Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Johnny Lewis]

I can't help thinking it's a pity that LNWR are no longer running an hourly London Euston - Birmingham - Liverpool service. At the moment, no-one can say that it couldn't run reliably, considering the utter shambles Avanti are providing at the moment.

Connecting a pseudo Inter-City service (Birmingham - Liverpool) to another pseudo Inter-City service (LNWR's London - Birmingham service) is no different to linking a London - Birmingham service to a Birmingham - Scotland service, for which Virgin received many plaudits, and I presume Avanti have no immediate plans to chop this at Birmingham once more. Personally I'd rather see a reliable LNWR service as being the second London - Liverpool service per hour, owing to the much-needed connectivity it would provide. But it seems to be absolutely dead in the water once more, and this is assuming that LNWR EVER get their new trains into passenger service!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Avanti are also running a reduced service. The difference between Avanti and other TOCs is most of the others are capable of running the reduced service, Avanti aren’t.

That’s because those others have the staff to cover the job - Avanti doesn’t, for the reasons that people here have previously explained.

 

[nlogax]

I'm surprised the media aren't making more of Avanti's woeful service. Plentry in the media when an airline, airport or Port of Dover falls over but I don't recall seeing anything about Avanti.

I'm not surprised. The media seems utterly preoccupied with what's going on in political circles and with fuel prices. There's precious little attracting attention with Avanti or other individual TOCs that isn't the threat of a nationwide strike. Even three or four years ago that would have been very different but we are where we are.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That’s because those others have the staff to cover the job - Avanti doesn’t, for the reasons that people here have previously explained.

The reason is because it is run abysmally. You say TOCs that can run a reliable service only do so because they are running reduced frequencies. So are Avanti. It's strange how when some TOCs perform abysmally it is due to external factors when those external factors also apply to TOCs that are run competently and manage to operate a service.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I can't help thinking it's a pity that LNWR are no longer running an hourly London Euston - Birmingham - Liverpool service. At the moment, no-one can say that it couldn't run reliably, considering the utter shambles Avanti are providing at the moment.

Connecting a pseudo Inter-City service (Birmingham - Liverpool) to another pseudo Inter-City service (LNWR's London - Birmingham service) is no different to linking a London - Birmingham service to a Birmingham - Scotland service, for which Virgin received many plaudits, and I presume Avanti have no immediate plans to chop this at Birmingham once more. Personally I'd rather see a reliable LNWR service as being the second London - Liverpool service per hour, owing to the much-needed connectivity it would provide. But it seems to be absolutely dead in the water once more, and this is assuming that LNWR EVER get their new trains into passenger service!

This service has been mentioned in internal emails, there is definitely appetite for it and staffing levels could handle a EUS-LIV service but it would be as an extension to the current EUS-CRE and not run via BHM due to Crewe depot not signing RUG-BHM (and unions not wanting that filling in).

Currently I think timings and platforms at BHM work well for switching services as both services arrive roughly the same time on adjacent platforms (4&5) yesterday from what I remember. Also, these services are already very busy!

 

[317 forever]

I had booked a night in Milton Keynes for next Friday to have a day in Birmingham on Friday to see the extra buses for the Commonwealth Games on Friday then a north London bus tour on Saturday.

With the LNWR strike next Saturday and potentially still Avanti cancellations I am thankful that I reconsidered. I had my London day on the Jubilee Saturday and will go to Birmingham next Saturday. While Birmingham will not be perfect with the lack of LNWR trains, it would have been anyone's guess what time I'd have reached Euston. Plus my LNWR Advance may well not have been valid on the Avanti service either.

Not that June 4th was perfect in the end. To be fair, my 6.19 from Stockport did turn up and was fine. However, I was booked on the 18.20 home but this and the 18.40 were cancelled. Perhaps unwisely, I asked at the barrier whether I could use my Advance on the 18.07 Liverpool service and change at Crewe. He did allow me on. However, at Crewe the cancellation of a Northern service and heavy delay to a TfW service meant I had to wait just over an hour there. I reached Stockport at 21.21 so 65 minutes late.

On my Delay Repay application I shared what happened. I can only suppose the 19.00 to Stockport did run, and on time at that. They only repaid me 50% not 100%. They did not take any notice of the error by the barrier staff at Euston for allowing me on the 18.07, or even add the courtesy of sharing the reasoning behind paying just 50% either.

