Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[yorksrob]

Except they do, Covid proved that.

Leisure travellers have excelled in numbers to the point that most companies are struggling to transport them, particularly at weekends. Those who use the train because it’s the fastest, most convenient way to their place of work will return. (I appreciate there’s an increase in working from home for those that choose this route, but that was always going to be the case and has been predicted since the 80’s)

The slight issue with that is that people who would otherwise have been travelling by train, tended to stay at home due to the pandemic. This time they'll be wanting to travel and finding alternatives, which could be damaging to the industry if it goes on.

 

[ar10642]

Except they do, Covid proved that.

Leisure travellers have excelled in numbers to the point that most companies are struggling to transport them, particularly at weekends. Those who use the train because it’s the fastest, most convenient way to their place of work will return. (I appreciate there’s an increase in working from home for those that choose this route, but that was always going to be the case and has been predicted since the 80’s)

Well that's before railway staff started making a special effort to trash people's plans.

 

[Fokx]

The slight issue with that is that people who would otherwise have been travelling by train, tended to stay at home due to the pandemic. This time they'll be wanting to travel and finding alternatives, which could be damaging to the industry if it goes on.

I disagree with you there. I’ve been speaking to chattier passengers regarding the disruption my TOC is currently facing and their main complaint is the fact the bus they’re occasionally forced to take takes MUCH longer (despite being cheaper). My partner currently isn’t happy with the local train service currently but will continue to use it on non-disruption days because it saves them an additional hour each way on their commute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2022 ==

Well that's before railway staff started making a special effort to trash people's plans.

Railway staff did not make a special effort to trash peoples plans, they simply took action against the proposed cuts to terms and conditions that the DfT are planning to impose whilst also wanting a pay rise to combat the highest levels of inflation the UK has seen for some time so they can pay for their fuel, mortgages/rent, taxes, NI, household bills and food costs, all of which have massively increased within the last year.

Most passengers understand this, and aren’t angry with the frontline staff, but are annoyed with the senior management and/or government.

 

[dk1]

Meanwhile the passengers move onto other transport and don't bother coming back.

Don’t believe that for one minute. I’ve been on the railways for almost 38 years & been interested in it much longer than that. In that time passengers have been treated with contempt through strikes & everything else you could possibly shake a stick at. To my amazement they always come back & bring their uncle, sister & great great nephew with them too. Always works itself out as they have very very short memories. Sounds complacent but it’s true.

 

[ar10642]

I disagree with you there. I’ve been speaking to chattier passengers regarding the disruption my TOC is currently facing and their main complaint is the fact the bus they’re occasionally forced to take takes MUCH longer (despite being cheaper). My partner currently isn’t happy with the local train service currently but will continue to use it on non-disruption days because it saves them an additional hour each way on their commute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2022 ==



Railway staff did not make a special effort to trash peoples plans, they simply took action against the proposed cuts to terms and conditions that the DfT are planning to impose whilst also wanting a pay rise to combat the highest levels of inflation the UK has seen for some time so they can pay for their fuel, mortgages/rent, taxes, NI, household bills and food costs, all of which have massively increased within the last year.

Most passengers understand this, and aren’t angry with the frontline staff, but are annoyed with the senior management and/or government.

Yeah I'm a bit bored of hearing all that. We're all in the same boat. It's the staff who are refusing to show up to work and they can't blame anyone else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2022 ==

Don’t believe that for one minute. I’ve been on the railways for almost 38 years & been interested in it much longer than that. In that time passengers have been treated with contempt through strikes & everything else you could possibly shake a stick at. To my amazement they always come back & bring their uncle, sister & great great nephew with them too. Always works itself out as they have very very short memories. Sounds complacent but it’s true.

I've been telling myself that it's worth paying a lot extra to take the train to work so I don't have to concentrate but I tried driving on my last trip to work. It was an 30 mins quicker door to door each way and £23 less all in. Not sure I'll bother with the train much more if this continues. I'm not really interested in the RMTs crusade against the government.

 

[Fokx]

Yeah I'm a bit bored of hearing all that. We're all in the same boat.

Exactly, join a union and fight for maintaining working conditions.

