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Showing ID to get on a plane (domestic flight) - not asked for

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gswindale

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What's appalling about that? Sounds like a trivial inconvenience from your description of what happened.
It is apparently quite a common occurance according to both the staff at the boarding gate and also the member of UK Border Force who had to come from who knows where to sort things out.

It also caused our flight to eventually depart 30 minutes late, which if UK Border Force/Heathrow Airport were more pro-active in looking out for families prior to security could have been avoided.

Fortunately our little one was quite happy just being in the airport that he didn't mind too much that he couldn't get on the plane with everybody else, but I guess in some cases a 2 year old being held back from boarding could throw a mighty tantrum which may/may not be over by the time you get to board.

Jersey - much better as a manual scan of passport photos at security and that was it as far as I remember - much more civilised.

Don't also get me started on the "little hitler" who when I was removing tablets from our hand luggage to go through the scanners shouted at me to "do not stack them" as I had got them out of the back in one go and was in the process of getting another tray to put them in.

A little bit of human politeness makes the experience for passengers that much nicer and Heathrow/UK Border Force seems to have forgotten this with the rush to automation and maximise profits etc.

We've got to go through it all again at the beginning of September, where hopefully when we get to Inverness, the Scottish staff will be a bit more "human" than those at Heathrow.
 
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zero

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The "biometrics", i.e. the cameras at the entrance to security, are only found at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, and are only used for CTA flights.

In for example the Schengen area, international airports have "inside Schengen" and "outside Schengen" zones, and one goes through passport control to pass between these zones. However the UK does not have this distinction because there are no physical exit migration inspections. The airside departure zones of most UK airports are defined as "inside the UK" because the only way to access them when arriving from outside the CTA, is to pass through immigration.

However, at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, international airside transit is possible. Passengers may arrive on a non-CTA flight and transit to a non-CTA flight without having any UK physical immigration checks. (Airlines may perform checks for the purposes of ensuring the passenger is the real ticket holder, and to ensure the passenger may enter the destination.) These passengers are "outside the UK" during their transit. But they freely mingle with passengers who are "inside the UK" - including those about to take domestic flights.

Were there no "biometrics", a domestic passenger "inside the UK" could swap boarding passes with a passenger "outside the UK". As no ID is required for domestic flights, the wrong passenger could board the domestic flight and enter the UK without passing through immigration. The actual domestic passenger could then leave the airport (by passing through immigration).

It is a complex system and really only required because these airports want domestic passengers to be able to shop at the full range of airport outlets.



Regarding showing ID for domestic flights. I have never been asked for ID by BA, although ID (not necessarily photo ID) is needed to check luggage. A driving licence is sufficient for the other domestic airlines. Ryanair previously only accepted passports for all flights, I believe because they just wanted to avoid arguing with people over what should be accepted and saying "passport only" is very clear and simple. I have never flown Ryanair and do not ever intend to fly them.


Regarding the CTA. I have never found a clear answer as to whether it applies to all British and Irish citizens, or only those who were citizens from birth, or only those who were born in the UK or Ireland or the other CTA islands. In my view, Ireland does not follow the spirit of the CTA by forcing arrivals from the UK into Dublin Airport to pass through immigration.


Regarding "visa waivers". Currently no such thing is required for British citizens visiting the EU or for EU citizens visiting the UK. ETIAS is therefore an impediment to travel. It has been reported that people eligible for ETIAS will be able to use e-gates in Schengen, which may reduce immigration queues. Nonetheless, despite being called a "visa waiver", they are visas in practice because they involve hassle and require travellers to request approval before travelling. Of course, they are easier than a traditional full visa application.

It is a common misconception that the US was the first country to introduce this. Australia introduced their ETA in 1994, long before the US introduced it in 2009. Australia calls these electronic authorisations visas, the US calls them visa-waivers, but they are the same thing. Some countries require "visas on arrival" but you do not have to do anything else except pay when you arrive there; these are not really visas.

There was some talk above about the UK introducing such a system for EU citizens. I have not heard of any plans to introduce this generally, so if someone has a source I would appreciate it.

The UK already has a visa-waiver system for citizens of some Middle Eastern countries. Previously, those citizens needed to apply for visas by going to a UK embassy and submitting a lot of personal information months before travel, so this visa waiver is a reduction of travel impediments. Introducing this system for people who currently do not need to do anything when travelling to the UK would be an increase in impediments to travel.
 

