Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[43096]

I’d agree to DCO but not DOO. I’d happily stick to my current 2020 salary without a pay rise for a decrease in hours rather than the proposed increase, and as a result would be more likely to pick up overtime if offered. I’d sell my Sundays for a fair price or work more late/overnight shifts if it meant less conflicting early shifts a week later.

I’ve never heard of anyone being OK with DCO and not DOO, as the difference is marginal. For drivers they are all but the same, as it means drivers control the doors - with the PTI responsibility that goes with it.

 

[Starmill]

And that’s something I totally agree with, but compromises must be made on both sides of the table which is not happening currently.

The DfT have came in extremely strong with their demands and there’s no possible way that the RMT union can agree to them in any shape or form, because every single member is affected negatively, some roles more than others. However, at the same time nothing is being done to address areas of the industry that are quite literally burning cash such as leasing costs, train crew taxis, Offices rented across the UK whilst station owned buildings lie empty, barriered stations not being manned for the majority of the day and weekends (Dewsbury, St Helens Central, Euston) etc etc

Personally I’m open to change on the railway, but there has to be a benefit to me as an employee, as that’s the job I chose to work in and that’s the contract I signed. If my conditions are anywhere near what has been proposed for Conductors by the DfT ‘modernisation’ proposals, then I will be handing my resignation in and I know I’m not the only one.

I’d agree to DCO but not DOO. I’d happily stick to my current 2020 salary without a pay rise for a decrease in hours rather than the proposed increase, and as a result would be more likely to pick up overtime if offered. I’d sell my Sundays for a fair price or work more late/overnight shifts if it meant less conflicting early shifts a week later.

You said:

You’ll be back at some point, passengers always do.

This, fundamentally, is not correct. Taking passengers for granted is one of the causes of the current crisis. There isn't some kind of 'room for compromise' in that.

 

[Falcon1200]

I’d happily bet it on it. Discretionary it may be, but at some point, nearly all of the population has to travel by train in their life, even if it’s just once in a blue moon.

You make some very valid points, but I cannot agree with this one; Most of my neighbours simply never, ever use the train, nor indeed does my daughter; No stranger to rail growing up as we travelled extensively by train thanks to my staff passes, but now she has a car, she drives, everywhere; Cheaper and more convenient.

I understand why staff are so concerned about the proposed changes to conditions, but I do not see, given the huge gulf between the Unions and Management/Government, how the situation can be resolved and the railway return to some form of normality.

 

[Smidster]

The level of exceptionalism demonstrated by some is akin to those complaining about increases to customs checks caused by Brexit.

There must be a compromise here - Surely the RMT acknowledge that their "demands" are not all going to be met - When average pay settlements are running at 4% and the average award from the Public Sector PRBs was 4.5% - 5% it is just not realistic to still be saying that you, and you alone, should get so much more - especially after all that was spent over the last two years (and jobs retained) keeping the operation going.

I also think it is wrong (and dangerous) to think that it is OK to strike indefinitely on the basis of we can do whatever the heck we like as the suckers will come back" - Many won't have a choice in the matter if they don't have alternative transport for whatever reason but others do have a choice and will use it and indeed going forward those alternatives may become more and more viable for people (e.g. e-bikes) especially as the railway becomes more and more expensive and frankly out of reach of people. On the business side of the market the last two yeas have shown that business can continue with other options and when your service becomes so unreliable that you can't plan week to week because of which group of people might be on strike this week then those businesses just think "what is the point?" and give up as well.

Treat your customers with disdain / walking wallets for long enough and they won't be your customers anymore.

 

[Goldfish62]

The whole purpose of strike action is to inflict sufficient financial damage on a company that it's better to accede to union demands than let continued strike action impact on the company's future viability.

Those claiming that passengers will all return are essentially saying the DfT, NR and the TOCs can sit it out indefinitely because no long term damage to the industry will be inflicted.

