Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[M&NEJ]

Sad but true, whichever way you look at this. But the really worrying thing is that the electorate keeps falling for the idiocy and keeps electing them into office.

This is quite a conundrum about modern society, and perhaps if we could solve this conundrum we might achieve an improvement in society.

But how? Maybe we could start by forcing all those who make decisions about rail services, to be dependent upon those services for their livelihood, in order to give them something better than their present, often very unrealistic perspective?

I don't want to steer the discussion off topic; so maybe there should be (or already is) another thread for this?

But I agree with your comments, and the first thing that comes to mind is: we have a "first past the post" electoral system that enables a minority to gain power every time, not a truly democratic representation of the wider spectrum of society's views.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Are you saying that Mick Lynch has his own agenda?

Not at the start he didn't but with Labour showing an indifference towards their natural voter base over the last few weeks ive noticed him widening the debate into a workers vs the management. He is also very articulate about the wider issues and seems he's naturally gravitating towards leading the wider union movement not by choice but by a necessity of thers not doing so.

Im no union fan and the strikes are bloomin inconvenient to me as i use the railways but the problem we have here is the workers have been squeezed for years and well paid management never take the pain. In this country generally as long as they think things are fair workers and the general populace will share the burden but society has got way out of kilter with how much wealth is now concentrated in so few people.

 

[ashkeba]

I do think there is a lack of understanding amongst the unions about how much, outside of London, using the train is just one option for many people. There is a lack of recognition of market reality.

That sounds like a lack of recognition of how bus services have been gutted outside of London. Many journeys easy by rail, such as Ely to Peterborough, Bury St Eds or Ipswich, have no practical alternative to trains if you are not allowed to drive. These strikes really hurt the regions, which don't have London buses buzzing around every few minutes. But we are also often badly paid and priced out of living in some cities, so I feel there is support for pay keeping up with inflation.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm taking that as a win then.... <draws line in five bar gate>


It isn't, but unless there is a major rethink from Whitehall on how it is run and funded I can see less and less involvement from the private sector in anything other than infrastructure / rolling stock.


Which is why a major rethink is needed, something I think we agree on.


You don't always have to be an insider to see the cultural problems. I know that a lot of people have negative views of the culture of the civil service, many of which do have substance. And reading through these forums as well as being a user of the the rail industry, we non-rail people can have similarly founded criticisms of your industry. Hell we only need to nip onto the National Rail Enquires site and check service disruptions to see how little importance the industry seems to be putting on passengers at the moment.

It reminds me of the scene in Die Hard II where a member of cabin crew on a 'Windsor Air' flight reassures a passenger that they are just like British Rail, they are late having been put in a holding pattern, but they get them there eventually. A few scenes later the blummin' thing is crashed by the terrorists controlling ATC....*

(*Just in case anyone reaches for the keyboard to complain, this is an attempt at humour, probably not to everyone's taste but I am a cynical, 52 year old Yorkshireman...)


I took a punt on the first Leeds train (07:57 ex Skipton) from Shipley this morning (having walked from Baildon as the first one towards Guiseley was at 07:53 connecting @ 08:22 to Leeds, and nothing towards Shipley until 09:41!). As always it was rammed to the hilt, but the majority of Shipley punters were pointed towards the 08:02 from Bradford FS albeit with one minute spare as the 07:57 was 4 late leaving.

But as pointed out above, the first one down from Ilkley wasn't until 09:21 meaning no peaks at all headed towards Bradford FS. I know things started late due to the signaller shifts, but putting nothing on for the first two hours is poor and just another small kick in the nethers for us punters that might actually want to use them.

I'll certainly be complaining to Northern as to why they couldn't run the 8:00 as previously.

 

[Moonshot]

Not at the start he didn't but with Labour showing an indifference towards their natural voter base over the last few weeks ive noticed him widening the debate into a workers vs the management. He is also very articulate about the wider issues and seems he's naturally gravitating towards leading the wider union movement not by choice but by a necessity of thers not doing so.

Im no union fan and the strikes are bloomin inconvenient to me as i use the railways but the problem we have here is the workers have been squeezed for years and well paid management never take the pain. In this country generally as long as they think things are fair workers and the general populace will share the burden but society has got way out of kilter with how much wealth is now concentrated in so few people.

Mick Lynch is well paid ....and isn't taking the pain either.

