Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Lancy99]

That's interesting. BBC have listed them as taking part.

Says it all really. False reporting yet again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe you should read what I actually said:

I did.

and no one is getting a 40% pay rise.

so why write it?

 

[Mag_seven]

That's interesting. BBC have listed them as taking part.

Best go to the ASLEF website:

ASLEF Announces Strike Date | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced a day of strike action after train companies failed to make a pay offer to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living.

aslef.org.uk

ASLEF members at eight companies – Arriva Rail London; Chiltern Railways; Greater Anglia; Great Western; Hull Trains; LNER; Southeastern; and West Midlands Trains – will strike on Saturday 30 July.

 

[Efini92]

That's interesting. BBC have listed them as taking part.

They’ve corrected their mistake now.

 

[Skymonster]

You’ve previously admitted you also don’t have a job flying (you said you’re some sort of airline roster clerk IIRC). This revelation certainly explains your evident resentment of train-crew. I’d be willing to bet money you’re also on PPRUNE, moaning about pilots’ pay and conditions!

The main obstacle to getting a commercial pilots license is money. Flight schools will put anyone with a pulse through the course, irrespective of suitability for employment, just so long as they stump up the cash. Only a few of those go on to get flying positions. It sounds like you might be in the former category yourself.



Since you’re clearly neither a pilot nor a train driver, I reckon your opinion on either role is pretty irrelevant!

All wrong as far as my background is concerned. I am not and never have been “some sort of roster clerk”, and at the time when I could quite viably have gone on fly commercially I was earning far too much and enjoying a far better lifestyle doing other things to contemplate the lowly salaries then on offer to newly qualified airline pilots. I have no retrospective regrets in the decision I made, and I certainly don’t spend time on PPRuNe moaning about pilots.

I think, despite your claimed background, that you are deluded if you believe the main obstacle to earning a living from flying is a lack on money. In some cases money may be an impediment to getting all the way down that road, but sooner or later those with money but not capable of making the grade fall by the wayside. Nevertheless, if the railway used a similar model with commercial independent training available, I’d bet they get some highly capable drivers out of the other end some of whom wouldn’t get past the barriers TOCs put in place.

Having worked in aviation for 30 years or more I know how the business works. You will never convince me that driving a train is more exacting than flying an airliner - and yet, as I said, the barriers to entry int that side or the rail industry are higher. This is one of the main reasons why drivers can demand exorbitant salaries and hold the country to ransom if they don’t get them.

 

[chris11256]

Only eight companies confirmed (needless to say all the ones round here are on the list). Are there any more to come out have the others voted against ?

c2c aren’t balloting as far as I’m aware.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Only eight companies confirmed (needless to say all the ones round here are on the list). Are there any more to come out have the others voted against ?

XC, Avanti and DRS ballots don't close until 27th

 

[westv]

Best go to the ASLEF website:

ASLEF Announces Strike Date | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced a day of strike action after train companies failed to make a pay offer to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living.

aslef.org.uk

I've asked this earlier but I'll ask again. Does this differ to the strikes already called on Hull Trains for 16/17/23/24 July or is it the same dispute? If it's the same why have HTs been "targetted" for additional disruption?

 

[NEDdrv]

Nonsense. You just apply, pass the tests, pass the training and you’re in. Worked for me. It’s competitive because unlike pilot training, TOCs cover the cost so only take on people they feel are good enough to pass the training.



I also have a PPL and have passed the ATPL theory exams. I can confirm those are a good bit harder than railway rules exams, but are sub GCSE level multiple choice exams. Nothing like A level let alone degree level study.



You’ve previously admitted you also don’t have a job flying (you said you’re some sort of airline roster clerk IIRC). This revelation certainly explains your evident resentment of train-crew. I’d be willing to bet money you’re also on PPRUNE, moaning about pilots’ pay and conditions!

The main obstacle to getting a commercial pilots license is money. Flight schools will put anyone with a pulse through the course, irrespective of suitability for employment, just so long as they stump up the cash. Only a few of those go on to get flying positions. It sounds like you might be in the former category yourself.




A rather silly question - fairly obviously a train driver is going to be rather more critical to railway passengers than a pilot, a pilot more critical to aviation passengers than a train driver.

Comparing the jobs is futile - although I’d observe that the training for both pilot and train driver takes about the same time and costs about the same, so pilots arguably make a better bench mark for train driver salaries than the usual bus drivers/van drivers who can be trained up in a matter of a few days.

It also doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that there will be many people capable of passing the aviation licenses who are unable to get into train driving, for whatever reason.