It's the staff who are refusing to show up to work and they can't blame anyone else.

Not quite.
It is the staff who have legally balloted collectively, and mutually came to the decision that they’re mutually unhappy with the current working conditions, and future cuts to their contractual agreement (with astonishing favour), and until things change are legally withdrawing their labour (their most powerful asset to the business) to demonstrate that things need to change in order to retain said employees and keep them happy and productive.


It is the option of last resort usually following a break down, or lack of communication from/with the employer. Avenues before strike are always explored, and strike action is only taken when these are not successful. An unhappy workplace leads to unhappy workers.

 

[ar10642]

Not quite.
It is the staff who have legally balloted collectively, and mutually came to the decision that they’re mutually unhappy with the current working conditions, and future cuts to their contractual agreement (with astonishing favour), and until things change are legally withdrawing their labour (their most powerful asset to the business) to demonstrate that things need to change in order to retain said employees and keep them happy and productive.

An unhappy workplace leads to unhappy workers.

The passengers can withdraw their custom too, which is what I'll be doing for the foreseeable. Obviously the railway doesn't care and never has.

 

[Fokx]

The passengers can withdraw their custom too, which is what I'll be doing for the foreseeable. Obviously the railway doesn't care and never has.

You’ll be back at some point, passengers always do.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You’ll be back at some point, passengers always do.

Leisure traffic is discretionary. Do not count on it.

 

[Fokx]

Leisure traffic is discretionary. Do not count on it.

I’d happily bet it on it. Discretionary it may be, but at some point, nearly all of the population has to travel by train in their life, even if it’s just once in a blue moon.

Wether it’s travelling to an Airport, or to a gig/festival, a quick weekend away, a car in for maintenance, traveling to a wedding or a funeral, it’s the most efficient method of public transport on a time vs cost basis. (Statistically I imagine someone actively posting and signed up to a railway forum is at some point going to use a train)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’d happily bet it on it. Discretionary it may be, but at some point, nearly all of the population has to travel by train in their life, even if it’s just once in a blue moon.

Wether it’s travelling to an Airport, or to a gig/festival, a quick weekend away, a car in for maintenance, traveling to a wedding or a funeral, it’s the most efficient method of public transport on a time vs cost basis. (Statistically I imagine someone actively posting and signed up to a railway forum is at some point going to use a train)

It probably is - when the railway is not disrupted by strikes.

(quote a real example , of minibuses being hired to transport a group of young people on a holiday to Gatwick from here , as there is a strike on Wednesday)

In my long experience , reliabilty of a journey is one of the key things people look for , especially for airport traffic. Amazingly , this applies to other journeys - like turning up on for funerals , gigs and so on which your refer to.

 

[ar10642]

I’d happily bet it on it. Discretionary it may be, but at some point, nearly all of the population has to travel by train in their life, even if it’s just once in a blue moon.

Wether it’s travelling to an Airport, or to a gig/festival, a quick weekend away, a car in for maintenance, traveling to a wedding or a funeral, it’s the most efficient method of public transport on a time vs cost basis. (Statistically I imagine someone actively posting and signed up to a railway forum is at some point going to use a train)

I'm not going to be doing any of that. If the car's broken it's the bike or bus, nearest station with a half decent service is 8 miles away.

I use it for trips to the office and occasional leisure trips to London and I can't really spare the time or money for the London trips anymore.

I joined this forum because I was interested in the railways but to be honest it's the staff themselves who have put me off. Wouldn't be too bothered if they started shutting some of it down now.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The passengers can withdraw their custom too, which is what I'll be doing for the foreseeable. Obviously the railway doesn't care and never has.

Could you rephrase that to "Whitehall" doesn't care and never has ?

The "railway" management wouldn't have chosen underfloor engined DEMUs for the INTERCITY offering. Neither would they have parked up 11 year old EMUs, after agreeing to replace them with brand new EMUs just for the sake of it. Neither would thye have wasted £40+ million on 18 non standard five car EMUs with known flaws. Neither would they have withdrawn and stored 20 year old DEMUs involved in short forming sister units.

There is a subtle distinction between the staff at the coal face who have been ground down by the last few years of utter foolish waste by those in the ivory towers, and Whitehall.