XAM2175

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Regarding the CTA. I have never found a clear answer as to whether it applies to all British and Irish citizens, or only those who were citizens from birth, or only those who were born in the UK or Ireland or the other CTA islands. In my view, Ireland does not follow the spirit of the CTA by forcing arrivals from the UK into Dublin Airport to pass through immigration.
I would read it as being fairly clear in that applies to all citizens of the two countries, and I'm not quite sure as to how you'd come up with a different interpretation?

With regards to arrival in Ireland, there is a technical differentiation in that CTA citizens are simply required to prove their nationality rather than submit to full immigration clearance procedures. It does seem a little bit pointless given that it's so easily evaded by travelling via NI, but legally it's no different to how EU citizens entitled to freedom of movement to and from the UK still had to prove that fact to immigration officers at the UK border.
 

Cloud Strife

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I think this depends on quite what you mean by freedom of movement. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons has a summary where you can see that the freedoms had been gradually extended and lots of it only dates from Maastricht.
The freedom in the Treaty of Rome relates to 'workers'. So if Brian from Sunderland has a job offer in Berlin he's good to go, otherwise it's whatever restrictions that country has on living there.

Yes, although in practice, it allowed for citizens (but not family members of citizens!) to move freely. There were no real records kept of who was crossing the border, and as there was already freedom of movement for workers, in practice, it worked exactly in the same way as it does today.

The "biometrics", i.e. the cameras at the entrance to security, are only found at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, and are only used for CTA flights.

In for example the Schengen area, international airports have "inside Schengen" and "outside Schengen" zones, and one goes through passport control to pass between these zones. However the UK does not have this distinction because there are no physical exit migration inspections. The airside departure zones of most UK airports are defined as "inside the UK" because the only way to access them when arriving from outside the CTA, is to pass through immigration.

Yes, I've recently been in transit from Poland to Malaga through Zurich, and the airside hotel was located in the non-Schengen area. It was an interesting experience being 'locked out' of Schengen at 11pm, as Swiss passport control was shut between 11pm-4:30am. The non-Schengen side is really barren in comparison, and after exploring the whole non-Schengen side of the airport, you could see that it wasn't intended for anyone to spend any length of time there.

I don't think it's still the case, but Aberdeen Airport for instance used to have UK baggage reclaim located in the public part of the airport. UK arrivals would simply disembark into the departure lounge before heading to the public side of the airport, where they would reclaim their baggage. I don't think I've ever seen anything similar in an airport within Schengen, due to the fact that customs controls still exist to some degree. Actually, one interesting change with Schengen is that many airports simply don't have a domestic arrivals area anymore.

What is also interesting is how arriving passengers are handled these days. Some airports deposit everyone into the departures lounge with a separate exit area (for instance, Berlin or Malaga), but then others like Valencia continue to maintain a separate arrivals area. It's obviously related to the age of the terminal, but it's surprising that airports like Valencia still continue to use such a system.

However, at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, international airside transit is possible. Passengers may arrive on a non-CTA flight and transit to a non-CTA flight without having any UK physical immigration checks. (Airlines may perform checks for the purposes of ensuring the passenger is the real ticket holder, and to ensure the passenger may enter the destination.) These passengers are "outside the UK" during their transit. But they freely mingle with passengers who are "inside the UK" - including those about to take domestic flights.

Were there no "biometrics", a domestic passenger "inside the UK" could swap boarding passes with a passenger "outside the UK". As no ID is required for domestic flights, the wrong passenger could board the domestic flight and enter the UK without passing through immigration. The actual domestic passenger could then leave the airport (by passing through immigration).

It is a complex system and really only required because these airports want domestic passengers to be able to shop at the full range of airport outlets.

Thank you for that, I wasn't aware that this was the case in those airports! It is a very complicated system compared to the system used in Schengen, where the vast majority of facilities are found in the Schengen area and the non-Schengen areas tend to be very limited in comparison. In smaller airports, exit passport control can even be at the gate.

Regarding the CTA. I have never found a clear answer as to whether it applies to all British and Irish citizens, or only those who were citizens from birth, or only those who were born in the UK or Ireland or the other CTA islands. In my view, Ireland does not follow the spirit of the CTA by forcing arrivals from the UK into Dublin Airport to pass through immigration.

