Brexit matters

[reddragon]

The process of becoming a UK citizen for an EU citizen isn't exactly easy either!

You first had to apply for a citizen card, £65 thank you after filling in a lengthy form. You then need to apply for settled status by proving that you have worked here, lived here, paid tax here and not spent too long out of the UK. Well that put pay to a few thousand EU lorry drivers who'd lived here for many years who despite living & working here for near on 20 years with a UK family broke the rules due to driving a HGV for this country to/from the EU too many days. Oops.

Then you have to fill in a very long form to apply for settled status and pay a growingly inflated fee, £1350 last time I checked and that requires an appointment with a biometric centre (not available for 2 years due to covid) just to start. Then you have to pass a test, requiring the purchase of books, test papers etc, yes another £100. I tried the test as a life long Englishman. I still cannot pass it because despite my wide general knowledge, and being great at quizzes my interests do not align with the subject matters chosen. Oops!

So I pass, phew, maybe after a few goes at a fee for each, then the detailed form is required detailing every trip I have made in the last 5 years, so yes you need to record these & keep the evidence for 5 years so to prove that you have not been out of the country for 90 days over 2/3 years or whatever it is now. Come on, if you live, work & pay tax only in the UK why is this SO critical and why would an EU citizen want to forgo visiting their families?

So then you jump all these hurdles, have no more than a speeding ticket and you are approved.

Then you need to take a whole day off, travel to & pay to go to a ceremony to give your loyalty to the Queen? Err maybe to the country by paying your taxes but that's it!

Finally you pay for that golden UK passport and they misplace your EU ID which you need to fork out to replace too.

In reality it takes 2 years and about £2000 to do this. A lot of hassle for minimal gain.

I've applied to be a EU citizen, paid my 400 Euros & an agent is doing the biz. Then I can travel freely and laugh at all the Brexiteers stuck in the good ole UK

 

[SynthD]

Never seen a news report about it, but I know.

It is exactly the sort of thing that would be reported if it were real because we have so much media interested in wedge issues and nationalism.

Consider how much the opposite is true, how people in non English speaking countries need to learn English for many jobs and sectors.

 

[AlterEgo]

Absolutely agree with you. As a quid pro quo perhaps we will see a large scale expulsion of British immigrants from Spain, France etc. If they can't be bothered to get citizenship of their host country.

Who apart from them would even care?

 

[jon0844]

Analogies only work so far. With an actual divorce, both sides are likely to have huge emotional issues arising from whatever issues broke down the marriage/their feelings of betrayal/any hurt that came from any sexual infidelities/etc. Because divorce is such a personal thing that profoundly affects someone's personal life.

While you're right that analogies don't always work, in the case of this divorce - you actually have a couple that were likely quite happy with each other and didn't consider there to be many problems worth worrying about - but then all of a sudden people around them started to say loads of things about their marriage and started to suggest they break up, giving loads of reasons they'd never considered, and promising how great things would be if they split.

That to me is Brexit in a nutshell. The EU wasn't high on anyone's list of concerns before the referendum, then the risk of a split in the Tories led to it being brought to the forefront like everything bad that's ever happened was down to our relationship with Europe.

Only key difference is that here it's the UK that cared so much, and still has to keep a close eye on everything the EU does every day, whereas the EU was never that bothered and it's business as usual. I can't see that the EU is actively stalking the UK and caring too much how we're doing since the split.

 

[GS250]

That to me is Brexit in a nutshell. The EU wasn't high on anyone's list of concerns before the referendum, then the risk of a split in the Tories led to it being brought to the forefront like everything bad that's ever happened was down to our relationship with Europe.

Only key difference is that here it's the UK that cared so much, and still has to keep a close eye on everything the EU does every day, whereas the EU was never that bothered and it's business as usual. I can't see that the EU is actively stalking the UK and caring too much how we're doing since the split.

