Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[winks]

My view on the pay deal so far is 4 + 4% is pretty poor. However - the priv travel for NR staff is worth a fair bit. Also all railway workers have had RPI pay rises for the last 20 years or so. Please remember this when you are asked for a couple of years of freezes things aren’t as bad as you make out. The rest of the public sector have lost 15-20% of earnings over that time or certainly the last 10 years. I’m not saying railway workers shouldn’t get a rise but 4% will be the most Network Rail will offer. Take it and move to the next pay round in my view.

 

[jon0844]

Those very same people who now find themselves on zero hours contracts can have no complaints. They can simply do what most rational people would do......upsticks and go and work for someone with better t and cs

What happens when every job is like that, as it has been accepted as the norm? What happens when someone ups and leaves and some other poor sod takes the job and gets fleeced instead?

Oh, wait, simply don't take any such jobs and remain unemployed instead - waiting for the companies to finally improve pay and conditions. Yeah, that's bound to happen. Or a company just keeps less staff, doesn't fill the vacant posts, and squeezes the remaining employees dry.

I go to Tesco in the evening and they turn off the scan and go machines hours before the advertised time because, for almost every single visit I make, there's one poor sod left on his own to cover every till. He can't cope with dealing with scanner issues, or random checks, so has no choice but to turn it off. You can see every time how stressed he looks, and if he went then what happens then? Maybe pull someone away from stacking the shelves to help, and just make the remaining staff work that bit harder..

This race to the bottom is picking up pace all the time. It's a far cry from introducing self checkouts and promising there would be no job cuts, and one worker covered 2, then 4, then 8 tills and now all of them. But, hey, nobody was sacked - they just don't hire anyone to replace those who finally say enough is enough.

Will Tesco up wages and fill all posts? Or will they seek to change conditions and drive down pay further? Fire and rehire perhaps?

As I've said before, these rail strikes must work for others to get a chance at better pay and conditions.. and it's also why the Government has such a big incentive to let them drag on in the hope that people will turn against the unions, pass new laws to make unions toothless, and then crack on with eroding worker rights even further.

Higher wages for all? Who ever believed that? Even lorry drivers who scored a few bonuses won't enjoy the extra money for any longer than necessary. Once the numbers are up to a suitable level, it will be everyone having to compete with each other as it was before.

 

[Bertie the bus]

One thing that I have found really remarkable regarding the perception of the strike action is the contrast on different forums etc.
So I naively thought that a railway forum would be more on the side of the staff, its not.
However a climbing forum im in was very supportive of staff.. didn't expect that.
And a Facebook page for local people was very supportive other than the odd thatcher wannabe.

Regardless of how you feel about this dispute, if you don't realise that an attack from the government on unions throughout all industry can and will affect us and our children's future with regards to employment rights.

Im only in my 30s, However when I was 18 I got a job in retail for a few months, I was given a contract of 37 hours, decent holiday and sick pay.
I recently visited the same shop and saw an old colleague... these people are now on zero hours and have lost benefits with regards to commission.
The writing is on the wall people, they want us to bicker with each other while they slowly remove our rights... just look at brexit.

It is a myth that this dispute is a fight for people outside the rail industry or that if the unions did win it would have a positive effect on the lowest paid. If the rail unions did manage to get a large pay increase at the end of this dispute then it could result in a larger pay rise for others employed by state organisations (it would certainly result in that expectation but whether they got it is another matter) but as most people directly employed by the state are relatively well paid – relatively well paid compared to the average pay before anybody says that teachers or nurses or any other profession should get more – any victory for the union would have no positive effect on those most in need.

 

[jon0844]

It is a myth that this dispute is a fight for people outside the rail industry or that if the unions did win it would have a positive effect on the lowest paid. If the rail unions did manage to get a large pay increase at the end of this dispute then it could result in a larger pay rise for others employed by state organisations (it would certainly result in that expectation but whether they got it is another matter) but as most people directly employed by the state are relatively well paid – relatively well paid compared to the average pay before anybody says that teachers or nurses or any other profession should get more – any victory for the union would have no positive effect on those most in need.

People don't see it that way though - whether you class it as a myth or not.

They see how the Government wants to kill the unions - and that means the unions for other industries better take note. I believe at least one is already starting a legal challenge to recent proposed changes to the law.

 

[Moonshot]

My view on the pay deal so far is 4 + 4% is pretty poor. However - the priv travel for NR staff is worth a fair bit. Also all railway workers have had RPI pay rises for the last 20 years or so. Please remember this when you are asked for a couple of years of freezes things aren’t as bad as you make out. The rest of the public sector have lost 15-20% of earnings over that time or certainly the last 10 years. I’m not saying railway workers shouldn’t get a rise but 4% will be the most Network Rail will offer. Take it and move to the next pay round in my view.

Didn't the local NR negotiator actually agree that the revised offer was fair, only for that to be rejected by the RMT executive without being put to a ballot?

 

[66701GBRF]

Also all railway workers have had RPI pay rises for the last 20 years or so.

“All railway workers”? Don’t think so.