 

[Vespa]

Very obviously that isn’t what’s being proposed here. Unlike you I actually work in the industry. I know a lot of RMT members, I know why they’re striking and it’s nothing to do with “blindly following the union”, as you insultingly put it. They are not idiots: none of them are expecting even a deal to match inflation. However they want to avoid Covid etc. being used as an excuse to drive through a load of nasties in terms of permanent Ts and Cs changes.



Surely it’s obvious? It entirely depends what else is bundled in. It isn’t just about pay. How many more times does that need to be spelt out? Again, as a union rep, you should surely understand that.

Personally I’d be very disappointed if ASLEF accepted a “no compulsory redundancies” guarantee as part of an offer to drivers, as it is irrelevant to the grade and would no doubt be used as an excuse to water down something that would be more beneficial. The RMT is in a different position of course, but the redundancies issue is still only one objective.



Irrelevant. Joe Public aren’t RMT members.



Not quite sure what makes you such an expert on the railway industry that you know more than a union that has been operating in the sector for over a century?

The RMTs members are already well and truly in the firing line. Taking industrial action is not likely to lead to *worse* outcomes. Employers don’t tend to say “we will give you a decent pay rise and guarantee of no redundancies” as a reward for not striking!

Your advice would be what: just roll over and accept a massive real terms pay increase and wholesale changes to Ts and Cs because this is “unwinnable”? That attitude has worked so well for the public sector. It’s simply not going to happen on the railway.



Including the the RMT who, at least on the railway, are one of the most effective unions and have done a far better job for their members than the wider public sector unions.



They could theoretically sue for damages but would never do so, simply because the cost of taking action would rapidly equal or exceed the amount being claimed.

If employers need to threaten court action to prevent employees leaving, that would also suggest they had their priorities somewhat wrong.



Feel free not to then.



As you said to someone upthread: if you don’t like it, don’t read it! This dispute isn’t about you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2022 ==


That comment speaks volumes about the way you view railway staff. God forbid anyone dares to earn above minimum wage…

That comment speaks volumes about the way you view railway staff. God forbid anyone dares to earn above minimum wage…

I never said it was wrong to earn above minimum wage at any point, I earn above minimum wage myself, you're imposing your viewpoint and coming up with the wrong conclusion.

 

[ar10642]

Feel free not to then.

And here is the railway's, or more specifically the staff's attitude in a nutshell. You couldn't care less about the people who you are supposed to be providing a service to. Well, don't expect too much sympathy when the axe inevitably comes swinging then.

 

[Mag_seven]

The whole purpose of strike action is to inflict sufficient financial damage on a company that it's better to accede to union demands than let continued strike action impact on the company's future viability.

Those claiming that passengers will all return are essentially saying the DfT, NR and the TOCs can sit it out indefinitely because no long term damage to the industry will be inflicted.

Don't forget its not just passengers who may never return if the NR strikes continue - a lot of rail freight could be lost to the roads forever.

 

[ar10642]

As you said to someone upthread: if you don’t like it, don’t read it! This dispute isn’t about you.

This affects journeys I would otherwise make and we're all forced to pay for the railway whether we use it or not, so I won't be silenced by you because you don't like what I have to say, sorry.

 

[Moonshot]

Just a reminder.....strikes on Wednesday. The advice is do not travel. I myself would prefer strikes on a Saturday, but it is what it is.

 

[XIX7007177]

What “efficiencies” are being forced on the public sector for their pay rises?

 

[dk1]

Just a reminder.....strikes on Wednesday. The advice is do not travel. I myself would prefer strikes on a Saturday, but it is what it is.

You've got strikes on Saturday too this week in many areas.

 

[Watershed]

They could theoretically sue for damages but would never do so, simply because the cost of taking action would rapidly equal or exceed the amount being claimed.

I really doubt that. We could potentially be talking about thousands of pounds of damage. Possibly into the five figures in a particularly 'serious' example. There's no way it would cost that much to recover the losses.

If employers need to threaten court action to prevent employees leaving, that would also suggest they had their priorities somewhat wrong.