The CTA applies to all citizens equally. The problematic part is that you have to be able to prove it on demand, which leads to racial profiling and so on. In practice, what I've observed is that the onus is on the traveller to provide enough information for them to be classed as part of the CTA. I've tested this once when flying to Dublin, when I read that it was enough to present a bus pass. So I did, and the immigration officer in Dublin asked me where I'd flown from and what my plans were. He said "That's fine" after I told him, which was really quite ridiculous.

About the Irish ID checks at ports: this is a hugely complicated situation. The problem is that the CTA was never formalised in law, and it was more of 'custom and practice' than anything else. The rules of the CTA were developed through national law rather than international treaties, which meant that the principle of 'freedom of movement for British and Irish citizens only' was the result of various national laws more than anything else.

The CTA should really be formalised in a treaty between the UK, Irish and the island governments, but there is a remarkable reluctance on both sides to formalise it. The current situation is full of exceptions, absurdities and is nowhere near on the level of the various agreements that comprise Schengen.

One major issue with the CTA is that it's really not clear in many respects. For instance, you need a passport to travel from Ireland to the UK as an EU/EEA/CH citizen. Yet in practice, your identity card is enough, and usually airports have a bypass lane for travellers from the CTA, or they're deposited straight into the UK departure lounge. I've tried this in practice, and no-one batted an eyelid.

Really, both the UK and Ireland should grow up and start implementing a common travel space without all these strange rules, exceptions and so on.


Regarding "visa waivers". Currently no such thing is required for British citizens visiting the EU or for EU citizens visiting the UK. ETIAS is therefore an impediment to travel. It has been reported that people eligible for ETIAS will be able to use e-gates in Schengen, which may reduce immigration queues. Nonetheless, despite being called a "visa waiver", they are visas in practice because they involve hassle and require travellers to request approval before travelling. Of course, they are easier than a traditional full visa application.

No, not quite. UK citizens visiting EU countries (except Ireland!) now are given a visa waiver, which is the 90 day Schengen stamp. ETIAS effectively continues this, but with the provision that you need to pay for the pleasure of being checked against national databases. It's probably more accurate to call it a tax rather than a visa.

However, one note is that ETIAS won't be enforced at the land border. It supposedly will be extended, but there's a very real point that extending it to the land border will increase bureaucratic barriers for people living in border communities.

There was some talk above about the UK introducing such a system for EU citizens. I have not heard of any plans to introduce this generally, so if someone has a source I would appreciate it.

The UK doesn't seem to know what to do with EU/EEA/CH citizens. They aren't stamping passports, yet they're enforcing the same rules as applied to EU citizens. As it stands, there are no plans, and I suspect this is partially because of the Irish loophole when it comes to travelling.

The UK already has a visa-waiver system for citizens of some Middle Eastern countries. Previously, those citizens needed to apply for visas by going to a UK embassy and submitting a lot of personal information months before travel, so this visa waiver is a reduction of travel impediments. Introducing this system for people who currently do not need to do anything when travelling to the UK would be an increase in impediments to travel.

The system itself could be automated quite easily. It would be enough to require passenger information to be transmitted before travel, and the traveller could then receive an e-mail confirming that they are free to travel to the UK. The airlines and ferry companies could do this very easily, and it could be included in the cost of the ticket. As it stands, ETIAS and other systems are very unfriendly in terms of how they work.

I would read it as being fairly clear in that applies to all citizens of the two countries, and I'm not quite sure as to how you'd come up with a different interpretation?

With regards to arrival in Ireland, there is a technical differentiation in that CTA citizens are simply required to prove their nationality rather than submit to full immigration clearance procedures. It does seem a little bit pointless given that it's so easily evaded by travelling via NI, but legally it's no different to how EU citizens entitled to freedom of movement to and from the UK still had to prove that fact to immigration officers at the UK border.

I think the poster is referring to the fact that there are different classes of British citizen.

I do wonder why the Irish introduced these ID checks at ports to begin with. This may shed some light on it: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1997-12-02/24/

The interesting thing is that it's stated here that the purpose of the checks was to establish whether a person was to be given leave to enter Ireland. That means that in Irish legal theory, you need to be granted leave to enter Ireland, although it's completely unclear as to why they need to be checked on the air/sea borders and not the land border. One possible theory is that it's to do with how airports are designed, as having a separate CTA-arrivals area would probably not be feasible.