 

[Birmingham]

On my Delay Repay application I shared what happened. I can only suppose the 19.00 to Stockport did run, and on time at that. They only repaid me 50% not 100%. They did not take any notice of the error by the barrier staff at Euston for allowing me on the 18.07, or even add the courtesy of sharing the reasoning behind paying just 50% either.

Appeal it

 

[gazzaa2]

I'm going to the Lakes this weekend by car because of this shambles. As I'd be going walk-up, that's £106.60 in the bin for Avanti and in the diesel tank for me, and possibly a SP upgrade too.

Probably the right call:

 

[Agent_Squash]

Probably the right call:


View attachment 118087

At this point Northern could go hourly on Windermere - Preston (if they had the stock, of course) and they’d make an absolute ORCATS fortune!

 

[philosopher]

I'm surprised the media aren't making more of Avanti's woeful service. Plentry in the media when an airline, airport or Port of Dover falls over but I don't recall seeing anything about Avanti.

During the Thameslink shambles of 2018 their management were summonsed to the House of Commons Transport Select Committee. Could do with Avanti's top brass being summonsed and going 'on the record'.

The lack of media attention in way does seem a bit odd. I know half the population do not use trains in a given year. However I think it also the case the half the population do not fly and I suspect considerably less than half of the population pass through the Port of Dover. Those that do fly are use a ferry are probably only go to do once or twice a year. Those using Avanti’s services may well be using it several times a year.

Perhaps train disruption is a boring topic for media executives, or perhaps that it is seen as so common now that it is no longer seen as newsworthy.

 

[Falcon1200]

Today's Avanti performance on the Glasgow Central/Euston route:

1M21 0426 starts Preston
1M06 0530 ran, buts started 33 minutes late, currently 40 late approaching Wigan
1M07 0630 cancelled
1M08 0730 cancelled
1M09 0830 running, but not departed yet (as at 0845), ECS to form arrived at 0826
1M10 0930 starts Preston
1M11 1040 not shown cancelled but has no stock allocated, so who knows ?

Regardless of the reasons behind Avanti's problems, this level of consecutive cancellations on a long distance route with minimal rail alternative is utterly unacceptable, it looks as if they have simply given up trying to run any pretence of a reliable service.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The reason is because it is run abysmally. You say TOCs that can run a reliable service only do so because they are running reduced frequencies. So are Avanti. It's strange how when some TOCs perform abysmally it is due to external factors when those external factors also apply to TOCs that are run competently and manage to operate a service.

It all depends, largely, on how much in the way of resources you had pre-COVID, how many you have managed to train in the interim, how your route and traction knowledge works, what your rest day working position is, and then you have the DfT factor.

If you started from a decent base of active staff and hadn’t over-optimised your train crew diagrams (so they are not too tight), you are in a better place to weather the storm. But some depots in several TOCs are now so tight for staff, it only takes a few to go on the sick or retire and it all starts to fall down.

Where the DfT come in is not only deciding your level of service but also giving you the money to ease out your diagramming so you haven’t got staff wearing themselves out trying to keep the service running. At the moment they are quite reluctant to authorise additional staff resources or training.

 

[D1537]

Today's Avanti performance on the Glasgow Central/Euston route:

1M21 0426 starts Preston
1M06 0530 ran, buts started 33 minutes late, currently 40 late approaching Wigan
1M07 0630 cancelled
1M08 0730 cancelled
1M09 0830 running, but not departed yet (as at 0845), ECS to form arrived at 0826
1M10 0930 starts Preston
1M11 1040 not shown cancelled but has no stock allocated, so who knows ?

Regardless of the reasons behind Avanti's problems, this level of consecutive cancellations on a long distance route with minimal rail alternative is utterly unacceptable, it looks as if they have simply given up trying to run any pretence of a reliable service.

The 1040 is also cancelled.

Even on a skeleton service, that's 20+ Avanti cancellations today.

 

[Falcon1200]

The 1040 is also cancelled.

Even on a skeleton service, that's 20+ Avanti cancellations today.

Thanks, what a dreadful service. I do feel sorry for the Avanti staff who have to deal with the very unhappy passengers.

(1M09 eventually departed 29 minutes late).

 

[StevenF]

Over the past couple of months I’ve been noticing, as well as being caught out by, increasingly frequent cancellations of Avanti services. Most of them seem to be due to ‘a shortage of train drivers’.

The cancellations most commonly occur on the Manchester route, as well as some services starting and terminating at Preston. This is most common at the weekend it seems.