A notice period is meaningless if there isn't a consequence as a result of breaching it.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't forget its not just passengers who may never return if the NR strikes continue - a lot of rail freight could be lost to the roads forever.

Absolutely - and potential new freight customers who are now put off from shifting from road to rail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The whole purpose of strike action is to inflict sufficient financial damage on a company that it's better to accede to union demands than let continued strike action impact on the company's future viability.

So if the strike action is to inflict financial damage on a "company of last resort" with funding from the Government, it will be seen as something of a political threat and akin to "biting the hand that feeds you". Governments of any political hue cannot be "brought to heel" by a trades union in the manner that you suggest without the Government taking reciprocal action as the paymaster of "company of last resort".

 

[Moonshot]

Absolutely - and potential new freight customers who are now put off from shifting from road to rail.

It's of no concern to the Unions , who are only acting in the interests of members. I personally see strikes continuing indefinitely. That's the reality.

 

[ar10642]

It's of no concern to the Unions , who are only acting in the interests of members. I personally see strikes continuing indefinitely. That's the reality.

So the union members expect to have substantial pay rises and jobs protected whilst driving away its customers because they are of "no concern". Good luck with that.

 

[Moonshot]

So the union members expect to have substantial pay rises and jobs protected whilst driving away its customers because they are of "no concern". Good luck with that.

Customers do not get driven away. They just shrug there shoulders and get on the train when it's available.

 

[ar10642]

Customers do not get driven away. They just shrug there shoulders and get on the train when it's available.

Cars are a thing.

 

[43066]

And here is the railway's, or more specifically the staff's attitude in a nutshell. You couldn't care less about the people who you are supposed to be providing a service to. Well, don't expect too much sympathy when the axe inevitably comes swinging then.

That’s a complete misrepresentation of what I’ve said. From your posts last night you appear to think it’s the job of rail staff on here to bow and scrape and plead with you not to leave? It really isn’t. You’re just one individual on an anonymous Internet forum and it sounds like you hardly use it already! So that’s no great loss. Do I care more about my own pay and Ts and Cs than I do passengers? You bet I do.

As for “the axe coming swinging”. I don’t doubt for one second that’s what you’d like to see. No one is asking for your sympathy as far as I can see? Just don’t be surprised when you get no sympathy back the other way.

This affects journeys I would otherwise make and we're all forced to pay for the railway whether we use it or not, so I won't be silenced by you because you don't like what I have to say, sorry.

Despite posting on here for months you appear to have gained absolutely no insight or understanding of the problems facing the industry, and continue just to lash out at the staff and unions. For that reason your opinions lack credibility.

Who exactly is silencing you? You can vote how you want. You’ll still be paying taxes, though. Moaning abont railway staff on here won’t change that.

I would query:

I've been telling myself that it's worth paying a lot extra to take the train to work so I don't have to concentrate but I tried driving on my last trip to work. It was an 30 mins quicker door to door each way and £23 less all in.

If the car is cheaper and easier, why you have ever used the railway?! Perhaps you should review your own decision making.

I really doubt that. We could potentially be talking about thousands of pounds of damage. Possibly into the five figures in a particularly 'serious' example. There's no way it would cost that much to recover the losses.

It very much depends who they use. Then of course there’s the question of enforcement ie what if the person hasn’t got any money. It also doesn’t have great “optics” - a large company pursuing modestly paid personnel for trifling (to them) amounts of money. It rather smacks of vexatious litigation and an inappropriate use of the legal process.

Would you want to work for a company who tied people into unusually long notice periods and then pursued then through the courts for daring to leave?

A notice period is meaningless if there isn't a consequence as a result of breaching it.

And they are largely meaningless in the context we are discussing, yes.

 

[ar10642]

That’s a complete misrepresentation of what I’ve said. From your posts last night you appear to think it’s the job of rail staff on here to bow and scrape and plead with you not to leave? It really isn’t. You’re just one individual on an anonymous Internet forum and it sounds like you hardly use it already! So that’s no great loss. Do I care more about my own pay and Ts and Cs than I do passengers? You bet I do.