But yes, I suspect the UK and the island governments aren't bothered by the Irish port checks, because the UK can also reserve the right to check people on arrival that way. I've certainly been checked several times when flying into Stansted, Aberdeen and Manchester!
 
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Howardh

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The answer to "does the UK want to introduce a similar schem to the ETIAS"


The Government is planning to introduce an electronic travel authorisation (ETA) scheme for people visiting the UK who do not currently need a visa for short stays. It says this will allow security checks to be conducted and more informed decisions to be taken at an earlier stage in advance of travel as to whether individuals should be granted permission to travel to the UK. Permission to travel will need to be checked and confirmed by carriers prior to boarding. The scheme is intended to be similar to the United States’ Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA). The EU is planning to introduce a similar scheme for visa-exempt visitors travelling to the Schengen area. The Government is legislating for the ETA scheme in the Nationality and Borders Bill currently before the House of Commons.
 

XAM2175

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I think the poster is referring to the fact that there are different classes of British citizen.
Not really, though. There six different categories of British nationality, yes, of which citizenship is one. It's the only category that automatically confers the right of abode in the UK and the only one to which the CTA provisions and rights apply, and those rights apply equally regardless of whether it was obtained by descent or naturalisation.

The other categories don't even allow the holder to live in the UK without additional permission.

The interesting thing is that it's stated here that the purpose of the checks was to establish whether a person was to be given leave to enter Ireland. That means that in Irish legal theory, you need to be granted leave to enter Ireland, although it's completely unclear as to why they need to be checked on the air/sea borders and not the land border.
Legally, people entering Ireland by land who are not citizens of Ireland, the UK, or an EU/EEA country are required to present themselves to an immigration officer as soon as possible after crossing the border - but I have no idea as to how strictly this is (or isn't) enforced.

 

zero

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I would read it as being fairly clear in that applies to all citizens of the two countries, and I'm not quite sure as to how you'd come up with a different interpretation?

With regards to arrival in Ireland, there is a technical differentiation in that CTA citizens are simply required to prove their nationality rather than submit to full immigration clearance procedures. It does seem a little bit pointless given that it's so easily evaded by travelling via NI, but legally it's no different to how EU citizens entitled to freedom of movement to and from the UK still had to prove that fact to immigration officers at the UK border.

Sorry, I was confused from something I remembered from a discussion elsewhere. If "CTA" means that you don't need to show a passport to enter Ireland - then a driving licence showing a UK birthplace prior to 1983, or Irish birthplace prior to 2005, means that you are 99.99% likely to be a citizen (you could have renounced it or your father may have been a foreign diplomat). Thus, someone claimed that only British and Irish citizens born in the UK or Ireland were entitled to travel without a passport.

Not really, though. There six different categories of British nationality, yes, of which citizenship is one. It's the only category that automatically confers the right of abode in the UK and the only one to which the CTA provisions and rights apply, and those rights apply equally regardless of whether it was obtained by descent or naturalisation.

Yes there are 6 categories of British nationality, but there are also 3 or more sub-categories of British citizenship - acquired by birth, acquired by descent, and acquired by registration or naturalisation. Those acquiring citizenship by descent lack one entitlement that the others have - their citizenship does not automatically pass to their children born outside the UK.

Those acquiring citizenship by naturalisation can have it revoked if there was deliberate deception in their application - this may be a cliche but a future administration could go digging and make false accusations to deprive certain undesirables of naturalised citizenship, plus there are those cases of terrorists where the UK has made dubious claims to their other citizenships.

I suppose naturalised citizens could bring their citizenship certificate and a driving licence (or maybe bus pass!) and be allowed to pass Dublin airport immigration when showing their UK-origin boarding pass. Are there any other proofs of citizenship? Parents' birth certificates? I doubt Irish officers want to apply British nationality law on the spot.


People arriving in the UK from Dublin who require immigration clearance are also supposed to present themselves to an immigration officer. Occasionally there are cock-ups where the gates from arriving international flights are routed to the domestic arrivals area. This also happens in Schengen particularly when the non-Schengen area is just an upper level but the same gates are used.

