre Covid levels, at some point the tap from the taxman will be reduced.

Oh don't worry, ASLEF is next

 

[Moonshot]

Is there anything in the current union rules that would not allow fully paid up members to take advantage of VS?

None whatsoever.....it's a free choice. Plenty would take it as things stand