So does anyone know why there is a driver shortage? Is there a delay in training due to high sickness/drivers off due to sickness, or is there a disagreement on T&C’s/contracts?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

AWC as an entity are not fit for purpose. The Government may be unwilling to cancel their National Rail Contract but if they (Government) are intermeddling and tweaking things like payments to AWC they could do it more effectively.
The need to spend unnecessary money on the rolling stock refurbishment to create the extra Standard Premium seating was waste.AWC recently announced loyalty scheme is a non starter for the extent of what you have to purchase to get anything back.These are examples of what they should not have been allowed to do.
.The Government should just ensure that they perform the core task of supplying an effective rail service for those towns and cities connected to the WCML.
However, the ECML, in direct Government's "operator of last resort " control , has it's problems too.It does not seem as bad as the WCML set up.

 

[peter166]

Despite a drastically reduced timetable being published for today on the Avanti website (only 1 tph to Birmingham and 2 tph to Manchester) there are still 20 cancellations showing on Journeycheck and many other trains starting/terminating short often at Preston.
The Glasgow - Euston (=and return) service is decimated.
Why print a revised timetable when clearly the resources are not available to in any way provide a reliable service even for that?
The whole situation with Avanti is beyond believe and something drastic needs to be done quickly. I am amazed that this hasnt been taken up by the press like the airport or Dover crises when as many if not more people are disrupted by Avanti on a weekly basis

 

[172101]

The 1040 is also cancelled.

Even on a skeleton service, that's 20+ Avanti cancellations today.

And to complete the list for today as it stands now!

1M12 OK
1M13 OK
1M14 Cape
1M15 OK
1M16 Runs GLC-PRE only
1M17 Cape
1M18 Runs GLC-PRE only
9M19 OK

All from EDB both 9M50 & 9M52 Cape

Thats only 6 departures from GLC today and only 5 going all the way to EUS
Also 1M06 & 1M09 were both full and standing leaving GLC so not a lot of hope for many wanting to board onroute!

 

[GordonT]

Despite a drastically reduced timetable being published for today on the Avanti website (only 1 tph to Birmingham and 2 tph to Manchester) there are still 20 cancellations showing on Journeycheck and many other trains starting/terminating short often at Preston.
The Glasgow - Euston (=and return) service is decimated.
Why print a revised timetable when clearly the resources are not available to in any way provide a reliable service even for that?
The whole situation with Avanti is beyond believe and something drastic needs to be done quickly. I am amazed that this hasnt been taken up by the press like the airport or Dover crises when as many if not more people are disrupted by Avanti on a weekly basis

When the WCML franchise was eventually passed to FirstGroup was it not inevitable that they would be out of their depth regardless of who they teamed up with?

 

[D1537]

I hope there's no-one at Rugby standing there with a VT-only ticket to Euston. The 1104 is cancelled and there isn't another VT service until - unbelievably - 1428.

Edit: Actually, 1444, because the 1428 is cancelled as well.

 

[Clarence Yard]

This is all reminiscent of other TOCs when they had insufficient staff for weekend services and would bin off the services on the day, rather than cancel beforehand.

That is my major criticism. Over optimistic rostering. In summer if you are likely to be short two to three weeks out, you probably will be on the day so cancel the trains well before the day, not on the day itself. If that means you have spare train crew staff, well that helps you manage the on the day shortages.

In terms of the long distance TOCs, GWR and LNER have enough staff to deliver the current service, Cross Country and East Midlands are almost in the same position but Avanti and TPE haven’t enough staff and what makes those two even worse is their tight diagramming and, in the case of TPE, tight route knowledge. So when it goes wrong, it really goes wrong! Staff also get worn down quicker if they are racing around.

GWR were in exactly the same position as Avanti until they could recruit enough staff (the DfT authorised a huge increase in drivers there) and, irrespective of who is in charge of the TOC, until Avanti get into the position of having enough productive staff, it is going to be grim.

Personally I would abandon this DfT inspired quest for the ultimate in train crew efficiency (they go through your diagrams before or even after award to try and reduce the numbers) which FG has been rather too good at and go back to what happened in a couple of previous franchise competitions where a minimum number of train crew, by grade, had to employed at any one time.

 

[Birmingham]

I hope there's no-one at Rugby standing there with a VT-only ticket to Euston. The 1104 is cancelled and there isn't another VT service until - unbelievably - 1428.

Edit: Actually, 1444, because the 1428 is cancelled as well.

To be honest you’d be silly to purchase a VT-only ticket (Advance, as the only walk-up tickets are Any Permitted and WMT only) from Rugby to London. The WMT only walk-up return is great value, particularly on the one train per hour that calls only MKC en-route.