Not so sure. As I've said elsewhere, UKIP polled around 13% during the 2015 referendum. The Conservatives returned with a majority, partially because they promised a referendum. Rightly or wrongly, anti-EU sentiment was quietly burning away beneath the surface at an alarmingly high rate. Those who frequent wine bars in the big cities would have been absolutely blind to the thoughts of those who drink in pubs in the provincial and rural areas. Whenever I visited the provinces and got into conversation with locals (a benefit of following a football team around the country)...there was a very anti-EU sentiment building up from about 2008 on.

I think the fact it took the establishment by complete surprise says more about them than those who were anti-EU.

 

[RT4038]

Consider how much the opposite is true, how people in non English speaking countries need to learn English for many jobs and sectors.

It is, but unfortunately in a Brexit vote they don't cancel each other out.

That to me is Brexit in a nutshell. The EU wasn't high on anyone's list of concerns before the referendum, then the risk of a split in the Tories led to it being brought to the forefront like everything bad that's ever happened was down to our relationship with Europe.

It wasn't high on everybody's list (I don't agree that it wasn't high on anyone's - it wouldn't have risked splitting the Conservative Party if that was true) , but it was always there on the list. Membership of the EU was never something that everyone loved or felt warm about. Like many marriages it evolved and the people's representatives made decisions and accepted compromises which started to get out of synch with the people. Quite possibly in the people's best interest, but the people were not carried along ('all too complicated to explain'). Then certain sections of the people started to feel threatened (different manifestations but same bottom line) and started pointing out all sorts of things that had only been vaguely considered before and the rest is history. Plenty of mud being slung [ everything wrong with our relationship with the EU is the UK Govt. fault vs. everything wrong in the UK is the fault of the EU, and plenty in between].

And it split the country right down the middle - not along party political or class lines or anything like that. Quite possibly a vent at anything and everything (related to the EU or not). People vote for all sorts of reasons, rational and irrational.

The UK has left the EU. The relationship will always be different now. No point in the blame game or starting vendettas - better to learn from the mistakes, look forward and chart our own course and future relationship with the EU and others.

The process of becoming a UK citizen for an EU citizen isn't exactly easy either!

You first had to apply for a citizen card, £65 thank you after filling in a lengthy form. You then need to apply for settled status by proving that you have worked here, lived here, paid tax here and not spent too long out of the UK. Well that put pay to a few thousand EU lorry drivers who'd lived here for many years who despite living & working here for near on 20 years with a UK family broke the rules due to driving a HGV for this country to/from the EU too many days. Oops.

Then you have to fill in a very long form to apply for settled status and pay a growingly inflated fee, £1350 last time I checked and that requires an appointment with a biometric centre (not available for 2 years due to covid) just to start. Then you have to pass a test, requiring the purchase of books, test papers etc, yes another £100. I tried the test as a life long Englishman. I still cannot pass it because despite my wide general knowledge, and being great at quizzes my interests do not align with the subject matters chosen. Oops!

So I pass, phew, maybe after a few goes at a fee for each, then the detailed form is required detailing every trip I have made in the last 5 years, so yes you need to record these & keep the evidence for 5 years so to prove that you have not been out of the country for 90 days over 2/3 years or whatever it is now. Come on, if you live, work & pay tax only in the UK why is this SO critical and why would an EU citizen want to forgo visiting their families?

So then you jump all these hurdles, have no more than a speeding ticket and you are approved.

Then you need to take a whole day off, travel to & pay to go to a ceremony to give your loyalty to the Queen? Err maybe to the country by paying your taxes but that's it!

Finally you pay for that golden UK passport and they misplace your EU ID which you need to fork out to replace too.

In reality it takes 2 years and about £2000 to do this. A lot of hassle for minimal gain.

