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Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

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mpthomson

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Decent post. I once knew a nurse who admitted there was no rules about them being under the influence of alcohol on duty. The railway is a strichter world altogether in so many ways.

And just another point, most of the nurses doing 12 hour shifts also do a 3, yes a 3 day week. So let's not all feel too sorry for them (although they have my utmost admiration and respect!).
There have been policies regarding staff being under the influence of alcohol or drugs (including prescription drugs) in the NHS for decades. I was firing people for it and reporting them to the various regulatory bodies (NMC/GMC/RCOT etc) 20 years ago... For a nurse it often means being struck off and did back then as well.
 
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Kipperthecat

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Why ? No real impact on current signallers, TMS actually benefits us (where we’re trained to use it) no compulsory redundancies for the life of the deal. The only issue I can see is the uplift to 67 vice 65.

The proposed increase in pay will now cover the current lose in strikes, I’d also say the self evidence proposals need work to allow us the time to compile the files.

Where are you getting your information from ?
I haven’t seen any proposals. I have “heard” that Network Rail want to introduce new technology (spoiler alert : they already have, which have/ are reducing the number of signallers required. No strikes for that !)

Compulsory retirement at 67 is not something I would be prepared to strike over. If Network Rail want to potentially lose that experience, more fool them.

The one I’m really interested in knowing about is the self evidence proposals. This has been bubbling away for a number of years and I’ve heard recently something on this is being actively looked at. Would love to know the details and who this came from.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The same place TOCs make hundreds of millions for ‘managing’ the railways.
Last time I looked, Network Rail and 3 of the TOCs involved in the strikes (LNER, Northern, Southeastern) were government-owned and run.
The shareholders are the taxpayers.
 
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I listened to Tim Shoveller at the Transport Committee earlier and he was basically saying there are too many people in each team for the work required. He was saying four people turn up for a job when two will do and that if more than one discipline is required this gets multiplied up hence they want to create multi disciplined response teams. My guess on the above rostering changes is that NR has all but given up the need to have people working days now other than for response since it banned red zone working. This means its having to payout overtime for more shifts to get staff when it can deploy them hence this drastic change in T&C's. I won't go off at a tangent how this is sensible on many low frequency routes but its hardly surprising if you don't offer remuneration to compensate for such a change the workforce aren't going to be very amenable.
Some of the examples that they've used are ridiculous and will never work. That's why I'm not too bothered about cross discipline working, it'll eat itself up within 12 months and they'll have to revert back to the old ways.
 

Annetts key

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when you say “true it’s not a 40% pay rise”, does that mean you knew what you originally said was incorrect when you wrote it?
Maybe you should read what I actually said:
and some management level engineers get an improvement package that is worth between 12% and nearly 40%.

Of course if any network rail engineer isn't happy about the work shifting from days to more nights/weekends they always have the option to hand their notice in and go to work elsewhere for more stable hours.
Some already have resigned over rosters. I don’t know the reasons for everyone leaving (obviously). But I do know that in some places, the number of vacancies is high enough that local management are finding it difficult and are asking for the “pause” in recruitment (agreed between the company and the unions earlier this year) to be relaxed.

Also, ask yourself why Network Rail are so convinced that they can give a no compulsory redundancy agreement for maintenance and infrastructure staff, and why they think this will work, with enough of the staff leaving via a voluntary severance scheme?

Im guessing the issue is that as NR has banned red zone working along with making sure line blockages can be managed safely its pushing a lot of work into nights and weekend possessions and thus the current team structure isn't optimised to that way of working. That said this isn't of the workforces making and whilst it theoretically makes it safer for them (i have a view that working in the dark brings other risks albeit less risky than being hit by a train) they shouldn't be penalised in this way. Yes tell the workforce we are moving to this way of working for reasons , y & z and we need to amend your t&c's and open up a dialogue with the union. Then from the savings you make by reducing the number of staff no longer required for lookout duties you recycle this back into the workforces pay. Whats happening here is a pay rise is being linked to agreeing this the two are separate issues.
The frustrating thing is, is that working at night, in either a T3 (engineering occupation) worksite or in a line block (safeguarded), is not always safer than working with lookout protection. A properly implemented lookout warning system is perfectly safe. And mistakes can be made that mean that a safeguarded/separated (lineblock) may not be as safe as it should be.