Since you’re clearly neither a pilot nor a train driver, I reckon your opinion on either role is pretty irrelevant!

Every point Spot On

 

[choochoochoo]

All wrong as far as my background is concerned. I am not and never have been “some sort of roster clerk”, and at the time when I could quite viably have gone on fly commercially I was earning far too much and enjoying a far better lifestyle doing other things to contemplate the lowly salaries then on offer to newly qualified airline pilots. I have no retrospective regrets in the decision I made, and I certainly don’t spend time on PPRuNe moaning about pilots.

I think, despite your claimed background, that you are deluded if you believe the main obstacle to earning a living from flying is a lack on money. In some cases money may be an impediment to getting all the way down that road, but sooner or later those with money but not capable of making the grade fall by the wayside. Nevertheless, if the railway used a similar model with commercial independent training available, I’d bet they get some highly capable drivers out of the other end some of whom wouldn’t get past the barriers TOCs put in place.

Having worked in aviation for 30 years or more I know how the business works. You will never convince me that driving a train is more exacting than flying an airliner - and yet, as I said, the barriers to entry int that side or the rail industry are higher. This is one of the main reasons why drivers can demand exorbitant salaries and hold the country to ransom if they don’t get them.

There’s two crew on most airliners. Makes the job a whole lot easier. You make a mistake hopefully your colleague will spot it.

I’d love to have a co-driver watching everything I did and picking up on any mistakes and keeping each other alert.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So we don't know yet if GTR are striking yet (i.e. TL, SN, GN) ?

 

[SA91]

Having worked in aviation for 30 years or more I know how the business works. You will never convince me that driving a train is more exacting than flying an airliner - and yet, as I said, the barriers to entry int that side or the rail industry are higher. This is one of the main reasons why drivers can demand exorbitant salaries and hold the country to ransom if they don’t get them.

What are those barriers to entry in the railway you speak of? Psychometric assessments?

 

[niggill617@gma]

Nonsense. You just apply, pass the tests, pass the training and you’re in. Worked for me. It’s competitive because unlike pilot training, TOCs cover the cost so only take on people they feel are good enough to pass the training.



I also have a PPL and have passed the ATPL theory exams. I can confirm those are a good bit harder than railway rules exams, but are sub GCSE level multiple choice exams. Nothing like A level let alone degree level study.



You’ve previously admitted you also don’t have a job flying (you said you’re some sort of airline roster clerk IIRC). This revelation certainly explains your evident resentment of train-crew. I’d be willing to bet money you’re also on PPRUNE, moaning about pilots’ pay and conditions!

The main obstacle to getting a commercial pilots license is money. Flight schools will put anyone with a pulse through the course, irrespective of suitability for employment, just so long as they stump up the cash. Only a few of those go on to get flying positions. It sounds like you might be in the former category yourself.




A rather silly question - fairly obviously a train driver is going to be rather more critical to railway passengers than a pilot, a pilot more critical to aviation passengers than a train driver.

Comparing the jobs is futile - although I’d observe that the training for both pilot and train driver takes about the same time and costs about the same, so pilots arguably make a better bench mark for train driver salaries than the usual bus drivers/van drivers who can be trained up in a matter of a few days.

It also doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that there will be many people capable of passing the aviation licenses who are unable to get into train driving, for whatever reason.



Since you’re clearly neither a pilot nor a train driver, I reckon your opinion on either role is pretty irrelevant!

There’s two crew on most airliners. Makes the job a whole lot easier. You make a mistake hopefully your colleague will spot it.

I’d love to have a co-driver watching everything I did and picking up on any mistakes and keeping each other alert.

If both crew members keep to a sterile cab. This was not necessarily the case with second men. The task of flight crew is more complex, 3 dimensions and no rails.

 

[Watershed]

They have the ability to have there voice heard .....it's called a ballot paper

Yet this deal was not put to a ballot. I know of a number RMT members who are not happy with this outright rejection, especially as they now face a further loss of pay as more strike dates are announced.

It's also worth noting that in a ballot for industrial action, submitting any vote (even a "no") helps get things over the line, thanks to the participation threshold.

 

[choochoochoo]

If both crew members keep to a sterile cab. This was not necessarily the case with second men. The task of flight crew is more complex, 3 dimensions and no rails.

The flight deck is only sterile below 10000 feet. Still would be nice to have someone else check my work and intervene if they think I’m about to do something stupid.

I don’t think monitoring a flight management system controlling the autopilot is that complex compared to maintaining concentration for 4-5 hours solid.

The jobs have different requirements even if there are transferable skills.