 

[yorksrob]

That sounds like a lack of recognition of how bus services have been gutted outside of London. Many journeys easy by rail, such as Ely to Peterborough, Bury St Eds or Ipswich, have no practical alternative to trains if you are not allowed to drive. These strikes really hurt the regions, which don't have London buses buzzing around every few minutes. But we are also often badly paid and priced out of living in some cities, so I feel there is support for pay keeping up with inflation.

If I lived in one of the former red wall seats that fell to the Tories, I would be complaining vociferously about the need to get the trains running again. There's little chance of the government listening to anyone else.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thameslink running a Sunday service

the first train out of St Albans left about 1000 people behind. These things happen.

Tlk only running a Sunday service why? Granted it would take a few hours to get normal M-F service up and running and i can see no point running the Grinstead/Littlehampton's/Welwyn's but the industry is losing revenue on strike days and then offering a less than satisfactory service the following day is hardly an incentive for people to make journeys they've already put off.

 

[nuneatonmark]

The Unions are making a great case for the complete privatisation of the rail companies and rail network including a bonfire of current contracts with new contracts which allow a properly resourced 7 day a week railway. Sign this contract or make yourself redundant. Lots of pain the short term maybe but, in the end, the employers win. It's quite funny how the Unions argue for a fully nationalised railway and just when we're moving much closer towards it, remind us how it could be when fully nationalised i.e. the railways holding the country to ransom again. My son-in-law is a firefighter, they have to work 7 days a week, 12 hour shifts, unsocial hours and isn't paid anywhere near as much as the average train driver, for example, because it's a given that it's a 7 day a week job. He does get a fair amount of time off but that's largely related to the fact that he works long shifts. Railway workers need to be paid an appropriate amount, taking into account the flexibility needed in the job, otherwise no one would do the jobs. I am sure part of the problem is the management, it always is, but this action can't do the Labour party any good if you want to get rid of the current bunch of idiots.

 

[43066]

I'm taking that as a win then.... <draws line in five bar gate>

It’s not a win. I learned long ago that repeating the same (wrong) point kinda sucks as a debating tactic - it doesn’t make it any less inaccurate.

What’s a five bar gate? Remember I’m from London…

It isn't, but unless there is a major rethink from Whitehall on how it is run and funded I can see less and less involvement from the private sector in anything other than infrastructure / rolling stock.

Which is why a major rethink is needed, something I think we agree on.

Goodness knows what shape that’s going to take. Don’t assume that GBR is going to be anything other than more of the same…

You don't always have to be an insider to see the cultural problems. I know that a lot of people have negative views of the culture of the civil service, many of which do have substance. And reading through these forums as well as being a user of the the rail industry, we non-rail people can have similarly founded criticisms of your industry. Hell we only need to nip onto the National Rail Enquires site and check service disruptions to see how little importance the industry seems to be putting on passengers at the moment.

Who is “the industry”? It’s mostly comprised of well meaning front line staff and incompetent management.

I use the railway as a passenger almost every day and rarely have any problems. I honestly don’t recognise many of the criticisms people make on here.

It reminds me of the scene in Die Hard II where a member of cabin crew on a 'Windsor Air' flight reassures a passenger that they are just like British Rail, they are late having been put in a holding pattern, but they get them there eventually. A few scenes later the blummin' thing is crashed by the terrorists controlling ATC....*

(*Just in case anyone reaches for the keyboard to complain, this is an attempt at humour, probably not to everyone's taste but I am a cynical, 52 year old Yorkshireman...)

Flowery again. I want some of whatever you’re smoking. .

 

[66701GBRF]

Not related to this strike but the port of Felixstowe has just overwhelming voted for strike action (92% majority) which will inevitably have a significant impact on rail freight. This after the disruption of the actual rail strikes.

 

[Killingworth]

If I lived in one of the former red wall seats that fell to the Tories, I would be complaining vociferously about the need to get the trains running again. There's little chance of the government listening to anyone else.

I suspect there'll be very few regular rail users living in the red wall constituencies, possibly just as many relying on the railway industry for incomes so any complaints may come from both sides.

 

[43066]

Not related to this strike but the port of Felixstowe has just overwhelming voted for strike action (92% majority) which will inevitably have a significant impact on rail freight. This after the disruption of the actual rail strikes.

Good for them.

 

[ashkeba]

Belgium Rail SNCB seems easier to use and more popular than UK National Rail. I would welcome more coalitions if we get easier railways.

