Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Jamesrob637]

Stockport is showing virtually no trains on the 27th. Hope it's just a glitch and it will be open albeit limited service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Stockport is showing virtually no trains on the 27th. Hope it's just a glitch and it will be open albeit limited service.

it will be none. There were none in the last RMT strike and they’ll be none for this one. Too many signal boxes to staff up.

 

[Bantamzen]

BA check in staff just been offered what amounts to 13% A benchmark there I would suggest.

It really isn't. If you think that this is a realistic figure to chase after you are kidding yourself a lot.

 

[Vespa]

it will be none. There were none in the last RMT strike and they’ll be none for this one. Too many signal boxes to staff up.

During the last strike they managed to run a core service with fringes being cut off, I was lucky to get to Liverpool as there is a service running from Euston, it missed out a few stops leaving only three being Stafford, Crewe Liverpool and bypassed Runcorn going via Earlstown junction.

I was caught out literally by the strike, next time I'll plan more and will drive if necessary.

***********
Latest news is 8% no compulsory redundancies etc and RMT still walked away from that offer.

 

[yorksrob]

8% with no compulsory redundancies sounds like a good offer to me.

 

[dk1]

8% with no compulsory redundancies sounds like a good offer to me.

There’s got to be more to it.

 

[yorksrob]

There’s got to be more to it.

Yes, if they're proposing that people work twice the hours, that's not so good !

 

[Vespa]

There’s got to be more to it.

A thought crossed my mind whether the strike is intended to be a political one.

 

[greyman42]

A thought crossed my mind whether the strike is intended to be a political one.

What have BA got to do with the government?

 

[Vespa]

What have BA got to do with the government?

Never said anything about BA

 

[Snow1964]

Latest news is 8% no compulsory redundancies etc and RMT still walked away from that offer.

So they asked for no compulsory redundancies, if this offer is correct, have got that, and now they are walking away from that too

So what exactly are they hoping to achieve, something like 10% with compulsory redundancies maybe

I am baffled, especially as 8% is good (yes I know headline inflation is higher, but that includes energy increase which government is contributing to rebating, so have to take that part out)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Latest from the RMT:


22 July 2022





Dear colleague



DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES



I received correspondence from the Rail Delivery Group today after a series of meetings held over recent weeks between your union and the body which represents the train operating companies in the current national dispute.



The correspondence and a report from the negotiations have been subject to a decision by your union's National Executive Committee, which has stated the following:



“That we note today's correspondence from the RDG/Train Operators and the summary it provides on the on-going discussions.



The General Secretary is instructed to respond to the RDG/TOCs as follows:



· That we note their summary of issues that the companies wish to discuss and develop which are not agreed by RMT.



· The companies are to be informed that we will never agree to the closure of ticket offices nor to the extension of DOO/DCO.



· That the undertaking on job security is not meaningful and does not provide a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies in the context of the full package of measures being negotiated.



· That there is no improved offer on pay and that this dispute cannot be settled until we have an appropriate settlement on all the elements.



· That this Union remains available for further meaningful negotiation.



· We confirm that the strike action remains in place.



Further, the General Secretary is to advise our members of the latest position in regard to the Train Operating Companies, that the current proposals are not acceptable in order to resolve the dispute and that all notified industrial action remains in place.



The offer from Train Operating Companies amounts to a proposal for pay cuts and the ransacking of the rail industry with wholesale loss of jobs and the smashing of hard-won conditions.



The NEC will now consider further strike dates in order to escalate our defence of jobs, pay, pensions and conditions and the General Secretary is instructed to discuss the potential for coordinating our action with other trade unions in dispute or entering dispute at this time.



Finally, we congratulate our members on their steadfast resolve in the current dispute, we call on them to again fully to support the planned industrial action in support of an appropriate negotiated settlement to the issues we face.”



You and your colleagues have shown a tremendous unity and determination in your fight for justice on your pay and conditions and I have no doubt whatsoever that this will be highlighted again when you take action next Wednesday, 27th July 2022.



Yours sincerely,



Michael Lynch

 

[greyman42]

Never said anything about BA

Apologies. I thought you were referring to the BA offer.
The strike could well be political.

 

[Goldfish62]

Latest from the RMT:


22 July 2022





Dear colleague



DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES



I received correspondence from the Rail Delivery Group today after a series of meetings held over recent weeks between your union and the body which represents the train operating companies in the current national dispute.



The correspondence and a report from the negotiations have been subject to a decision by your union's National Executive Committee, which has stated the following:



“That we note today's correspondence from the RDG/Train Operators and the summary it provides on the on-going discussions.