I've applied to be a EU citizen, paid my 400 Euros & an agent is doing the biz. Then I can travel freely and laugh at all the Brexiteers stuck in the good ole UK

In these circumstances you don't have to become a UK citizen. It is not designed to be easy. If you don't like the costs, the qualifying tests or the allegiance by all means apply for the citizenship of somewhere else. If you see UK citizenship as 'minimal gain' then so be it - but don't be upset that life living here is that little more difficult and uncertain than that of a citizen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

Not so sure. As I've said elsewhere, UKIP polled around 13% during the 2015 referendum. The Conservatives returned with a majority, partially because they promised a referendum. Rightly or wrongly, anti-EU sentiment was quietly burning away beneath the surface at an alarmingly high rate. Those who frequent wine bars in the big cities would have been absolutely blind to the thoughts of those who drink in pubs in the provincial and rural areas. Whenever I visited the provinces and got into conversation with locals (a benefit of following a football team around the country)...there was a very anti-EU sentiment building up from about 2008 on.

I think the fact it took the establishment by complete surprise says more about them than those who were anti-EU.

Quite so.

 

[Cloud Strife]

there was a very anti-EU sentiment building up from about 2008 on.

I would say earlier. It was clear to me from drinking in a dodgy council estate boozer in Chelmsford (our local pub as a student) that there was a huge amount of resentment towards the EU, and that it was hard to find someone who saw the benefits. It's worth stressing that they were fine towards individual foreigners (we had several foreigners in our group who went there regularly, and there was never a bad word said), but the locals saw the EU as being the source of many of their problems.

Part of the problem was that the political classes simply never bothered to talk to them. These were genuinely working-class people, who would work hard during the day and go to the pub at night, but the anti-EU rhetoric was striking home with them. I suspect that they would have been called racists by the urban wine bar drinkers, and maybe they were, but they weren't bad people at heart. They were genuinely worried about immigration, and I remember one of them (a truck driver) giving me strong arguments as to why EU immigration had wrecked trucking. The arguments were solid: for instance, truckers from the 2004 accession countries were quite happy to stay on the road for several weeks at a time, and they would cook everything themselves. The bosses had cut the meal allowances for the rest of them as a result, because "that lot don't need meals, neither do you".

I remember we had one idiot threaten one of my housemates on the street, and when we told the landlord, he knew exactly who it was from the description. Ten minutes later, the landlord had got his mother's number from one of the locals, and he phoned the mother to tell her to pass the message on that Brian wasn't having any of his nonsense and that he could come and apologise to my housemate. 15 minutes later, the lad walks in, apologises and buys my housemate a drink. That was the kind of pub it was, the locals were simple folk who worked hard, liked a pint and football, and they had a lot of concerns that were going unanswered.

I asked them once if they'd ever seen any politicians come in for a drink, and they said that the local councillor wouldn't be seen dead in the place. I'm not surprised that the Establishment didn't see it coming, because they simply didn't bother to talk to the ordinary people on the ground.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

Who apart from them would even care?

I would, always fancied a nice cheap Spanish property!

 

[edwin_m]

I would say earlier. It was clear to me from drinking in a dodgy council estate boozer in Chelmsford (our local pub as a student) that there was a huge amount of resentment towards the EU, and that it was hard to find someone who saw the benefits. It's worth stressing that they were fine towards individual foreigners (we had several foreigners in our group who went there regularly, and there was never a bad word said), but the locals saw the EU as being the source of many of their problems.

I'd say this was very much about the attitude of certain politicians and much of the press blaming the EU for problems that could largely be laid at the door of the UK government. This became prominent in the 2016 campaign but was rumbling on for many years before. It also made it difficult for politicians supporting Remain to say "this is why it's not perfect but it's better than the alternative" - which in any case doesn't play too well against the sort of arguments Leave was making.

 

[GS250]

I asked them once if they'd ever seen any politicians come in for a drink, and they said that the local councillor wouldn't be seen dead in the place. I'm not surprised that the Establishment didn't see it coming, because they simply didn't bother to talk to the ordinary people on the ground.