 

[KM1991]

So we don't know yet if GTR are striking yet (i.e. TL, SN, GN) ?

RMT members at GTR returned a yes vote to strike action.

 

[The_PlainTruth]

Where are you getting your information from ?
I haven’t seen any proposals. I have “heard” that Network Rail want to introduce new technology (spoiler alert : they already have, which have/ are reducing the number of signallers required. No strikes for that !)

Compulsory retirement at 67 is not something I would be prepared to strike over. If Network Rail want to potentially lose that experience, more fool them.

The one I’m really interested in knowing about is the self evidence proposals. This has been bubbling away for a number of years and I’ve heard recently something on this is being actively looked at. Would love to know the details and who this came from.

You need to consider this from the perspective of the next generation, surely, who will be buying houses with huge mortgages. How can this worker pay off this mortgage, raise a family and at the same time have paid in enough to a pension pot by 67? This shows the utter contempt that the ruling class has for the working class. Every last one of those working conditions that they are demanding to raid needs to be faced down and refused.

The RMT said it's the fight of our lives and it is. If they can dictate your retirement age, they dictate what choices you can make in life. It should be the workers choice not senior management. Strike, strike and strike again. United we win.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yet this deal was not put to a ballot. I know of a number RMT members who are not happy with this outright rejection, especially as they now face a further loss of pay as more strike dates are announced.

It's also worth noting that in a ballot for industrial action, submitting any vote (even a "no") helps get things over the line, thanks to the participation threshold.

I suppose the NEC weighed up how long it would take to run a referendum against the likelihood of a swift further improved offer. I guess they think the latter is probable.

 

[Kipperthecat]

You need to consider this from the perspective of the next generation, surely, who will be buying houses with huge mortgages. How can this worker pay off this mortgage, raise a family and at the same time have paid in enough to a pension pot by 67? This shows the utter contempt that the ruling class has for the working class. Every last one of those working conditions that they are demanding to raid needs to be faced down and refused.

The RMT said it's the fight of our lives and it is. If they can dictate your retirement age, they dictate what choices you can make in life. It should be the workers choice not senior management. Strike, strike and strike again. United we win.

They can do this by benefiting from the pay rise I am on strike for.

We ALL stand on the shoulders of giants

 

[Goldfish62]

XC, Avanti and DRS ballots don't close until 27th

Didn't realise DRS was being balloted.

Interesting because it's always been a nationalised company and also doesn't report to the DfT.

 

[whoosh]

Compulsory retirement at a given age is illegal in the UK.

Employer's Justified Retirement Age (EJRA) is when an employer can justify that retirement has to take place by a certain age.
At Cross Country ASLEF pushed for it, and Driver's voted on it, and in it came. At state retirement age you have to empty your locker and leave.

You need to consider this from the perspective of the next generation, surely, who will be buying houses with huge mortgages. How can this worker pay off this mortgage, raise a family and at the same time have paid in enough to a pension pot by 67? This shows the utter contempt that the ruling class has for the working class. Every last one of those working conditions that they are demanding to raid needs to be faced down and refused.

The RMT said it's the fight of our lives and it is. If they can dictate your retirement age, they dictate what choices you can make in life. It should be the workers choice not senior management. Strike, strike and strike again. United we win.

I mention ASLEF above, do we know if this is being pushed for by Network Rail or RMT?

The unions seem to have an idealistic view that you should retire "having had a good run" and make space for a youngster, when any older person can fall foul of all sorts of financial crises (themselves or other family members), or just want to carry on with the routine of going to work as they aren't ready to throw it in just yet.

It seems strange to me how a union will represent anyone, even someone who's rubbish at their job (which they should as they are a paying member), as a job to be protected, but then have this idea that at state retirement age it shouldn't be your job anymore but some youngster's. Which it often isn't - it could be someone older embarking on a second career.
Idealism....

In any event, I've seen more people retire early than late.

It might be Network Rail conceding to the union on this one maybe.

 

[Dunnideer]

Employer's Justified Retirement Age (EJRA) is when an employer can justify that retirement has to take place by a certain age.
At Cross Country ASLEF pushed for it, and Driver's voted on it, and in it came. At state retirement age you have to empty your locker and leave.

I mention ASLEF above, do we know if this is being pushed for by Network Rail or RMT?

It might be Network Rail conceding to the union on this one maybe.

It’s Network Rail (and, presumably, their paymasters at the DfT) who want it.

 

[Goldfish62]

Employer's Justified Retirement Age (EJRA) is when an employer can justify that retirement has to take place by a certain age.