The General Secretary is instructed to respond to the RDG/TOCs as follows:



· That we note their summary of issues that the companies wish to discuss and develop which are not agreed by RMT.



· The companies are to be informed that we will never agree to the closure of ticket offices nor to the extension of DOO/DCO.



· That the undertaking on job security is not meaningful and does not provide a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies in the context of the full package of measures being negotiated.



· That there is no improved offer on pay and that this dispute cannot be settled until we have an appropriate settlement on all the elements.



· That this Union remains available for further meaningful negotiation.



· We confirm that the strike action remains in place.



Further, the General Secretary is to advise our members of the latest position in regard to the Train Operating Companies, that the current proposals are not acceptable in order to resolve the dispute and that all notified industrial action remains in place.



The offer from Train Operating Companies amounts to a proposal for pay cuts and the ransacking of the rail industry with wholesale loss of jobs and the smashing of hard-won conditions.



The NEC will now consider further strike dates in order to escalate our defence of jobs, pay, pensions and conditions and the General Secretary is instructed to discuss the potential for coordinating our action with other trade unions in dispute or entering dispute at this time.



Finally, we congratulate our members on their steadfast resolve in the current dispute, we call on them to again fully to support the planned industrial action in support of an appropriate negotiated settlement to the issues we face.”



You and your colleagues have shown a tremendous unity and determination in your fight for justice on your pay and conditions and I have no doubt whatsoever that this will be highlighted again when you take action next Wednesday, 27th July 2022.



Yours sincerely,



Michael Lynch

That's fine, but are they going to let their members know what was actually offered?

 

[StevenF]

It is all very well discussing the nuts and bolts of employment law regarding strikes ( notice, have ballots complied with , how and when the respect unions might strike).
The fact is the strikes need settling as soon as possible.
There are many issues that need attention ( de arbonisation, the legislation for GBR, how the GBR Transition team are considering and what issues eg the fares issues, open access,the interaction of the Wales and Scotland devolved rails etc,etc,etc).
All these things are held back by the strikes.
The rail Unions act in their own interests not the public.One of the failures of the rail industry and the Government is replying to and countering these union mistruths and outright "victorian" dogma.The Government and the rail industry are the custodians of the rail system on behalf of the public and speak more loadly, timely and robustly.
Covid has changed everything. Ultimately the public purse is not finite and lots of things have a call on taxpayers money.There are those in Government and in the publics ranks who do not want trains. Electric cars may be easier to tax.
The rail unions may be doing the job, in the longer term, of being the unwise instruments of those who see a very much less role for our raiways

 

[Snow1964]

That's fine, but are they going to let their members know what was actually offered?

The letter should also be very worrying for the members, because they have said settlement to all elements of the negotiations

That there is no improved offer on pay and that this dispute cannot be settled until we have an appropriate settlement on all the elements.

If I was a member and 9 out of 10 things had improved, I would be narked at continuing to lose money by striking, because there was one outstanding item not settled, and therefore the union wants to continue the dispute.

 

[JonathanH]

That's fine, but are they going to let their members know what was actually offered?

Do they need to? Reading that message, until the DOO/DCO and ticket office closures are off the agenda, the pay figure is of almost no consequence.

 

[ComUtoR]

If I was a member and 9 out of 10 things had improved, I would be narked at continuing to lose money by striking, because there was one outstanding item not settled, and therefore the union wants to continue the dispute.

What if that 1 clause was the one that affected you the most ?

 

[Fokx]

If I was a member and 9 out of 10 things had improved, I would be narked at continuing to lose money by striking, because there was one outstanding item not settled, and therefore the union wants to continue the dispute.

Presumably you don’t work on the railway as that’s not how this strike is currently being played out.

We (RMT) all voted together, we all took collective action together, we’re all suffering the losses together and we all continue take industrial action because we’re stronger as a collective bargaining unit.

Industrial action isn’t going to stop until the collective demands/conditions are met, so if Network Rail’s demands are met, action will still take place until the TOC and Station staff conditions are also met. I certainly wouldn’t be stabbing my railway colleagues in the back to save my own skin.

You can already see that the DfT have increased their proposed pay award and gone back to no compulsory redundancies. Now there’s DCO/DOO, Maintenance staff numbers and job roles, station staffing/ticket offices, and the fact the DfT are proposing every single member of the railway works more hours for less pay.

There’s no point accepting an 8% pay offer if the DfT are proposing ridiculous conditions such as extending the working week to increase by 20% (35 to 42 hrs) with no increase in overall salary.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do they need to? Reading that message, until the DOO/DCO and ticket office closures are off the agenda, the pay figure is of almost no consequence.