Let’s look at some examples.

I don’t consider a T3 worksite to be safe if while you are concentrating on your work, a ‘360’ on track machine (like a JCB) which is holding a 60 foot rail drives right up to you, while the rail it’s carrying swings nearly above your head. Yes, this has happened.

Or where either the T3 protection boards or the worksite marker boards are placed in the wrong place. Again, this has happened. {Outside a worksite, the line is to be considered as open to train movements (engineering trains, on track machine etc.) unless there are no movements in the whole T3}.

Especially in junction areas, mistakes with line blocks can be potentially deadly.

One time there was a mistake with the points number that staff were working on. So the protection was arranged for one set of points, but the staff were working on another set of points… this may even have been a typo, as the difference between the two point numbers was a single digit.

Another time, the team leader did not understand that the safe system of work pack with the line block form did not protect the whole junction. Even though the planned work required this. As far as the signaller was concerned, one line was still available and open to traffic. So they ran a train on this line. It was just luck that the staff on the ground that had been working across all the lines happened to be clear of this line when the train travelled through the junction area.

Once, when a line block was overrunning, at the change-over between signallers, the signaller that had just come on duty got confused. Removed the reminder appliances and signalled a train into the line block. Luckily the signaller on the adjacent workstation realised and the protecting signal was put back to red before the train went through.

The unions are disappointed that Network Rail are not using available technology to make lookout protection safer. There are various systems that automatically generate a warning. And which could be used (some of these are existing technologies or systems that are available right now), rather than this catch all no ‘red zone’ working.

We can’t even cross a railway line now. Even if it’s a 15MPH line with good sighting distance.

Working at night where your body clock is messed up, appears to cause health problems in later life.
Working at night increases the risk of falling over an object (or hole) that you did not see.
Working at night means you have to take site lighting as well as all the tools and equipment to site. Most teams don’t have any form of transportation to use in a line block on the railway line. So it’s a case of carrying it all while walking (it could be two miles or more).

And now they want less staff which will make it even harder…
 
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Need2

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595
Be b Of course if any network rail engineer isn't happy about the work shifting from days to no more nights/weekends they always have the option to hand their notice in and go to work elsewhere for more stable hours.
There is always one
Give your head a wobble, everyone is perfectly entitled to walk away from a job if they dont like it.
Followed by another
You jokers always want it both ways. ‘You know what the pay was for the job when you applied so don’t expect any pay rise’, now it’s ‘forget about whatever contract you signed, if you don’t like the change to your terms and conditions then leave’
Couldn’t have put it better myself!
 

Moonshot

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There is always one

Followed by another

Couldn’t have put it better myself!
Here is my message to anyone on the NR pway gangs.......if you get offered VS then take it. The job isn't going to get any better.
 

Signal_Box

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Where are you getting your information from ?
I haven’t seen any proposals. I have “heard” that Network Rail want to introduce new technology (spoiler alert : they already have, which have/ are reducing the number of signallers required. No strikes for that !)

Compulsory retirement at 67 is not something I would be prepared to strike over. If Network Rail want to potentially lose that experience, more fool them.

The one I’m really interested in knowing about is the self evidence proposals. This has been bubbling away for a number of years and I’ve heard recently something on this is being actively looked at. Would love to know the details and who this came from.

TSSA newsletter with the offers in full.

Why on gods earth would anyone want to work shifts at 66/67/68+ !
 

YorkshireBear

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There is always one

Followed by another

Couldn’t have put it better myself!

Agree with you here.

Basically what some people seem to think is that because Network Rail are making flawed decisions about pushing works to nights I should just quit and change my entire profession.
 

Annetts key

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Why on gods earth would anyone want to work shifts at 66/67/68+ !
Why should a healthy and fit over 67 year old, that wants to continue working, and who is still fully capable of doing the job, be forced out?

EDIT: yes, we have some people in that category. END of EDIT.

Especially when other groups of staff within Network Rail will not be subjected to this enforced retirement age?

And especially since the law was changed to allow your date of retirement to be your personal choice (within reason)?
 