 

[Moonshot]

People don't see it that way though - whether you class it as a myth or not.

They see how the Government wants to kill the unions - and that means the unions for other industries better take note. I believe at least one is already starting a legal challenge to recent proposed changes to the law.

On the subject of legal challenges, I note that the Insolvency Service has issued legal proceedings against P and O Ferries for the disgusting treatment of staff sacked

 

[Ivor]

Those very same people who now find themselves on zero hours contracts can have no complaints. They can simply do what most rational people would do......upsticks and go and work for someone with better t and cs

Not as simple as that I’m afraid when you’re ‘of an age’ in other words an old git like myself.

 

[Moonshot]

Not as simple as that I’m afraid when you’re ‘of an age’ in other words an old git like myself.

Old gits always have the option of simply retiring and living off a pension.

 

[footprints]

Nonsense. I have been a driver a little over four years and have never even discussed a strike in that time, until now. And even now it's just discussion. Never balloted and never voted.

You only have to visit the news archive or ballot results page on the RMT website and almost every article is about a new dispute being announced or a new set of dates for ongoing strike action. It quite clearly demonstrates the RMT see strike action as their first port of call, not the last resort it should be.

Is there a TOC in the country the RMT hasn't been in a major dispute with in the last five years?

 

[Exscrew]

Old gits always have the option of simply retiring and living off a pension.

What pension are you talking about if you have worked in a lower paid job your whole career... nonsense

 

[Ivor]

Old gits always have the option of simply retiring and living off a pension.

There’s a ‘real world’ out there.

 

[Carlisle]

People don't see it that way though - whether you class it as a myth or not.

They see how the Government wants to kill the unions - and that means the unions for other industries better take note. I believe at least one is already starting a legal challenge to recent proposed changes to the law.

Or alternatively the majority of the UK population may be intelligent enough to realise rail workers without union leverage to quickly & substantially disrupt services probably aren’t on anything superior to the rest of the UK workforce preforming similar tasks & in a sizeable number of cases it’ll be less.

 

[Ivor]

What pension are you talking about if you have worked in a lower paid job your whole career... nonsense

Thank you, someone who gets it

 

[Moonshot]

What pension are you talking about if you have worked in a lower paid job your whole career... nonsense

No nonsense about it.......anyone can start a pension anytime they want. Anyone can also join the railway industry if they want......the rail industry has a particularly good pension scheme in its own right.

 

[yorkie]

If the unions had their way he wouldn’t be employed on a zero hour contract in the first place. That kind of dreadful practice is the problem with this country, and people complain about trade unions standing up for their members!

It has its place; and I've done some work on that basis and continue to do so.

Some people may want to do multiple jobs and take extra pay on the side doing something extra, do something on a temporary basis and that sort of thing.

No permanent full time job should be done on that basis though.

I wouldn't trust the Unions to come up with a solution that would actually be workable but if they think they have, it deserves a thread in its own right.

It can’t be helped - and inconveniencing passengers certainly isn’t the primary intention.

Not intending to do something that is an obvious outcome isn't really a good excuse.

Put it another way: they don't intend to avoid that outcome . It's really just playing with words and the point stands.

Passengers do tend to come back, though. They have done so after every single railway strike in history. I’ve seen nothing to suggest this one will be any different.

You're right; there are sufficient passengers who can be inconvenienced without limit who have no alternative but to return to rail.

We are not going to persuade many people to give up their cars and we are never going to aim to have anything more than a tiny proportion of journeys made by train.

As long as there are some people who have no alternative but to use trains, and/or there are some journey opportunities where people will choose to do so in some circumstances, the rail network can plod along, being just about relevant enough to justify the cost but without being used by the majority of the population.

There is no thought given to reputational damage or making people confident they can rely on trains. That just doesn't register.

I think yes you are right there will always be enough people who will return they nothing will change.

But that also doesn't change the fact there are many people who are massively put off by rail and/or ensure they have alternative options available. And a strike is not going to disrupt the country they much and not going to make the government give in. It's only going to harm the railway. They is an obvious outcome whether anyone admits it's is intentional or not.

I had a crap experience today but I will return. The majority of the population won't tolerate that.

 

[Signal_Box]

A “very good offer” LOL. A pay rise lower than offered to all other government controlled sectors this year...4%. That’s before we get into all the change of T’s&C’s. Also, no offer to TOCs.

8% by Jan, very little change for my grade so to be honest I’m happy to accept it. I’m only interested in my grade just like every other if their honest.

RMT are only interested in keeping their funding steam going that no doubt has increased in the GS became a working class hero in some quarters.

 

[Ivor]

No nonsense about it.......anyone can start a pension anytime they want. Anyone can also join the railway industry if they want......the rail industry has a particularly good pension scheme in its own right.

In well over 7 years I’ve applied 6 times to no avail, two TOC recommendations too also fell upon stoney ground, ageism when applications are looked at by HR? I don’t know?

Then again I better not go there maybe that should be a separate thread

Other older agency colleagues have made numerous applications too (same outcome) but I’m sure someone can tell me otherwise as always an exception to the rule.