Why do they need to? Because members pay them for a service. In return they should offer full transparency of what has been proposed to stop rumours circulating.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Just to clarify, that RMT email was regarding RDG/TOC negotiations and no change to the original offer. The 8% being banded about is the NR offer and they still want to plough through all the changes to working conditions.

Yes they have agreed to no compulsory redundancies, but that is just 1 of the changes that RMT members want.
Should it have gone to a vote? Maybe, but I understand the reason why it didn't.

Should TOCs offer 8%, it would be highly likely to go through unless DCO/DOO is included. (Unless it's similar to ScotRail with the wording being 'to have discussions within x years)

 

[carriageline]

Also, the offer isn’t 8%. Not immediately at least. Not sure how much we can share..

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Also, the offer isn’t 8%. Not immediately at least. Not sure how much we can share..

I'm not sure why info isn't being put into the public domain really. I feel an agreement must be close

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not sure why info isn't being put into the public domain really. I feel an agreement must be close

I thought the Network Rail offer was in the public domain. The media were reporting a week or so ago it is 4% this year, 2% next year and a further 2% based on efficiency savings.

 

[43066]

It really isn't. If you think that this is a realistic figure to chase after you are kidding yourself a lot.

It’s a negotiation like any other. The idea is by aiming high and working down you’ll end up with more in the end. The union certainly shouldn’t start by negotiating against itself by discounting 10% (or whatever) as “unrealistic”.

To be honest I think the hard line in the sand over ticket office closures is surprising. Surely better to get a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies so ensuring staff affected by closures are either redeployed or offered voluntary redundancy for those who wish to change industry, retire etc.

8% with no compulsory redundancies sounds like a good offer to me.

It depends on what else is bundled in.

The rail Unions act in their own interests not the public.

Quite rightly so. The fact that apparently surprises you indicates that you have a poor understanding what trade unions are and the role they perform.

One of the failures of the rail industry and the Government is replying to and countering these union mistruths and outright "victorian" dogma

Which “union mistruths” and “outright Victorian dogma” would that be? Can you give some examples? Do you believe the government always speaks the truth? If so, more fool you.

If only the government had allowed NR and the TOCs to negotiate with the unions without publicly washing its hands of the process, but preventing negotiations behind the scenes, the current IA could have been avoided.

 

[HSTEd]

So, as an outsider, it appears the siituation is that the strikes did not achieve the RMT's objectives and the government's line has in fact hardened?

Not really surprised.

 

[43066]

So, as an outsider, it appears the siituation is that the strikes did not achieve the RMT's objectives and the government's line has in fact hardened?

Not really surprised.

Not really? The process hasn’t finished yet. Note the amount offered is steadily increasing and there is clearly movement towards an agreement.

I don’t think people on here understand what negotiations are.

 

[Fokx]

So, as an outsider, it appears the siituation is that the strikes did not achieve the RMT's objectives and the government's line has in fact hardened?

Not really surprised.

Quite the opposite

We’ve gone from 0% to 2+1% to a rumoured 8%, travel facilities for network rail and no compulsory redundancies

 

[HSTEd]

Quite the opposite

We’ve gone from 0% to 2+1% to a rumoured 8%, travel facilities for network rail and no compulsory redundancies

And, the union claims, Driver Only operation? That wasn't in the dispute at the start was it?

 

[Bantamzen]

Do they need to? Reading that message, until the DOO/DCO and ticket office closures are off the agenda, the pay figure is of almost no consequence.

Erm yes, it would help members understand where the situation is. Because sometimes union officials, especially those around the top table can get things wrong. If your union cannot be transparent, then there is a problem quite frankly.

It’s a negotiation like any other. The idea is by aiming high and working down you’ll end up with more in the end. The union certainly shouldn’t start by negotiating against itself by discounting 10% (or whatever) as “unrealistic”.

It is indeed a negotiation, however aiming high doesn't always mean you will end up with somewhere between the union high & the employer's mandate. Especially when the pay deal is under the public spotlight.

To be honest I think the hard line in the sand over ticket office closures is surprising. Surely better to get a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies so ensuring staff affected by closures are either redeployed or offered voluntary redundancy for those who wish to change industry, retire etc.

If as speculated above the RMT have walked away from a deal that includes no compulsory redundancies, then that is a massive, massive mistake. At the very least they should be taking the deal back to the membership to vote on. If any of this speculation is true, they are literally handing the government a huge stick to beat them with.