No it isn't, but I get pretty annoyed when I see staff pontificating on here about how to make the service as useless as possible for as long as possible, which is what plenty of staff have been doing. When would be passengers point out that they shouldn't be taken for granted, the answer is "go away" basically. Not good enough. A private company behaving like this would be out of business.

As for “the axe coming swinging”. I don’t doubt for one second that’s what you’d like to see. No one is asking for your sympathy as far as I can see? Just don’t be surprised when you get no sympathy back the other way.

It absolutely is not. I want the railway to be a dependable alternative to having to drive everywhere for everything. The combination of ridiculous prices and constant strikes and a couldn't care less attitude from the staff mean it's never going to be that. I don't need sympathy, I'll just take the car instead.

Despite posting on here for months you appear to have gained absolutely no insight or understanding of the problems facing the industry, and continue just to lash out at the staff and unions. For that reason your opinions lack credibility.

The problems facing the industry appear to be:

1. You want a pay rise
2. You want no changes to any working practices ever

That's about it isn't it?

If the car is cheaper and easier, why you have ever used the railway?! Perhaps you should review your own decision making.

More marketing from the railway from its caring staff here I see. It's nice not to have to concentrate for a couple of hours, I already said. But not if the railway is going to be not available for extended periods of time.

 

[Moonshot]

Cars are a thing.

It is for the vast majority of journeys Trains are an irrelevance for a large percentage of the UK population.

 

[irish_rail]

And here is the railway's, or more specifically the staff's attitude in a nutshell. You couldn't care less about the people who you are supposed to be providing a service to. Well, don't expect too much sympathy when the axe inevitably comes swinging thethen

Axe swinging in? Are you having a laugh?!! The trains are packed. Fact. OK so a few commuter services to London will probably be replaced by leisure trains, but there is zero chance of an axe falling on the railway or the vast majority of operational staff for that matter. And as for cars? Fewer and fewer young people learning to drive , cars are going to get less not more numerous in the coming years.

 

[Watershed]

It very much depends who they use. Then of course there’s the question of enforcement ie what if the person hasn’t got any money.

Of course you can't get blood out of a stone. But it seems fairly unlikely for someone to resign without working their notice period and not move to another role, likely at least as well paid as their current one.

It also doesn’t have great “optics” - a large company pursuing modestly paid personnel for trifling (to them) amounts of money. It rather smacks of vexatious litigation and an inappropriate use of the legal process.

Hardly so. Modestly paid? Perhaps some staff would come into that category but the vast majority of people affected by the proposed 6 month notice period will be earning more than the median salary, quite a lot more in some cases.

And if there is real reason for the long notice period, you'd expert there to be damages if it's breached! So it's the polar opposite of vexatious litigation.

And they are largely meaningless in the context we are discussing, yes.

If they were meaningless then why are people upset about the proposed increase in notice period? That doesn't add up.

 

[43066]

No it isn't, but I get pretty annoyed when I see staff pontificating on here about how to make the service as useless as possible for as long as possible

But that’s a ludicrous way of looking at it. You appear to view this as some kind of conspiracy theory to attack passengers. It is not. It’s an industrial dispute between employees (via their trade union) and employer.

Nobody enjoys going on strike (it costs a great deal of money) and nobody enjoys annoying passengers - just ask my guard colleagues who are the ones who get spat at and assaulted.

As for “pontificating” - has it occurred to you that people are genuinely worried and in fear of their futures? If anyone has a right to be annoyed it is them. They also get annoyed by enthusiasts, who have no skin in the game other than being inconvenienced, criticising and baying for DOO, comparing their pay to nurses etc.

All of the above has been pointed out to you many times, yet you seem not to acknowledged it and just keep repeating the same attacks?