Sorry…. “Anyone can also join the railway industry if they want” isn’t true & would in fairness be the same picture in any industry.

 

[Moonshot]

8% by Jan, very little change for my grade so to be honest I’m happy to accept it. I’m only interested in my grade just like every other if their honest.

RMT are only interested in keeping their funding steam going that no doubt has increased in the GS became a working class hero in some quarters.

Now this is interesting. Assuming your view is the general view of the 4000 or so signalling staff, if that went to a ballot, is it fair to say that signalling staff would actually vote to end strike action?

In well over 7 years I’ve applied 6 times to no avail, two TOC recommendations too also fell upon stoney ground, ageism when applications are looked at by HR? I don’t know?

Then again I better not go there maybe that should be a separate thread

Other older agency colleagues have made numerous applications too (same outcome) but I’m sure someone can tell me otherwise as always an exception to the rule.

Sorry…. “Anyone can also join the railway industry if they want” isn’t true & would in fairness be the same picture in any industry.

I'm sorry but it is true, anyone can join the ranks in the rail industry. You don't need a degree to become a train driver.......simply the ability to get through the selection process in the first place.

 

[Exscrew]

No nonsense about it.......anyone can start a pension anytime they want. Anyone can also join the railway industry if they want......the rail industry has a particularly good pension scheme in its own right.

So you honestly think the retail workers pension will be adequate enough to retire on if he or she feels its time to go... you are either very out of tune or a Internet troll.
You need roughly 250k for an annunity of 9k a year! All of which becomes harder to achieve when employers can move goalposts.

 

[Moonshot]

So you honestly think the retail workers pension will be adequate enough to retire on if he or she feels its time to go... you are either very out of tune or a Internet troll.
You need roughly 250k for an annunity of 9k a year! All of which becomes harder to achieve when employers can move goalposts.

Pensions are not the only way to fund retirement.

 

[Exscrew]

Pensions are not the only way to fund retirement.

Okay please elaborate how the lower paid worker is able to fund said retirement, let's even make the assumption that they are mortgage free... although most people rent these days.

 

[Moonshot]

Okay please elaborate how the lower paid worker is able to fund said retirement, let's even make the assumption that they are mortgage free... although most people rent these days.

Simple. Don't be a lower paid worker in the first place. That's a choice everyone has.

 

[Taunton]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sam Tarry (shadow minister) being on the picket line this morning despite being told not to by Kier Starmer.
It will be interesting to see if Starmer sacks him or are the hard left still pulling the strings?

Sam Tarry is of course the current partner of Angela Rayner (yes, difficult to keep up with, I know), Labour Party deputy, who will doubtless have put him up to it overnight, in order to embarrass Keir Starmer and cause some trouble internally. It's rather unfortunate for the rail staff to have their issues hijacked by some internal power struggle within a political party, by those who probably, from the seat of their government Jag (which both leader and deputy of the opposition get) wouldn't know one end of a train from the other.

 

[Exscrew]

Simple. Don't be a lower paid worker in the first place. That's a choice everyone has.

And there we go.... how simple to not be a lower paid worker.
Unfortunately in the real world life is not that simple.
Does the care worker not deserve a decent retirement after years of helping others?
The idea is we as a collection need to all fight for a better future for us and the workers after us.

 

[jon0844]

Simple. Don't be a lower paid worker in the first place. That's a choice everyone has.

Great advice. Except someone needs those jobs to be done still.

If you get to the point where nobody can afford to do some essential jobs, you have a problem. As we have now with people not wanting to pick fruit, haul bags around airports and so on.

Post Brexit, now we don't have people willing to shack up 10 to a room to work these jobs, what's going to happen when all of a sudden we don't want to increase pay or improve conditions?

 

[martin2345uk]

Are you a blackleg by any chance?

What’s a blackleg when it’s at home?

 

[Moonshot]

And there we go.... how simple to not be a lower paid worker.
Unfortunately in the real world life is not that simple.
Does the care worker not deserve a decent retirement after years of helping others?
The idea is we as a collection need to all fight for a better future for us and the workers after us.

Yes I know ....I'm in Union myself.

Great advice. Except someone needs those jobs to be done still.

If you get to the point where nobody can afford to do some essential jobs, you have a problem. As we have now with people not wanting to pick fruit, haul bags around airports and so on.

Post Brexit, now we don't have people willing to shack up 10 to a room to work these jobs, what's going to happen when all of a sudden we don't want to increase pay or improve conditions?

Hang on a minute....those consequences of Brexit were well know in advance. Yet we still voted for them. If farmers want fruit picking, they are going to have to pay the proper rate for getting people to do that. Of course, that will make fruit more expensive in the shops

 

[Bald Rick]

but the problem we have here is the workers have been squeezed for years and well paid management never take the pain.

it’s worth comparing ’workers’ pay deals with ‘management’ pay deals in most rail companies for the last decade. You can guess which group has done better, and it’s not management.

 

[Need2]

Simple. Don't be a lower paid worker in the first place. That's a choice everyone has.

So become a train driver and get people like you saying that drivers earn too much!