Totally different situation to that of the leafy, affluent part of Ealing where I work. The locals were so self absorbed in their own bubble that they were in complete shock when the result came through. To them the EU meant the freedom to purchase properties and spend a few weeks of the year in their holiday home in the South of France. It meant a never ending supply of cheap labour to do those jobs that their social circles would never dream of doing. High levels of immigration meant that their portfolio of properties in the UK would remain over valued. They live in a parallel universe really. However, like those who you described, they weren't bad people and generally wanted to do good. Woolly and naive maybe.

On the night of the referendum, a number of teachers and parents where I work held a 'remain victory' drink at an overpriced gastro type pub in Ealing. One of them even got up to make a speech and I quote as it was recorded and sent to me via whatsapp "the good people of Middle England will come out in their droves and give the remain cause a massive 60%+ victory. The European project can then steam ahead and we can be part of a fully federal Europe".

Those same people were in a state of shock the next day. Literally unable to take lessons or see reason. Any attempts to try to explain what people were thinking in the rest of the country simply didn't register. The 'liberal' 'educated' and 'well to do' had become toxic and very illiberal.

 

[najaB]

It's worth stressing that they were fine towards individual foreigners (we had several foreigners in our group who went there regularly, and there was never a bad word said), but the locals saw the EU as being the source of many of their problems.

Then the disaster capitalists did a good job of conning people into voting against their own self-interests.

 

[GS250]

Then the disaster capitalists did a good job of conning people into voting against their own self-interests.

Like my brother who had his first decent wage rise for over ten years? As a professional driver wages had stalled as soon as his company started to employee EU workers from 2008 on. Lo and behold with the exodus of EU workers and offers of employment elsewhere, they gave all of their front line staff a hefty increase in salary.

Swings and roundabouts etc.

 

[RT4038]

Then the disaster capitalists did a good job of conning people into voting against their own self-interests.

And the Remainers did a not so good job at convincing them otherwise!

 

[duncanp]

Totally different situation to that of the leafy, affluent part of Ealing where I work. The locals were so self absorbed in their own bubble that they were in complete shock when the result came through. To them the EU meant the freedom to purchase properties and spend a few weeks of the year in their holiday home in the South of France. It meant a never ending supply of cheap labour to do those jobs that their social circles would never dream of doing. High levels of immigration meant that their portfolio of properties in the UK would remain over valued. They live in a parallel universe really. However, like those who you described, they weren't bad people and generally wanted to do good. Woolly and naive maybe.

On the night of the referendum, a number of teachers and parents where I work held a 'remain victory' drink at an overpriced gastro type pub in Ealing. One of them even got up to make a speech and I quote as it was recorded and sent to me via whatsapp "the good people of Middle England will come out in their droves and give the remain cause a massive 60%+ victory. The European project can then steam ahead and we can be part of a fully federal Europe".

Those same people were in a state of shock the next day. Literally unable to take lessons or see reason. Any attempts to try to explain what people were thinking in the rest of the country simply didn't register. The 'liberal' 'educated' and 'well to do' had become toxic and very illiberal.

There are striking similarities between the reasons why the UK voted to leave the EU in 2016, and why Donald Trump was elected US president later that year.

Indeed it may well be that the referendum result in the UK influenced the result of the presidential election in the US.

The American filmmaker Michael Moore was one person who warned that Donald Trump might possibly win, and the liberal left establishment in California, Washington DC and New York pooh poohed up.

I urge anyone with an interest in the subject to look at Michael Moore's films Michael Moore in Trumpland and Fahrenheit 11/9. They paint a picture of disaffected voters in the rust belt states of the MidWest who voted for Donald Trump in order to send a big "f*** you" message to those politicians who they felt were ignoring.

It is the failure of the establishment to listen to the concerns of people in places like a council estate pub in Chelmsford that led to the 2016 referendum result, and arugably the result of the 2019 general election.

Those who would want the UK to have a closer relationship with the EU, or even to rejoin it, need to address the concerns of such people if they want to change public opinion in their favour.