I have not enoigh experience of Italy.

Scotland not a proper coalition so more an example of UK style backroom deals.

 

[LowLevel]

The Unions are making a great case for the complete privatisation of the rail companies and rail network including a bonfire of current contracts with new contracts which allow a properly resourced 7 day a week railway. Sign this contract or make yourself redundant. Lots of pain the short term maybe but, in the end, the employers win. It's quite funny how the Unions argue for a fully nationalised railway and just when we're moving much closer towards it, remind us how it could be when fully nationalised i.e. the railways holding the country to ransom again. My son-in-law is a firefighter, they have to work 7 days a week, 12 hour shifts, unsocial hours and isn't paid anywhere near as much as the average train driver, for example, because it's a given that it's a 7 day a week job. He does get a fair amount of time off but that's largely related to the fact that he works long shifts. Railway workers need to be paid an appropriate amount, taking into account the flexibility needed in the job, otherwise no one would do the jobs. I am sure part of the problem is the management, it always is, but this action can't do the Labour party any good if you want to get rid of the current bunch of idiots.

And for us TOCs who already have such contracts in place and are still staring down the barrel of the gun...?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thameslink running a Sunday service

Tlk only running a Sunday service why? Granted it would take a few hours to get normal M-F service up and running and i can see no point running the Grinstead/Littlehampton's/Welwyn's but the industry is losing revenue on strike days and then offering a less than satisfactory service the following day is hardly an incentive for people to make journeys they've already put off.

It's the easiest plan for their timetable planners to implement. They dont have the resource to rewrite their morning sx plan at this short notice

 

[Carlisle]

Which is why the NHS Independent Review Panel routinely results in NHS workers getting worse pay offers and changes to their T&Cs benefits that worsen their real pay situation? As a result Grant Shapps screams nurses earn less than RMT workers on the railway. The recruitment crisis in the NHS now’s sees it scrambling to improve the pension scheme that was destroyed by previous reviews.
So we’d have had form of levelling up, just not one that’d have been so popular with some grades of rail staff.

Indeed, you prove my point perfectly.
if a similar review panel had controlled rail pay over the previous 20 years almost nobody would expect drivers & other senior operatives to earn as much as they currently do whereas the lowest grades may well have been better off, as they currently are in parts of the NHS .

 

[irish_rail]

The Unions are making a great case for the complete privatisation of the rail companies and rail network including a bonfire of current contracts with new contracts which allow a properly resourced 7 day a week railway. Sign this contract or make yourself redundant. Lots of pain the short term maybe but, in the end, the employers win. It's quite funny how the Unions argue for a fully nationalised railway and just when we're moving much closer towards it, remind us how it could be when fully nationalised i.e. the railways holding the country to ransom again. My son-in-law is a firefighter, they have to work 7 days a week, 12 hour shifts, unsocial hours and isn't paid anywhere near as much as the average train driver, for example, because it's a given that it's a 7 day a week job. He does get a fair amount of time off but that's largely related to the fact that he works long shifts. Railway workers need to be paid an appropriate amount, taking into account the flexibility needed in the job, otherwise no one would do the jobs. I am sure part of the problem is the management, it always is, but this action can't do the Labour party any good if you want to get rid of the current bunch of idiots.

So your son in law firefighter what is that for , a 2 or a 3 day week? And average shift how much of his time is he actually out there doing anything? Its a completely pointless comparison. For the record I'd sooner work a 2 or 3 day week and do longer shifts for less money, but that isn't an option on the railway for safety reasons.
This isn't a race to the bottom why can't some people grasp that?

 

[43066]

Indeed, you prove my point perfectly.
if a similar review panel had controlled rail pay over the previous 20 years almost nobody would expect drivers & other senior operatives to earn as much as they currently do whereas the lowest grades may well have been better off, as they currently are in parts of the NHS .

Is that right?

What do you do and how much do you earn, please?

And for us TOCs who already have such contracts in place and are still staring down the barrel of the gun...?

I know. Funny that, isn’t it?! I’ve worked Sundays for no extra pay ever since I joined the railway. I wonder how many of the people baying for a “properly resourced railway” deign to work weekends themselves…

Sorry to hear that. Sadly the Unions don't care about people like you. They know their actions have these consequences so can't plead ignorance.