There have been cases of tourists visa-free in Ireland who travelled to NI "illegally" undetected, but they were detected when they continued to Scotland by ferry and then deported from the UK. I have also been racially profiled by police conducting "immigration" checks at Scotland/NI ferry ports.


I don't think it's still the case, but Aberdeen Airport for instance used to have UK baggage reclaim located in the public part of the airport. UK arrivals would simply disembark into the departure lounge before heading to the public side of the airport, where they would reclaim their baggage.

What is also interesting is how arriving passengers are handled these days. Some airports deposit everyone into the departures lounge with a separate exit area (for instance, Berlin or Malaga), but then others like Valencia continue to maintain a separate arrivals area. It's obviously related to the age of the terminal, but it's surprising that airports like Valencia still continue to use such a system.


The UK doesn't seem to know what to do with EU/EEA/CH citizens. They aren't stamping passports, yet they're enforcing the same rules as applied to EU citizens.

Well Americans and Canadians etc don't get stamped either.

Not sure about airport layouts, but the EU trusts US and UK airport screening, so arrivals can be dumped into the secure non-Schengen area. This only works if passport control can be positioned in the right place. At some airports all non-Schengen has to be dumped landside (eg Athens).


The answer to "does the UK want to introduce a similar schem to the ETIAS"


Thanks for this, it seems quite clear that it's going to happen then. I was hoping the UK would not follow this trend. Though it will probably be over-budget and delayed until 2030...
 

najaB

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In my view, Ireland does not follow the spirit of the CTA by forcing arrivals from the UK into Dublin Airport to pass through immigration.
That is for exactly the reason you explained above - it is possible to arrive into Dublin via the UK without previously passing through immigration control.
 

Howardh

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When I arrived back from Jersey to Manchester, the plane arrived at an international gate, which would have meant us alighting and going through passport control, I didn't have my passport! As it happens, you get off the aircraft and walk to a bus which takes you to a rather seedy back door where officials unlock and you are straight into international baggage reclaim and then go through customs.
 

najaB

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As it happens, you get off the aircraft and walk to a bus which takes you to a rather seedy back door where officials unlock and you are straight into international baggage reclaim and then go through customs.
Sounds a lot like the "Belfast door" at Edinburgh airport.
 

DelW

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When I arrived back from Jersey to Manchester, the plane arrived at an international gate, which would have meant us alighting and going through passport control, I didn't have my passport! As it happens, you get off the aircraft and walk to a bus which takes you to a rather seedy back door where officials unlock and you are straight into international baggage reclaim and then go through customs.
At Gatwick, if the Jersey plane parked on a remote stand there was a bus transfer similar to that you describe. However quite often it would park on an international gate, meaning passengers ended up at passport control. Those without passports would be allowed through an aisle at one side, showing boarding cards as evidence of having arrived from Jersey. There were usually a few passengers who didn't know the system and hadn't kept their boarding passes handy.
 

Howardh

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At Gatwick, if the Jersey plane parked on a remote stand there was a bus transfer similar to that you describe. However quite often it would park on an international gate, meaning passengers ended up at passport control. Those without passports would be allowed through an aisle at one side, showing boarding cards as evidence of having arrived from Jersey. There were usually a few passengers who didn't know the system and hadn't kept their boarding passes handy.
Interesting! So still the risk of a queue before you get those boarding cards checked? One of the plusses about domestic travel are avoiding those pesky passport checks.
 

DelW

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Interesting! So still the risk of a queue before you get those boarding cards checked? One of the plusses about domestic travel are avoiding those pesky passport checks.
There was only one aircraft's worth of passengers at a time, so it didn't take long to get through. Though sometimes there was a bit of a wait while someone arrived to open up the bypass aisle. Anyone who had their passport with them could of course go to the main passport check desks if that looked quicker.
 

XAM2175

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If "CTA" means that you don't need to show a passport to enter Ireland - then a driving licence showing a UK birthplace prior to 1983, or Irish birthplace prior to 2005, means that you are 99.99% likely to be a citizen (you could have renounced it or your father may have been a foreign diplomat). Thus, someone claimed that only British and Irish citizens born in the UK or Ireland were entitled to travel without a passport.
No, you fundamentally misunderstand the purpose and intent of the CTA. It is at its heart an agreement that provides for British citizens to live and work in Ireland with rights equal to those of Irish citizens, and for Irish citizens to live and work in the UK with rights equal to those of British citizens, and for co-operation between the governments of the UK, Ireland, Guernsey, Jersey, and Isle of Man on immigration policy and border control. The reduction in border controls within the CTA comes as a result of this co-operation and alignment.