 

[JonathanH]

Neither would they have parked up 11 year old EMUs, after agreeing to replace them with brand new EMUs just for the sake of it. Neither would thye have wasted £40+ million on 18 non standard five car EMUs with known flaws. Neither would they have withdrawn and stored 20 year old DEMUs involved in short forming sister units.

You are conflating pre and post pandemic issues here. The treasury wants to reduce the amount it pays for the railway - decisions may have been different had it not happened. The industrial relations disputes are clear evidence of that.

There is a bit of sunk cost fallacy about the decisions on 379s, 442s and Avanti's 221s you describe but each of those decisions save the railway operational costs, as does pay restraint. You could argue that closing ticket offices and going to driver only operation are similar given training of staff and the infrastructure in place in ticket offices which are also sunk costs that will be lost but the treasury sees a greater prize in removing future costs in those areas.

The "railway" management

...would have been forced in BR days to operate within the budgets set by the Treasury and that may have led to difficult decisions also.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Could you rephrase that to "Whitehall" doesn't care and never has ?

The "railway" management wouldn't have chosen underfloor engined DEMUs for the INTERCITY offering.

Really? What has Whitehall got to do with Grand Central and Hull Trains? Or the decision by Virgin XC to order the Voyagers?

 

[Starmill]

You’ll be back at some point, passengers always do.

Do you not have any self-awareness that this attitude is one of the things that has resulted in the current period of financial tightening? I know that you and others would seek to place 100% of the blame for an unreasonable stance in pay negotiations with the Treasury and Ministers, but perhaps for one moment you could try to see it from their point of view. Customer satisfaction is very low and growth wasn't particularly impressive when viewed alongside general population growth and urban agglomeration even before the pandemic. Costs have been rising far faster than revenues for many years. Perhaps if the industry had striven to protect its reputation a little better and put more focus on doing more with less it would be in a financially healthier condition. Well and good to argue for more subsidy, as this is certainly a supportable position, but does that mean that this sort of complacency with a reliance on public funds is a good idea?

In other words, your posts here come across as astonishingly hubristic. This sort of bad attitude in the industry is part of the cause of the insecurity of work that some colleagues are now facing.

 

[JonathanH]

Really? What has Whitehall got to do with Grand Central and Hull Trains?

I don't think that the OP was thinking about them. Neither were the first to use underfloor engined trains for intercity services.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't think that the OP was thinking about them. Neither were the first to use underfloor engined trains for intercity services.

I know he wasn't thinking about them. He was trying to make a point that was simply wrong. OAOs aren't controlled by Whitehall. Whitehall has no say at all over them but they have DMUs on InterCity routes.

 

[JonathanH]

Whitehall has no say at all over them but they have DMUs on InterCity routes.

Yes, but as small operators they are forced to operate with the available rolling stock. In Grand Central's case that is secondhand 180s because they were the only 125mph stock available. In the case of Hull Trains that is 802s, based on trains developed originally by Whitehall.

Hull Trains appears to have some industrial relations issues at present as well. Those arent anything to do with Whitehall either.

 

[kenlai1996]

You’ll be back at some point, passengers always do.

Recently took up a new job in Liverpool that requires me to travel to York once a month.

Booked the 0724 from LIV this coming Thursday, which is now I assumed cancelled due to the strike previous day (removed from timetable). Will now be driving instead. Will I consider the railway in the future for this trip? Probably not as I can claim back more petrol money from work than what my car uses (Toyota Aygo), and also point to point travel.

This is in addition to driving to Manchester Airport and paying for parking instead of taking the train for the past few holidays, due to Northern's reliability.

I thought this Thursday's trip would be me giving the rail another shot, but it would appear the railway doesn't want my customs. I last took a train in March to London and my only memory was drunks at 7am, breastfeeding mothers, screaming babies and the Euston scrum.

I truly believe for many people driving is cheaper, more convenient, more reliable and is a more civilised experience than train.