If the unions had their way he wouldn’t be employed on a zero hour contract in the first place. That kind of dreadful practice is the problem with this country, and people complain about trade unions standing up for their members!

ASLEF strike action to last considerably longer than RMT strike action do you think?

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. It’s easy enough to recoup lost earnings via overtime - that goes for both ASLEF and RMT workers.

The situation is not a good thing but actions have consequences; the actions look like actions designed to persuade customers to use alternative transport and if that isn't the intention, it's clearly an expected outcome.

It can’t be helped - and inconveniencing passengers certainly isn’t the primary intention.

Passengers do tend to come back, though. They have done so after every single railway strike in history. I’ve seen nothing to suggest this one will be any different.

 

[MikeWM]

Even at their best, too many people found too many ticket offices closed unexpectedly, or refusing to sell them the cheaper tickets they'd identified, or temporally unable to take card payment, or unable to help change a ticket that was bought at a different ticket office because that one is run by Anglia and this one is run by West Anglia or some other excuse that sounds suspiciously like it won't make them any commission.

Meanwhile, regular passengers have season tickets or know how to ask and what their rights are.

So average passengers aren't as unhappy to lose ticket offices and paper tickets as the unions seem to be.

On the face of it I agree, and if TVMs could do everything a ticket office can do then in theory I'd be quite happy with that. (Note I said 'friendly' member of staff, which was partly tongue-in-cheek because by no means all of them are, and I ought to have added 'competent' too).

But my related concern there is that this isn't just a push to close ticket offices, it is simultaneously a move to removing paper tickets and the ability to pay in cash, all of which are huge changes that are currently proceeding far too fast, without proper consideration of the many complex issues they raise. There's already a thread elsewhere on the forum detailing how printing advances at TVMs is imminently going to be removed as an option, apparently simply because there appears to be some sort of ideological issue with paper tickets being issued anymore.

So in this case I do find myself agreeing with the unions, albeit for different reasons. FWIW I used the ticket office at Ely this morning, and bought a paper ticket with cash. I'll be very unhappy if I am no longer able to do that in the near future.

 

[Bantamzen]

It’s not a win. I learned long ago that repeating the same (wrong) point kinda sucks as a debating tactic - it doesn’t make it any less inaccurate.

What’s a five bar gate? Remember I’m from London…

Its a gate with 5 bars....

Goodness knows what shape that’s going to take. Don’t assume that GBR is going to be anything other than more of the same…

Yeah, I honestly doubt GBR will be much different. I mean their priority seemed to be getting a shiny new HQ for themselves, and no doubt lavish amounts will spent on it according to the egos of the decision makers.

Who is “the industry”? It’s mostly comprised of well meaning front line staff and incompetent management.

The industry is all of you, the incompetent managers, the well meaning staff, the not so well meaning staff, the trying to make a difference managers but not getting past the incompetent managers, the grumpy staff, the union reps with their eyes fixed on the bigger prize of a seat on the TUC, or political party...

I use the railway as a passenger almost every day and rarely have any problems. I honestly don’t recognise many of the criticisms people make on here.

And for a while pre-covid it did seem to be getting better. New stock was on its way, more capacity was on the horizon, shiny new big ticket "levelling up projects" were being planned, it actually felt like there was forward momentum. Then all of a sudden franchises were being torn up, & parts of the network started to fall apart. Then covid measures joined in the fun, and once over were continued to be used to make things all the worse. You only have to look at all the problems mounting up with many TOCs being discussed across these forums.

Flowery again. I want some of whatever you’re smoking. .

Flowery? If you think that is flowery then you're not ready for what I'm smoking* or drinking.... Remember I'm from Yorkshire tha'knows...

(*Disclaimer: This is another joke in case anyone doesn't see it as such. I neither smoke nor endorse any form of smoking, legal or otherwise. Unless of course it's been a particularly bad day at work then a bit of the latter might be indulged in**)
(** Disclaimer disclaimer: This is also a joke)

 

[baz962]

So your son in law firefighter what is that for , a 2 or a 3 day week? And average shift how much of his time is he actually out there doing anything? Its a completely pointless comparison. For the record I'd sooner work a 2 or 3 day week and do longer shifts for less money, but that isn't an option on the railway for safety reasons.
This isn't a race to the bottom why can't some people grasp that?