So it works like the Working Time Directive in that an employer can't unilaterally impose exemption but it can be signed away by mutual consent?

 

[Randomer]

So it works like the Working Time Directive in that an employer can't unilaterally impose exemption but it can be signed away by mutual consent?

Short answer, no not really the same.

Technically the WTD can be individually opted out of but collective bargaining agreements can only exempt certain areas (the working time regs list them). Neither option can be imposed by the employer but some opt outs can be enforced by working to a union negotiated working agreement. I.e. everyone works to the agreement but only union members get a say on it.

Employers Justified Retirement Age can be enforced by the employer as long as it can be justified. Some unions may choose to support this to benefit the most members in order to allow promotions as people work for longer.

Going back on topic, I can see why enforced retirement at 67 might be objectionable to some people. However, going forward I'm not at all convinced a couple of years is a deal breaker for younger generations.

I'd also note I know people who have mortgages being paid by pensions. They found it better to put the maximum amount into buying an annuity and let the mortgage run for a few years.

 

[High Dyke]

Yet this deal was not put to a ballot. I know of a number RMT members who are not happy with this outright rejection, especially as they now face a further loss of pay as more strike dates are announced.

It's also worth noting that in a ballot for industrial action, submitting any vote (even a "no") helps get things over the line, thanks to the participation threshold.

I was in conversation earlier with a colleague. Back in 1994 maintenance staff didn't get called out in support of striking signallers, but now consider that signallers are being used as pawns in the fight for maintenance staff. The same person has been balloted by his union, but the 'action short of a strike' has raised the question about managers acting as contingency signallers. Part of this was down to people not actually voting, and counting towards the ballot threshold.

Many aspects of the offer to signallers aren't as bad as it seems. Others have already mentioned the retirement age proposal. I work with a couple of signallers who are in their 70's, who have no interest in retirement. I've always maintained I'd not retire; I've always been used to working most of my life. However, if the job sees me ten years it would be enough - even though I'd still be short of the current statutory retirement age.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We ALL stand on the shoulders of giants

What an unusual turn of phrase.

I cannot ever recall in participating in such gymnastics, even in my schooldays in the 1950s.

 

[Moonshot]

I do not work in maintenance... I am not referring to job losses in what I said.

Moving all engineering and inspection work to nights to stop people coming into contact with trains is not possible because you cannot view everything at night.

It obviously is .....because that's what the plan is. Increasingly I see junctions that actually have the ability to be lit up at night. Most inspections are actually carried out by Flying Banana trains, which don't actually care about day or night

 

[The_PlainTruth]

I was in conversation earlier with a colleague. Back in 1994 maintenance staff didn't get called out in support of striking signallers, but now consider that signallers are being used as pawns in the fight for maintenance staff. The same person has been balloted by his union, but the 'action short of a strike' has raised the question about managers acting as contingency signallers. Part of this was down to people not actually voting, and counting towards the ballot threshold.

Many aspects of the offer to signallers aren't as bad as it seems. Others have already mentioned the retirement age proposal. I work with a couple of signallers who are in their 70's, who have no interest in retirement. I've always maintained I'd not retire; I've always been used to working most of my life. However, if the job sees me ten years it would be enough - even though I'd still be short of the current statutory retirement age.

I would very much disagree and can also tell you that signallers in my area are extremely hostile to the raid on terms and conditions that are attached to the real-terms pay cut offer that was made. The end of rosters, the end of resident and relief signaller, the inclusion of Sunday in the working week, the requirement to demonstrate their own competencies, a defined working age ... none of this stuff has a hope of being acceptable or even justifiable to improving the industry. It won't improve signallers lives one iota - much the opposite.

The idea from Network Rail that the RMT should put this offer to the membership is for the birds - it would be a waste of everyones time. I'm expecting a Summer of strikes which will ramp up unless NR (and the DFT) stop trying to push impossible terms on its workforce.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would very much disagree and can also tell you that signallers in my area are extremely hostile to the raid on terms and conditions that are attached to the real-terms pay cut offer that was made. The end of rosters, the end of resident and relief signaller, the inclusion of Sunday in the working week, the requirement to demonstrate their own competencies, a defined working age ... none of this stuff has a hope of being acceptable or even justifiable to improving the industry. It won't improve signallers lives one iota - much the opposite.

Why not?

A lot of professions have a requirement for staff to demonstrate their own competencies. Take annual state registration/fitness to practice for example, such as in the healthcare profession

 

[KM1991]

Further strike action called for Thursday 18th August and Saturday 20th August.