 

[Fokx]

Do you not have any self-awareness that this attitude is one of the things that has resulted in the current period of financial tightening?
I know that you and others would seek to place 100% of the blame for an unreasonable stance in pay negotiations with the Treasury and Ministers, but perhaps for one moment you could try to see it from their point of view. Customer satisfaction is very low and growth wasn't particularly impressive when viewed alongside general population growth and urban agglomeration even before the pandemic. Costs have been rising far faster than revenues for many years. Perhaps if the industry had striven to protect its reputation a little better and put more focus on doing more with less it would be in a financially healthier condition.

An under-inflationary pay rise after three years of 0% despite rises in RPI is not unreasonable, and something I won’t apologise for, particularly when most company’s we’re making profits for FY19 that would have been reflected in the 2020 pay awards had Covid-19 had a more serious impact a solitary months later than it did. The CEO of Network Rail has just saw a salary increase of 6.5% after telling workers to accept worse conditions for a pay increase of 4% not too long ago (That’s an increase of £36,000 to £590,000).

There are ways of cutting costs and the financial burden of the railway industry that aren’t cuts to working conditions to the front line. All franchised railway companies should have been transferred to the operator of last resort by default instead of NRC’s keeping railway profits within the railway industry for reinvestment. Productivity should be looked at from the perspective of flexibility rather than expecting employees to work more hours for no increase in pay. ROSCO’s should have been brought in-house years ago. We shouldn’t have trains less than 20 years old laid up in sidings because they’re too expensive to lease compared to brand-new stock, can you imagine if a car dealership acted this way?! There isn’t any logical reason why Northern staff can’t cover a TPE service on sections such as Liverpool to Manchester Victoria for example if both TOC’s in theory had the same traction or traction training. Even minuscule savings would have an impact, The DfT are currently paying SSP/RG to supply catering, costs savings can be achieved here by bulk ordering the same products for all TOC’s. Is there really an argument for having multiple brands of bottled water served in first class depending on the TOC rather than bulk buying the same amount of water from one company for all TOC’s and reducing cost per unit?

You can hardly blame the industry as a whole for the lack of growth in terms of infrastructure when that’s largely financially controlled by the Department for transport. The industry does want to grow and expand but it’s the Government and DfT that have repeatedly said no. In my area we’ve seen two new stations over the last few years (Warrington West and Maghull North) but at the same time we’ve also seen cuts to HS2 plans, Piccadilly 15/16 cancelled, and Merseytravel refused funding for an extension to Skelmeresdale, and to build Merseytram. All of which would have massively benefited the local population and the GPD of these areas. Even on a macro-scale, my TOC wanted to increase areas served by serving additional stations and again was told point blank no.

Well and good to argue for more subsidy, as this is certainly a supportable position, but does that mean that this sort of complacency with a reliance on public funds is a good idea?

Absolutely as the railway generates growth in GPD. The subsidy the UK pays for transport is much less than most of our European counterparts who understand the importance of providing cheap, affordable transport for the population.

It’s not just the railway industry that should be subsidised either, Over the last ten years, funding for bus companies in the UK has been slashed by government, from council contracted services to remuneration for pensioner passes and this has seen massive cuts to bus timetables and service provision

In other words, your posts here come across as astonishingly hubristic. This sort of bad attitude in the industry is part of the cause of the insecurity of work that some colleagues are now facing.

If you met me personally you wouldn’t describe me as having a bad attitude. I enjoy my job, and I’m extremely passionate about the railway and it’s value to those who use it. However, I am extremely confident that passengers will return to the railway after the occasional strike which is currently less than three days for every month.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Most passengers understand this, and aren’t angry with the frontline staff, but are annoyed with the senior management and/or government.

Have you a source for this statement above, especially with regards to the use of the word "most".

I did note the mention made of "senior management" and/or "government" especially stated, which does seem to betray an inner feeling that you personally may have but not one that you can attach to "most passengers".

 

[Vespa]

I'm due to go London in September, since my last experience, I'm now making contingency plans including driving down, Google map estimated it will take 3h 22m plus maybe another hour on the tube, about the same length of time compared to LNWR, work from home is increasingly popular commuting will be less important leaving only the leisure market to fill the gap and that could be shaky at best.

Post pandemic world have changed a lot of things including travel, work and life priorities, right now the long term fundamental societal shift is still yet to be felt in the years to come as we have only just got out to the other side recently.