It can be thought of as being far closer in concept to the EU's Freedom of Movement of Workers (laying out the rights of union citizens in other member states) than it is to the Schengen Agreement (abolition of internal border controls).

While it may be true that people may have different documentation depending on how and when they acquired British citizenship, it's irrelevant to the practical mechanics of movement within the CTA because a person need only satisfy the immigration officer that they hold British or Irish citizenship at the time they are being examined. It just happens to be easier for some people than it is for others (though I accept that this is perhaps unfair).
 

Howardh

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There was only one aircraft's worth of passengers at a time, so it didn't take long to get through. Though sometimes there was a bit of a wait while someone arrived to open up the bypass aisle. Anyone who had their passport with them could of course go to the main passport check desks if that looked quicker.
Thanks, at Manchester we have to wait a while on the bus when we get to the door, the driver pops out and calls someone on the phone. One wonders if no-one is there to answer or even gets the dreaded "your call is important to us..." message whether we'd wait..and wait...or be driven back to passport and shepherded through there!!
 

zero

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That is for exactly the reason you explained above - it is possible to arrive into Dublin via the UK without previously passing through immigration control.

Sorry, I don't follow - as it is possible to enter Ireland from the UK without any checks, why would this mean that there must be checks at Dublin Airport only?

I thought the proximate reason was just that they chose not to build / expand the airport in such a way that UK (and domestic and CI/IOM) flights would be directed to a separate zone from other flights - although they have subsequently chosen to expand / renovate the airport in a way that accommodates US preclearance.

I am not sure what proportion of flights/passengers through DUB are CTA vs US (though only matters for departures) vs other destinations.
 

najaB

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Sorry, I don't follow - as it is possible to enter Ireland from the UK without any checks, why would this mean that there must be checks at Dublin Airport only?
It'll be due to volume of flow. A not insignificant number of passengers arriving at Dublin Airport will have transited Heathrow/Gatwick/Manchester so they found/find it easier to just have the one area.
 

berneyarms

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Sorry, I don't follow - as it is possible to enter Ireland from the UK without any checks, why would this mean that there must be checks at Dublin Airport only?
I thought the proximate reason was just that they chose not to build / expand the airport in such a way that UK (and domestic and CI/IOM) flights would be directed to a separate zone from other flights - although they have subsequently chosen to expand / renovate the airport in a way that accommodates US preclearance.

I am not sure what proportion of flights/passengers through DUB are CTA vs US (though only matters for departures) vs other destinations.

The reason for the full passport / ID checks inbound at Irish airports is simply that the volume of people arriving into Ireland by air who did not have an appropriate visa was viewed by the Irish authorities to be a risk (a visa for the UK does not equate to one for Ireland).

Yes people can get into Ireland via NI, but the numbers of people entering the country illegally via that route were seemingly insignificant compared to those by air.

There are still spot checks on cross-border buses and trains from time to time which are generally intelligence led.

As above, the CTA provisions apply to all citizens of Ireland, UK, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
 

185143

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Only time I've flown domestically in the UK was with FlyMaybe from Manchester to Southend and back. I had my passport just in case, but asked on the way out if a driving licence would have been OK and was told it was.

I recently did a day trip to Dublin on the Stena ferry from Holyhead. ID was only checked on arrival in both directions. Though at Dublin they asked us to confirm the details they had for us were correct. Holyhead just took the booking confirmation number and issued boarding passes.
 

melon68

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I flew from Belfast to East Midlands a couple of weeks ago and the plain clothes police (or border force, I wasn't sure which) inspected everyone's boarding passes and asked for ID. It caused a bit of a kerfuffle as it was totally unexpected. I asked the cop why this was and he politely told me that passengers had been reported as travelling on fake IDs (or presumably not under their real names)!
 

AlterEgo

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I flew from Belfast to East Midlands a couple of weeks ago and the plain clothes police (or border force, I wasn't sure which) inspected everyone's boarding passes and asked for ID. It caused a bit of a kerfuffle as it was totally unexpected. I asked the cop why this was and he politely told me that passengers had been reported as travelling on fake IDs (or presumably not under their real names)!
Likely acting on specific intelligence relating to organised crime. PSNI a regular sight at Belfast City, usually looking for someone.
 