 

[najaB]

Like my brother who had his first decent wage rise for over ten years? As a professional driver wages had stalled as soon as his company started to employee EU workers from 2008 on. Lo and behold with the exodus of EU workers and offers of employment elsewhere, they gave all of their front line staff a hefty increase in salary.

Strange then that there were also driver shortages and consequent large increases in salary globally.

International Road Transport Union’s (IRU) annual driver shortage survey shows unfilled commercial driver positions continue to increase at alarming rates.

The survey found that truck driver shortages increased by 42 per cent from 2020 to 2021, with open unfilled driver positions reaching 71,000 in Romania, 80,000 in both Poland and Germany, and 100,000 in the UK.

In Mexico, shortages increased by 30 per cent to reach 54,000 vacancies, and in China by 140 per cent to reach 1.8 million.

IRU survey reveals global driver shortage

IRU's annual driver shortage survey shows unfilled commercial driver positions continue to increase at alarming rates.

www.globaltrailermag.com

It's almost like a pandemic...

 

[GS250]

And the Remainers did a not so good job at convincing them otherwise!

The remain campaign did itself no favours at all. The bourgeois attitudes and condescending approach simply alienated many from the working class who based their decision to vote on who they didn't want to back.

For many, the apparitions of Eddie Izzard, Bob Geldof, Tony Blair etc was the final straw.

 

[alex397]

Lots of stereotypes here of Remainers being middle classes drinking in wine bars, and Leavers being council estate dwellers drinking in a pub. Of course, there’s some truth in some stereotypes, but out of the people I know there are Remainers from both ‘working class’ and ‘middle class’, and likewise for Leavers.

I’m also not sure why the Remainers are seen as ‘The Establishment’. Sure, some certainly are, but people like Rees-Mogg, Farage, Banks, and the current Tory cabinet are all what I’d consider ‘The Establishment’.

One thing I will agree with is that the Remain campaign didn’t highlight the positives of EU membership, enabling the right wing press and disaster capitalists to persuade people that the EU was the root of all their problems.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Strange then that there were also driver shortages and consequent large increases in salary globally.

The problem in Poland at least is related to working conditions: until France and others started clamping down on taking the 'long' fortnightly rest in the cab, they were expected to stay out for up to 6 weeks at a time. One interesting problem was that you often had trucks parked up in the UK until they could find a backload, as UK->Poland freight was much harder to come by than Poland->UK.

In the UK, one major issue related to the working conditions too. For instance, in the US, it's absolutely normal for truckers to pull up to a dock, then sit back with a nice movie and dinner (or whatever) in the cab while they wait to get loaded or unloaded. In the UK, insane self-imposed Health and Safety rules (which are not expected by the HSE!) means that drivers often have to sit for hours in a filthy waiting room with disgusting toilets.

It's not always about money.

It is the failure of the establishment to listen to the concerns of people in places like a council estate pub in Chelmsford that led to the 2016 referendum result, and arugably the result of the 2019 general election.

And likewise the SNP landslides in recent years too. Even the rise of Sinn Fein this year to becoming the first place party in Northern Ireland was arguably down to the DUP's utter failure to listen to their electorate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

I’m also not sure why the Remainers are seen as ‘The Establishment’. Sure, some certainly are, but people like Rees-Mogg, Farage, Banks, and the current Tory cabinet are all what I’d consider ‘The Establishment’.

In my case, the Establishment in the eyes of the local pub dwellers was any politician. They were getting their news from The Sun and the Daily Mail, not from Tessa the Lib Dem or Howard the Tory.

 

[ainsworth74]

I’m also not sure why the Remainers are seen as ‘The Establishment’. Sure, some certainly are, but people like Rees-Mogg, Farage, Banks, and the current Tory cabinet are all what I’d consider ‘The Establishment’.