From my location to Liverpool city centre by bus is 20 minures longer than by train which I can live with, I can drive and park up a reasonable distance to walk in.

I could have got a train to Manchester airport however my train gets cancelled a few times which puts me off using it.

Passengers want consistency and reliability above everything else not uncertainty and cancellations.

Railways could find itself becoming irrelevant and will suffer a death of a thousand cuts, the railway staff do get above the median scale salary well above minimum wage, they should do a realistic pragmatic deal, Mick Lynch made some anti Tory statements which reminds me of Arthur Scargill who used his union as a vehicle for an anti Tory campaign destroying the union in the process leaving a legacy of bitterness in split mining communities.

 

[Fokx]

Have you a source for this statement above, especially with regards to the use of the word "most".

I did note the mention made of "senior management" and/or "government" especially stated, which does seem to betray an inner feeling that you personally may have but not one that you can attach to "most passengers".

Not currently to hand at 4am in the depot messroom, but there has been a few a surveys carried out by the likes of news reports on said topic. Even GMB ran a Twitter poll where public support was in the field of 80% support the strike action, and then re-did the same poll hours later (I presume to get a different result to report on) only to achieve a similar outcome.

Not at all, just conversations on the front line with my own passengers, observations from tweets to my TOC customer service department and comments left on news articles. I have no bias for my TOC’s senior management (or any others), not the DfT.

I’m not the biggest fan of Shapps though, you could even say I loathe him. If he spent more time actually sorting transport issues that mattered rather than lying with every breath and making cheesy marking campaigns on TikTok than the transport sector as a whole would be much better for it. Has anyone really noticed less announcements? I certainly haven’t.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’d happily bet it on it. Discretionary it may be, but at some point, nearly all of the population has to travel by train in their life, even if it’s just once in a blue moon.

Wether it’s travelling to an Airport, or to a gig/festival, a quick weekend away, a car in for maintenance, traveling to a wedding or a funeral, it’s the most efficient method of public transport on a time vs cost basis. (Statistically I imagine someone actively posting and signed up to a railway forum is at some point going to use a train)

You really shouldn't, the leisure market is far more volatile & much more prone to influences such as rising prices or general cost of living. And hey guess what, the railways are busy creating the perfect storm of increasing unreliability, cutbacks & industrial action along rising ticket prices & rampant inflation. When people's budget start to get stretched one of the first things to go are those discretionary leisure trips. And then you also have to consider the potential impact on bus price caps in some regions proposed for later in the year. For short journeys within large towns & cities, this could be a game changer.

 

[JoeyB]

An under-inflationary pay rise after three years of 0% despite rises in RPI is not unreasonable, and something I won’t apologise for, particularly when most company’s we’re making profits for FY19 that would have been reflected in the 2020 pay awards had Covid-19 had a more serious impact a solitary months later than it did. The CEO of Network Rail has just saw a salary increase of 6.5% after telling workers to accept worse conditions for a pay increase of 4% not too long ago (That’s an increase of £36,000 to £590,000).

I don't particularly wish to defend him, but my understanding is that he took a voluntary 20% pay cut during 4 months of Covid. So his loss was greater than the 36k increase that was added to his salary from 2021/2022.

It's important that workers have the facts as it will ultimately help them make their decisions.

 

[43066]

Actually its a reason to consider what is realistic. Lets be honest here, what if the unions demanded 20%, or 30%, even 50% rises. Would you blindly follow the unions direction in the hope of getting somewhere in-between?

Very obviously that isn’t what’s being proposed here. Unlike you I actually work in the industry. I know a lot of RMT members, I know why they’re striking and it’s nothing to do with “blindly following the union”, as you insultingly put it. They are not idiots: none of them are expecting even a deal to match inflation. However they want to avoid Covid etc. being used as an excuse to drive through a load of nasties in terms of permanent Ts and Cs changes.

Well the rumour upthread is 8% plus no compulsory redundancies. Whist it remains to be seen if this is anywhere near the mark, if it is which part of that would you consider unpalatable,

Surely it’s obvious? It entirely depends what else is bundled in. It isn’t just about pay. How many more times does that need to be spelt out? Again, as a union rep, you should surely understand that.