Howardh

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Appalling scenes at Dover yesterday with the queues for passport control. Makes CTA travel much more appealing! As regards Dover, this is the prime time for any disruption, be it strikes, protests, bad management etc. You could almost mark it on the calendar, and whi I don't travel at all for the next 6 weeks or so. But the new insist on having passports stamped adds time, especially if understaffed.

As I mentioned, I go to Jersey a lot now, which still feels "abroad" but avoids the mass getaway. Just wish Gibraltar could be part of the CTA concerning direct flights from the UK; but that would create difficulties with the Spanish border having to be hardened, the delays there would outweigh airport delays by hundreds to one!
 

najaB

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I flew from Belfast to East Midlands a couple of weeks ago...
If it was literally a couple of weeks ago then it would likely be related to Marching Season. There's always an enhanced security presence around mid-July.
 

zero

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Just wish Gibraltar could be part of the CTA concerning direct flights from the UK; but that would create difficulties with the Spanish border having to be hardened, the delays there would outweigh airport delays by hundreds to one!

Gibraltar is joining Schengen, depending on how negotiations go. This may result in the odd situation of British citizens needing Schengen ETIAS approval to visit a British territory.
 

Cloud Strife

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Gibraltar is joining Schengen, depending on how negotiations go. This may result in the odd situation of British citizens needing Schengen ETIAS approval to visit a British territory.

Don't bet on it. I'm following the situation closely, and a contact within the Government of Gibraltar says that a major hurdle is that the UK won't agree to Gibraltar joining Schengen in their own right, while Gibraltar will not accept Spain carrying out controls in Gibraltar.

Spain and Gibraltar have found some degree of agreement in terms of Frontex controlling only non-Gibraltarians, while Gibraltarians would be checked by the Gibraltarian immigration authorities. At the same time, the likely next Spanish government of the PP allied with Vox will almost certanly demand either Spanish officers in Gibraltar or the restoration of the frontier.

Just wish Gibraltar could be part of the CTA concerning direct flights from the UK; but that would create difficulties with the Spanish border having to be hardened, the delays there would outweigh airport delays by hundreds to one!

It has been proposed, but Gibraltar has different rules to the UK, and they're very unwilling to give up those things. For instance, if you're from a selected list of countries and have a valid Schengen double-entry (or more) visa, then you can enter Gibraltar visa-free too.
 

Howardh

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Don't bet on it. I'm following the situation closely, and a contact within the Government of Gibraltar says that a major hurdle is that the UK won't agree to Gibraltar joining Schengen in their own right, while Gibraltar will not accept Spain carrying out controls in Gibraltar.

Spain and Gibraltar have found some degree of agreement in terms of Frontex controlling only non-Gibraltarians, while Gibraltarians would be checked by the Gibraltarian immigration authorities. At the same time, the likely next Spanish government of the PP allied with Vox will almost certanly demand either Spanish officers in Gibraltar or the restoration of the frontier.



It has been proposed, but Gibraltar has different rules to the UK, and they're very unwilling to give up those things. For instance, if you're from a selected list of countries and have a valid Schengen double-entry (or more) visa, then you can enter Gibraltar visa-free too.
I may be wrong, but I think - up till now - UK nationals have the right to live (and work?) in Gib visa-free and possibly vice-versa. That would have to change post-schengen, unless the only way to maintain an open border would be, like Ireland, pragmatic - so UK's can still move to Gibraltar and live/work there without Schengen Visa (but not to Europe as a whole) and if they cross the open border for shopping, tourism, visiting etc then simply shrug shoulders.

Brits won't be able to gain employment in Spain without that visa, so it barely matters if we can cross that border freely or not?

However, if Gibraltar can't/won't join Schengen and a hard border is imposed between GIB and Spain, then I do hope the CTA with Gibraltar is revisited.
 
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zero

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I may be wrong, but I think - up till now - UK nationals have the right to live (and work?) in Gib visa-free and possibly vice-versa. That would have to change post-schengen, unless the only way to maintain an open border would be, like Ireland, pragmatic - so UK's can still move to Gibraltar and live/work there without Schengen Visa (but not to Europe as a whole) and if they cross the open border for shopping, tourism, visiting etc then simply shrug shoulders.