That's one of the more fascinating aspects of the last few years of politics. How did Nigel Farage, the son of a stock broker and whose career started as a commodities trader come to be seen as anti-Establishment? Or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson whose father worked for organisations like the Word Bank and European Commission, who attended Eton and graduated Oxford and went to work for the Times, Telegraph and Spectator before becoming an MP. Anti-establishment? Or Donald Trump the son of a real estate developer and who went onto join work in the family business as a real estate developer himself before becoming a media personality.

How have these people who are, to my mind, by any reasonable measure deeply entwined with the "establishment" (whatever that actually means) suddenly seen as being "anti-establishment and the working mans hero"? The whole thing is fascinating.

 

[najaB]

They were getting their news from The Sun and the Daily Mail...

Owned and run by a multi-billionaire media mogul (71st richest person in the world) and the 4th Viscount Rothermere respectively. Hard to get more 'establishment' than a freaking Viscount!

 

[Berliner]

Isn't this the same story with citizens from non EU countries though? There appeared to be little sympathy for Canadians, Americans, Australians etc who had worked productively for years but who then fell foul of the 'rules'. Either we change the rules for everyone or not at all. As should other countries. Making exceptions based on geopolitical lines is very wrong. Decisions should be made on an individual basis.

While I am of the opinion that it should be much easier to obtain citizenship of another country in which you're settled, regardless of where you're from, this wasn't anything to do with my post. I was pointing out that that I disagreed with the other poster who felt that you're only considered a temporary visitor or not really part of the country unless you get citizenship of the place you live in. That's a ridiculous view to hold. Its no one else business why someone may or may not apply for citizenship of another country.

There are people out there who hold UK passports who have never set foot in this country. Yet by this logic, they are more a part of the country than a foreigner who's lived here for 20 years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

While I am of the opinion that it should be much easier to obtain citizenship of another country in which you're settled, regardless of where you're from, this wasn't anything to do with my post. I was pointing out that that I disagreed with the other poster who felt that you're only considered a temporary visitor or not really part of the country unless you get citizenship of the place you live in. That's a ridiculous view to hold. Its no one else business why someone may or may not apply for citizenship of another country.

I believe that was me. I think some of the nuance of what I said has been lost in your paraphrasing of it, but that aside, it's not a ridiculous view to hold at all. If you have made a decision that you want to spend the rest of your life in a certain country, and you want to be a part of that country, then why on Earth would you want not to be a citizen of that country? I can well understand someone who wants to become a citizen but feels unable to (for example because their home country doesn't allow dual citizenship, or they can't afford the high naturalisation fees), but for someone to actively choose that they don't want to become a citizen, that is clearly communicating something about how they feel towards that country, and strongly suggests a desire not to want to fully be a part of that country. Of course, it's totally fine for someone to make that choice if that is their wish, but the flip of that is that they probably have to accept that means to some extent, they remain (through their own choice) a guest in that country. And as others have pointed out - it also means they have to accept some risk to their future residential status.

 

[TwoYellas]

If someone is a thoroughly decent, hard working person and they have been here for years and contributed to their community; then they shouldn't be made to up sticks and leave causing them much distress and upheaval. No matter the oversight/mistake/change of rules etc.

In fact local communities have stood up to prevent such removals and I believe more people should. Also, I'd never refer to anyone as a 'guest' and receiving 'hospitality' just because they happened to be born on another piece of rock - sounds all a bit patronising and 'othering' for my liking as well as divisive.

Something else that is quite distasteful is when people make judgements on other peoples values and loyalty to a piece of rock - all very judgemental and unpleasant. The best citizens don't judge like this, an example - the RNLI that despite the hysteria, just saved humans from drowning.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also, I'd never refer to anyone as a 'guest' and receiving 'hospitality' just because they happened to be born on another piece of rock - sounds all a bit patronising and 'othering' for my liking as well as divisive.

What do you consider yourself when you visit another country? You’re very much a guest, there at that country’s discretion, and bound by their rules.