On my first assessment day in 2017 , there was a firefighter there. His particular station was Monday to Friday 9-5 and deferred to a bigger station outside those times. He also said that they rarely fought fires these days. The odd car collision and most of their work was literally cats in trees and rescuing people who lost handcuff keys during sex sessions. Also I used to work at Luton airport and most firefighters had second jobs and if you walk past the rear of Euston firestation and look in the carpark, some firefighters are also black cab drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think paper tickets will go away any time soon, there are lots of reasons to want them. They may well look more like e-tickets, of course, printed on till roll with a barcode which confers validity rather than more expensive security features on the ticket.

Cash is a different debate (as cash TVMs are a thing), and is likely to reduce in acceptance and eventually go away regardless of the booking office issue.

 

[Exscrew]

One thing that I have found really remarkable regarding the perception of the strike action is the contrast on different forums etc.
So I naively thought that a railway forum would be more on the side of the staff, its not.
However a climbing forum im in was very supportive of staff.. didn't expect that.
And a Facebook page for local people was very supportive other than the odd thatcher wannabe.

Regardless of how you feel about this dispute, if you don't realise that an attack from the government on unions throughout all industry can and will affect us and our children's future with regards to employment rights.

Im only in my 30s, However when I was 18 I got a job in retail for a few months, I was given a contract of 37 hours, decent holiday and sick pay.
I recently visited the same shop and saw an old colleague... these people are now on zero hours and have lost benefits with regards to commission.
The writing is on the wall people, they want us to bicker with each other while they slowly remove our rights... just look at brexit.

 

[martin2345uk]

The strike this Saturday, is that a RMT one ie signallers too? Trying to work out if my train will be running!

 

[Moonshot]

One thing that I have found really remarkable regarding the perception of the strike action is the contrast on different forums etc.
So I naively thought that a railway forum would be more on the side of the staff, its not.
However a climbing forum im in was very supportive of staff.. didn't expect that.
And a Facebook page for local people was very supportive other than the odd thatcher wannabe.

Regardless of how you feel about this dispute, if you don't realise that an attack from the government on unions throughout all industry can and will affect us and our children's future with regards to employment rights.

Im only in my 30s, However when I was 18 I got a job in retail for a few months, I was given a contract of 37 hours, decent holiday and sick pay.
I recently visited the same shop and saw an old colleague... these people are now on zero hours and have lost benefits with regards to commission.
The writing is on the wall people, they want us to bicker with each other while they slowly remove our rights... just look at brexit.

Those very same people who now find themselves on zero hours contracts can have no complaints. They can simply do what most rational people would do......upsticks and go and work for someone with better t and cs

 

[Exscrew]

Those very same people who now find themselves on zero hours contracts can have no complaints. They can simply do what most rational people would do......upsticks and go and work for someone with better t and cs

Unfortunately you will spend your career jumping from one sinking ship to another, when I worked for the prison service they changed our contracts and working conditions through this amazing idea of Modernisation. We as officers were not aloud to strike and although we held one lousy day of illegal strike action inevitably the government forced through changes... now I decided to leave as I'm young enough to move and retrain, but those people who work in horrendous conditions for crap money should just suck it up and not complain.
Where does the "Modernisation" stop?

 

[66701GBRF]

Those very same people who now find themselves on zero hours contracts can have no complaints. They can simply do what most rational people would do......upsticks and go and work for someone with better t and cs

That is the very argument that is often levelled against rail staff.

The strike this Saturday, is that a RMT one ie signallers too? Trying to work out if my train will be running!

No not network rail

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's the easiest plan for their timetable planners to implement. They dont have the resource to rewrite their morning sx plan at this short notice

Fair enough but with this being the likely game plan by RMT until this is resolved a better post strike contingency timetable should be constructed otherwise the outcome is ridership keeps going backwards and the Sunday timetable will become the normal timetable.

 

[Moonshot]

That is the very argument that is often levelled against rail staff.



No not network rail

I ve no intention of jumping ship......I'm quite happy with rail t and cs. Of course those T and C's are the product of many years of negotiations between Unions and Employers. Not too difficult to understand why the current encumbents of rail jobs are in fact just doing what's been done in the past.

 

[SJN]

The strike this Saturday, is that a RMT one ie signallers too? Trying to work out if my train will be running!

It’s an ASLEF one so the drivers are on strike. If your train is run by one of the TOC’s involved then it’s very unlikely that your train will be running. Best to check beforehand. The company website should put up a strike timetable before Saturday.