Brits won't be able to gain employment in Spain without that visa, so it barely matters if we can cross that border freely or not?

However, if Gibraltar can't/won't join Schengen and a hard border is imposed between GIB and Spain, then I do hope the CTA with Gibraltar is revisited.

Not necessarily. Like the UK and Ireland, Schengen countries don't all have the same visa rules.

There are certain visas or visa waiver statuses that only allow the holder to be in one Schengen country or even one part of a Schengen country, or to live in one Schengen country indefinitely but only visit other Schengen countries for 90 days, or even to stay in certain Schengen countries for more than the normal 90 days.
 

XAM2175

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I may be wrong, but I think - up till now - UK nationals have the right to live (and work?) in Gib visa-free and possibly vice-versa. That would have to change post-schengen, unless the only way to maintain an open border would be, like Ireland, pragmatic - so UK's can still move to Gibraltar and live/work there without Schengen Visa (but not to Europe as a whole) and if they cross the open border for shopping, tourism, visiting etc then simply shrug shoulders.
Again, you're conflating freedom to seek residence and employment with freedom to cross a border without checks. The two are sometimes related, but more often then not they are entirely separate.

so UK's can still move to Gibraltar and live/work there without Schengen Visa (but not to Europe as a whole)
Residence and employment visas are issued by Schengen member states for their territories only, not for the whole of the Schengen area.
 

Cloud Strife

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I may be wrong, but I think - up till now - UK nationals have the right to live (and work?) in Gib visa-free and possibly vice-versa.

Yes, full FoM in both directions.

Gibraltar also has very laid back rules surrounding employment of EU citizens, simply due to their need for migrant labour. Non-British, non-EU citizens are subject to similar rules like in the UK, however.

That would have to change post-schengen, unless the only way to maintain an open border would be, like Ireland, pragmatic - so UK's can still move to Gibraltar and live/work there without Schengen Visa (but not to Europe as a whole) and if they cross the open border for shopping, tourism, visiting etc then simply shrug shoulders.

No, no need for it to change. Each Schengen country decides on the rules for issuing residence and work permits. Schengen only regulates short stay visas, nothing more. For example, Poland and Germany have rather soft regimes, but Spain has quite a tough regime. In the case of Gibraltar, they would regulate the rules, and they can perfectly well offer work/residence permits to other British citizens with minimal formalities. This is actually one of the sticking points, because Spain will 'guarantee' Schengen on behalf of Gibraltar. Spain, rightfully, wants to veto who Gibraltar issues residents permits to.

Brits won't be able to gain employment in Spain without that visa, so it barely matters if we can cross that border freely or not?

They won't be able to gain employment anyway. Schengen rules mean that you need a work permit for each country, even if you have a residence permit in one Schengen country. So, Gibraltarians and other British citizens will need a work permit for working in Spain, although there won't be border controls in La Linea. However, I believe that part of the discussions are about implementing FoM between Gibraltar and the EU, which is a no-brainer.

However, if Gibraltar can't/won't join Schengen and a hard border is imposed between GIB and Spain, then I do hope the CTA with Gibraltar is revisited.

From the Gibraltarian perspective, the hard border is already there. Even if there's no deal between the three sides, nothing will change as far as the border goes. Gibraltar doesn't need to impose stricter controls, because Spain is effectively migration-secure as it is.

They could join the CTA tomorrow, provided they were willing to accept Spain transforming their side of the border into a full non-EU border crossing and Gibraltarians no longer being waved into Spain.

That's the problem here: either we find an agreement, or Spain and the EU will finally transform the Spanish side of the border into a normal international border crossing with a non-EU country. Having said that, my contacts there suggest that the EU is willing to continue indefinitely with the current arrangements, provided that Gibraltar continues to move away from low taxes on tobacco and alcohol.

Again, you're conflating freedom to seek residence and employment with freedom to cross a border without checks. The two are sometimes related, but more often then not they are entirely separate.

A good example: Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican City are de facto in Schengen. Yet there's no FoM between them and the EU, and in the case of the Vatican City, they're also not in a customs union with Italy due to their lack of taxation, meaning that customs checks can take place on the border. However, those three plus Andorra don't have their passports stamped when crossing the Schengen border,
 
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