 

[TwoYellas]

What do you consider yourself when you visit another country? You’re very much a guest, there at that country’s discretion, and bound by their rules.

I was talking in the context of people who has lived and worked somewhere for years. And also as a general criticism of when citizens (who happen by accident of birth) to have longer roots in a country; use terms like 'guest' or 'hospitality'. These terms are usually utilised in a hostile, derogatory and judgemental fashion to someone viewed as an outsider.

 

[najaB]

If you have made a decision that you want to spend the rest of your life in a certain country, and you want to be a part of that country, then why on Earth would you want not to be a citizen of that country?

By the same token, why should they go the hassle and expense if they've been told that they would have exactly the same rights if they do as if they don't. Prior to 2021 becoming a UK citizen provided zero net benefit at substantial cost.

 

[nlogax]

By the same token, why should they go the hassle and expense if they've been told that they would have exactly the same rights if they do as if they don't. Prior to 2021 becoming a UK citizen provided zero net benefit at substantial cost.

Quite. No way in hell would I plump for US citizenship. Green card was enough, thank you.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

By the same token, why should they go the hassle and expense if they've been told that they would have exactly the same rights if they do as if they don't. Prior to 2021 becoming a UK citizen provided zero net benefit at substantial cost.

Do you think that people should only ever do things that directly benefit themselves? To my mind, applying for citizenship is about responsibility: It's about saying that you are making this country your home, and therefore you accept the responsibility of being part of that country, having some loyalty to that country, and accepting that country's values (in the case of the UK, tolerance, democracy, respecting other people of whatever gender/ethnicity/etc.). To my mind, saying, in effect, why should someone do something if it provides zero benefit [to themselves] sounds very much like me-me-me culture.

Having said that, you do have a good point about what EU citizens were told prior to 2016 - particularly given there was a sense then of being an EU citizen. And I agree with you that the substantial cost is an issue. I don't think the Government should be charging anything like the amount that they do for naturalisation.

 

[reddragon]

Do you think that people should only ever do things that directly benefit themselves? To my mind, applying for citizenship is about responsibility: It's about saying that you are making this country your home, and therefore you accept the responsibility of being part of that country, having some loyalty to that country, and accepting that country's values (in the case of the UK, tolerance, democracy, respecting other people of whatever gender/ethnicity/etc.). To my mind, saying, in effect, why should someone do something if it provides zero benefit [to themselves] sounds very much like me-me-me culture.

Having said that, you do have a good point about what EU citizens were told prior to 2016 - particularly given there was a sense then of being an EU citizen. And I agree with you that the substantial cost is an issue. I don't think the Government should be charging anything like the amount that they do for naturalisation.

In the same vein, don't you think that the UK had responsibility to everyone who legally came here or married UK-EU and now have lost many rights, or those who owned property in the EU or those who had no say?

You cannot expect individual responsibility when we have a Government to abdicated from their responsibilities can we?

 

[RT4038]

In the same vein, don't you think that the UK had responsibility to everyone who legally came here or married UK-EU and now have lost many rights, or those who owned property in the EU or those who had no say?

You cannot expect individual responsibility when we have a Government to abdicated from their responsibilities can we?

Yes, the Government has a certain amount of responsibility, which they have discharged with the agreement of schemes (on both sides) that people already legally living in a territory would (subject to furnishing of such proof) continue to live there. Which has been done, subject to the bureaucratic wrangles of any Government scheme. The Government has not abdicated any responsibility in this regard, have they?

There was/is no responsibility on our or any EU Government to grant citizenship to any of these people, except subject to the usual rules applied to applicants.

 

[najaB]

To my mind, applying for citizenship is about responsibility: It's about saying that you are making this country your home, and therefore you accept the responsibility of being part of that country, having some loyalty to that country, and accepting that country's values (in the case of the UK, tolerance, democracy, respecting other people of whatever gender/ethnicity/etc.).

Wait... I thought virtue signalling was a bad thing?