Personally I’d be very disappointed if ASLEF accepted a “no compulsory redundancies” guarantee as part of an offer to drivers, as it is irrelevant to the grade and would no doubt be used as an excuse to water down something that would be more beneficial. The RMT is in a different position of course, but the redundancies issue is still only one objective.

keeping in mind that Joe Public won't see beyond those simple measures (and their opinions can help drive the employer's, i.e. the government's decision making).

Irrelevant. Joe Public aren’t RMT members.

No. But I also learnt that you had to read the room. For example if I were a top table rep today (which by the way I never was, so I had little say in union policy) I would be cautious about going after big pay rises in an environment where the employer, in my case the government, were looking for massive savings. It doesn't matter why they are looking for such, but chasing the big rises can, and does put your members right in the firing line. Being a union rep at whatever level isn't just about shouting for more, it is about balancing what you can achieve. Through the 10 or so years I spent as a local rep, I dealt with all manner of disputes. Some were glaringly obviously winnable ones, others not so. And for the latter I learnt to get a feel for what was feasible, and what was not.

Not quite sure what makes you such an expert on the railway industry that you know more than a union that has been operating in the sector for over a century?

The RMTs members are already well and truly in the firing line. Taking industrial action is not likely to lead to *worse* outcomes. Employers don’t tend to say “we will give you a decent pay rise and guarantee of no redundancies” as a reward for not striking!

Your advice would be what: just roll over and accept a massive real terms pay increase and wholesale changes to Ts and Cs because this is “unwinnable”? That attitude has worked so well for the public sector. It’s simply not going to happen on the railway.

A good union knows and understands when their ambitions might exceed what is actually possible.

Including the the RMT who, at least on the railway, are one of the most effective unions and have done a far better job for their members than the wider public sector unions.

It would be quite easy to prove the damages if a member of frontline staff fails to work their notice period. At the very least there would be the additional cost of e.g. time and a half overtime from getting someone else to cover.

Whether companies actually do enforce the notice period is a different matter.

They could theoretically sue for damages but would never do so, simply because the cost of taking action would rapidly equal or exceed the amount being claimed.

If employers need to threaten court action to prevent employees leaving, that would also suggest they had their priorities somewhat wrong.

Not sure I'll bother with the train much more if this continues.

Feel free not to then.

Yeah I'm a bit bored of hearing all that.

As you said to someone upthread: if you don’t like it, don’t read it! This dispute isn’t about you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2022 ==

the railway staff do get above the median scale salary well above minimum wage,

That comment speaks volumes about the way you view railway staff. God forbid anyone dares to earn above minimum wage…

 

[Horizon22]

Presumably you don’t work on the railway as that’s not how this strike is currently being played out.

We (RMT) all voted together, we all took collective action together, we’re all suffering the losses together and we all continue take industrial action because we’re stronger as a collective bargaining unit.

Industrial action isn’t going to stop until the collective demands/conditions are met, so if Network Rail’s demands are met, action will still take place until the TOC and Station staff conditions are also met. I certainly wouldn’t be stabbing my railway colleagues in the back to save my own skin.

You can already see that the DfT have increased their proposed pay award and gone back to no compulsory redundancies. Now there’s DCO/DOO, Maintenance staff numbers and job roles, station staffing/ticket offices, and the fact the DfT are proposing every single member of the railway works more hours for less pay.

There’s no point accepting an 8% pay offer if the DfT are proposing ridiculous conditions such as extending the working week to increase by 20% (35 to 42 hrs) with no increase in overall salary.

There also has to be some understanding of compromise though. Pay increases, guarantees on certain working conditions and no drastic T&C changes that are particularly galling for the RMT should be offered, but an appreciation of other practices that have to change, an agreement for future years and an appreciation of the general financial status of the railway by the RMT also has to be part of it.

 

[Starmill]

An under-inflationary pay rise after three years of 0% despite rises in RPI is not unreasonable, and something I won’t apologise for, particularly when most company’s we’re making profits for FY19 that would have been reflected in the 2020 pay awards had Covid-19 had a more serious impact a solitary months later than it did. The CEO of Network Rail has just saw a salary increase of 6.5% after telling workers to accept worse conditions for a pay increase of 4% not too long ago (That’s an increase of £36,000 to £590,000).