Moonshot

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Agree with you here.

Basically what some people seem to think is that because Network Rail are making flawed decisions about pushing works to nights I should just quit and change my entire profession.
That is a choice entirely down to yourself...they are flawed decisions in your opinion only. But the reality is that headcount is going to be reduced by 2000;plus. Whether you want to be one of those is entirely up to you
 

Watershed

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Despite the apparent progress, the feedback to the reps from the members, and hence to the NEC (national executive committee) was that due to all the conditions, it’s still very far from acceptable. During a video conference involving over 400 members on Network Rail maintenance, not a single person said that it’s acceptable.
In such a strongly unionised industry, it's quite plausible that anyone who agreed with the proposals, or at least considered them the 'least worst' option, was afraid to speak up and say so. I would certainly feel that way.
 

Moonshot

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In such a strongly unionised industry, it's quite plausible that anyone who agreed with the proposals, or at least considered them the 'least worst' option, was afraid to speak up and say so. I would certainly feel that way.
They have the ability to have there voice heard .....it's called a ballot paper
 

43066

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No there isn’t - the problem is the railway has created ridiculously high barriers to entry.

Nonsense. You just apply, pass the tests, pass the training and you’re in. Worked for me. It’s competitive because unlike pilot training, TOCs cover the cost so only take on people they feel are good enough to pass the training.

Take my own case (not that I particularly want to drive trains): I have a pilot’s licence,

I also have a PPL and have passed the ATPL theory exams. I can confirm those are a good bit harder than railway rules exams, but are sub GCSE level multiple choice exams. Nothing like A level let alone degree level study.

I am entirely free to fly commercially, and yet I would not be offered a train driver position.

You’ve previously admitted you also don’t have a job flying (you said you’re some sort of airline roster clerk IIRC). This revelation certainly explains your evident resentment of train-crew. I’d be willing to bet money you’re also on PPRUNE, moaning about pilots’ pay and conditions!

The main obstacle to getting a commercial pilots license is money. Flight schools will put anyone with a pulse through the course, irrespective of suitability for employment, just so long as they stump up the cash. Only a few of those go on to get flying positions. It sounds like you might be in the former category yourself.


Tell me which of the two - pilot or train driver - is more critical from a passenger safety point of view.

A rather silly question - fairly obviously a train driver is going to be rather more critical to railway passengers than a pilot, a pilot more critical to aviation passengers than a train driver.

Comparing the jobs is futile - although I’d observe that the training for both pilot and train driver takes about the same time and costs about the same, so pilots arguably make a better bench mark for train driver salaries than the usual bus drivers/van drivers who can be trained up in a matter of a few days.

It also doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that there will be many people capable of passing the aviation licenses who are unable to get into train driving, for whatever reason.

I’ll give you a clue - if yiu say train driver you are delusional.

Since you’re clearly neither a pilot nor a train driver, I reckon your opinion on either role is pretty irrelevant!
 
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mrd269697

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Funny how without the DFT, merseyrail staff have just overwhelmingly accepted a 7.1% pay rise, following similar agreements with London Underground, Crossrail and DLR. To me, it shows who is dragging their feet here.
 

YorkshireBear

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That is a choice entirely down to yourself...they are flawed decisions in your opinion only. But the reality is that headcount is going to be reduced by 2000;plus. Whether you want to be one of those is entirely up to you

I do not work in maintenance... I am not referring to job losses in what I said.

Moving all engineering and inspection work to nights to stop people coming into contact with trains is not possible because you cannot view everything at night.
 

yorksrob

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Only eight companies confirmed (needless to say all the ones round here are on the list). Are there any more to come out have the others voted against ?
 

Efini92

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Only eight companies confirmed (needless to say all the ones round here are on the list). Are there any more to come out have the others voted against ?
There’s a few ballots that close on the 27th.
I believe northern and TPE have to be re balloted.
 

footprints

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Funny how without the DFT, merseyrail staff have just overwhelmingly accepted a 7.1% pay rise, following similar agreements with London Underground, Crossrail and DLR. To me, it shows who is dragging their feet here.
Isn't the London Underground pay rise just the fourth year of a previous pay deal agreed in early 2020?
 
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