 

[Efini92]

In terms of the long distance TOCs, GWR and LNER have enough staff to deliver the current service, Cross Country and East Midlands are almost in the same position but Avanti and TPE haven’t enough staff and what makes those two even worse is their tight diagramming and, in the case of TPE, tight route knowledge. So when it goes wrong, it really goes wrong! Staff also get worn down quicker if they are racing around.

Are you referring to Avanti TM’s when you say tight diagramming?

 

[D1537]

To be honest you’d be silly to purchase a VT-only ticket (Advance, as the only walk-up tickets are Any Permitted and WMT only) from Rugby to London. The WMT only walk-up return is great value, particularly on the one train per hour that calls only MKC en-route.

Oh, I know, but it's a nonsensical "service". The bigger issue, actually, is that if anyone's got a VT ticket from the North to Rugby, you have to go via Brum, and there's a 3 hour gap in the service even if the 1104 and 1428 hadn't been cancelled.

On the other hand, I suppose you could buy a WMT single from Crewe to Rugby and then Delay Repay the whole of your VT journey for a 3 hour delay...

 

[peter166]

That is my major criticism. Over optimistic rostering. In summer if you are likely to be short two to three weeks out, you probably will be on the day so cancel the trains well before the day, not on the day itself. If that means you have spare train

Isn't this obvious & clearly common sense so why isn't Avanti doing this?
They are currently showing on their website revised timetables on a daily basis for the next week or so but on past experience (including today) they will turn out to be conmplete fiction & nobody can plan a journey with any certainty whatsoever.

 

[Skiddaw]

It was pretty chaotic at Penrith and Carlisle yesterday (I popped into Carlisle from Penrith to do a bit of shopping). I caught one of the few Glasgow trains actually running so made it to Carlisle but the fatality between Preston and Lancaster plus the plethora of cancellations made it well nigh impossible to get back again. I bailed out and caught the bus. I know they're not responsible for the fatlities and the staff are generally lovely but really the service is becoming so flaky that it's best not to bother with it. Such a shame.

 

[Watershed]

I hope there's no-one at Rugby standing there with a VT-only ticket to Euston. The 1104 is cancelled and there isn't another VT service until - unbelievably - 1428.

Edit: Actually, 1444, because the 1428 is cancelled as well.

They would be entitled to be re-routed onto the next LNR service.

 

[Wolfie]

Notably, both the current poor (appalling) performers - TPE and Avanti - are run by the same owning group. “Transforming travel” apparently.

They are.... Just not in any desirable way....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

They would be entitled to be re-routed onto the next LNR service.

Based on my own experience at Rugby ticket acceptance either way is pretty much non-existant despite what the rules say....

 

[duncanp]

They really are a joke, as indicated by the extract below:-

17:23 London Euston to Preston due 20:51 will be reinstated.
It will be terminated at Crewe.
It will no longer call at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

So the train from London to Preston is "reinstated", and then terminated at, er, Crewe.

How can a train be described as from London to Preston, when it only runs from London to Crewe.

Another almighty **** up from Avanti.

Due to the Commonwealth Games, there will be two trains per hour to Birmingham over the next two weekends, and only one train per hour to Manchester.

So when if there are any staff shortages, services to Manchester, Liverpool, Crewe, Preston and Glasgow will be first in the firing line.

 

[Howardh]

On the departure board at Manchester Piccadilly (photo attached)

Would the bus - presumably a coach - have toilet facilities on board, and would they be open? Or at least stop at services a couple of times? On local bustitutions I've never been on a coach that has its toilet door unlocked.

 

[Falcon1200]

And to complete the list for today as it stands now!

1M12 OK
1M13 OK
1M14 Cape
1M15 OK
1M16 Runs GLC-PRE only
1M17 Cape
1M18 Runs GLC-PRE only
9M19 OK

All from EDB both 9M50 & 9M52 Cape

Thats only 6 departures from GLC today and only 5 going all the way to EUS
Also 1M06 & 1M09 were both full and standing leaving GLC so not a lot of hope for many wanting to board onroute!

Due to the termination of its normal inward working, 1S37, at Preston (and it only started from Crewe !), 1M12 is today formed by an empty set off, presumably, Polmadie, which has just arrived in Central, so a 40 minute start (minimum) for this one too. Which means that of the 8 Euston services booked to depart Glasgow Central before 1200, only 3 have run, and each of those was at least 30 minutes late. Utterly shambolic.