There are ways of cutting costs and the financial burden of the railway industry that aren’t cuts to working conditions to the front line. All franchised railway companies should have been transferred to the operator of last resort by default instead of NRC’s keeping railway profits within the railway industry for reinvestment. Productivity should be looked at from the perspective of flexibility rather than expecting employees to work more hours for no increase in pay. ROSCO’s should have been brought in-house years ago. We shouldn’t have trains less than 20 years old laid up in sidings because they’re too expensive to lease compared to brand-new stock, can you imagine if a car dealership acted this way?! There isn’t any logical reason why Northern staff can’t cover a TPE service on sections such as Liverpool to Manchester Victoria for example if both TOC’s in theory had the same traction or traction training. Even minuscule savings would have an impact, The DfT are currently paying SSP/RG to supply catering, costs savings can be achieved here by bulk ordering the same products for all TOC’s. Is there really an argument for having multiple brands of bottled water served in first class depending on the TOC rather than bulk buying the same amount of water from one company for all TOC’s and reducing cost per unit?

You can hardly blame the industry as a whole for the lack of growth in terms of infrastructure when that’s largely financially controlled by the Department for transport. The industry does want to grow and expand but it’s the Government and DfT that have repeatedly said no. In my area we’ve seen two new stations over the last few years (Warrington West and Maghull North) but at the same time we’ve also seen cuts to HS2 plans, Piccadilly 15/16 cancelled, and Merseytravel refused funding for an extension to Skelmeresdale, and to build Merseytram. All of which would have massively benefited the local population and the GPD of these areas. Even on a macro-scale, my TOC wanted to increase areas served by serving additional stations and again was told point blank no.

Absolutely as the railway generates growth in GPD. The subsidy the UK pays for transport is much less than most of our European counterparts who understand the importance of providing cheap, affordable transport for the population.

It’s not just the railway industry that should be subsidised either, Over the last ten years, funding for bus companies in the UK has been slashed by government, from council contracted services to remuneration for pensioner passes and this has seen massive cuts to bus timetables and service provision

If you met me personally you wouldn’t describe me as having a bad attitude. I enjoy my job, and I’m extremely passionate about the railway and it’s value to those who use it. However, I am extremely confident that passengers will return to the railway after the occasional strike which is currently less than three days for every month.

This is all very well and good and I think that you're 100% entitled to all of the above opinions. However, what I was accusing you of was sharing, encouraging or reinforcing the hubris that many segments of the industry have at management level which has undoubtedly contributed to the current situation.

You can argue for more and more public funding and in general that's something that I would support. However I think that also it fundamentally undermines that argument if you don't spend the money you already have in the most efficient way possible.

 

[Fokx]

You can argue for more and more public funding and in general that's something that I would support. However I think that also it fundamentally undermines that argument if you don't spend the money you already have in the most efficient way possible.

And that’s something I totally agree with, but compromises must be made on both sides of the table which is not happening currently.

The DfT have came in extremely strong with their demands and there’s no possible way that the RMT union can agree to them in any shape or form, because every single member is affected negatively, some roles more than others. However, at the same time nothing is being done to address areas of the industry that are quite literally burning cash such as leasing costs, train crew taxis, Offices rented across the UK whilst station owned buildings lie empty, barriered stations not being manned for the majority of the day and weekends (Dewsbury, St Helens Central, Euston) etc etc

Personally I’m open to change on the railway, but there has to be a benefit to me as an employee, as that’s the job I chose to work in and that’s the contract I signed. If my conditions are anywhere near what has been proposed for Conductors by the DfT ‘modernisation’ proposals, then I will be handing my resignation in and I know I’m not the only one.

I’d agree to DCO but not DOO. I’d happily stick to my current 2020 salary without a pay rise for a decrease in hours rather than the proposed increase, and as a result would be more likely to pick up overtime if offered. I’d sell my Sundays for a fair price or work more late/overnight shifts if it meant less conflicting early shifts a week later.