Axe swinging in? Are you having a laugh?!! The trains are packed. Fact. OK so a few commuter services to London will probably be replaced by leisure trains, but there is zero chance of an axe falling on the railway or the vast majority of operational staff for that matter. And as for cars? Fewer and fewer young people learning to drive , cars are going to get less not more numerous in the coming years.

I was on a train on your patch yesterday. Between Reading the London it was like being on a (pre Covid) rush hour tube train. Enormous numbers travelling from the West Country.

I was at Paddington on Saturday for an hour or so (admittedly there was disruption), again massive volumes passing through the station.

 

[baz962]

But that’s a ludicrous way of looking at it. You appear to view this as some kind of conspiracy theory to attack passengers. It is not. It’s an industrial dispute between employees (via their trade union) and employer.

Nobody enjoys going on strike (it costs a great deal of money) and nobody enjoys annoying passengers - just ask my guard colleagues who are the ones who get spat at and assaulted.

As for “pontificating” - has it occurred to you that people are genuinely worried and in fear of their futures? If anyone has a right to be annoyed it is them. They also get annoyed by enthusiasts, who have no skin in the game other than being inconvenienced, criticising and baying for DOO, comparing their pay to nurses etc.

All of the above has been pointed out to you many times, yet you seem not to acknowledged it and just keep repeating the same attacks?



I was on a train on your patch yesterday. Between Reading the London it was like being on a (pre Covid) rush hour tube train. Enormous numbers travelling from the West Country.

I was at Paddington on Saturday (admittedly there was disruption), again massive volumes.

You should of seen people crammed on ours this last week. Absolutely packed.

 

[ar10642]

But that’s a ludicrous way of looking at it. You appear to view this as some kind of conspiracy theory to attack passengers. It is not. It’s an industrial dispute between employees (via their trade union) and employer.

What difference does it make to passengers? The train's either working or it's not. I don't really care about the internal squabbles.

Nobody enjoys going on strike (it costs a great deal of money) and nobody enjoys annoying passengers - just ask my guard colleagues who are the ones who get spat at and assaulted.

For an industry that doesn't enjoy going on strike, it sure goes on a lot of strikes.

 

[Bald Rick]

The CEO of Network Rail has just saw a salary increase of 6.5% after telling workers to accept worse conditions for a pay increase of 4% not too long ago (That’s an increase of £36,000 to £590,000).

I think you need to check your facts there before writing things that are untrue.

but there is zero chance of an axe falling on the railway or the vast majority of operational staff for that matter.

I can confirm there is a non-zero chance.

 

[43066]

What difference does it make to passengers? The train's either working or it's not. I don't really care about the internal squabbles.

How many more times - this is a thread about an industrial dispute. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PASSENGERS.

I don’t really care whether you continue to use the railway or not!

For an industry that doesn't enjoy going on strike, it sure goes on a lot of strikes.

I get the sense I’m wasting my breath here…

 

[exbrel]

Don’t believe that for one minute. I’ve been on the railways for almost 38 years & been interested in it much longer than that. In that time passengers have been treated with contempt through strikes & everything else you could possibly shake a stick at. To my amazement they always come back & bring their uncle, sister & great great nephew with them too. Always works itself out as they have very very short memories. Sounds complacent but it’s true.

that may have been true a few years ago, people were use to traveling by train, but this generation couldn't care less about the railways, they all have cars or most of them do, its more convenient. My daughter is the same, its all car, on a recent holiday she went on a train whilst there and "this is great" she also caught a bus and "this is great", but when i asked her if she would use either again when we returned home, "no the cars sitting there why bother".
The longer the strikes go on, the more people will lose interest in the railways, say you were taking the family for a day out, and all that involved, before covid great, everything running to time etc, now before the strikes like everything else you were not sure how late or even if the train would run.
You might get your rise, and conditions you want, but at what cost in the future? fares rises, less pax's, over staffing, then what?
Freight, look how the shops are closing because of online shopping, road transport has increased to cope with the demand local and long distant...
As you say i to have been interested in the railways, started 68yrs ago, worked on the railways for 28yrs, but nowadays i worry for its future...