Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[37114]

Unite seem to be doing pretty well in terms of pay deals being negotiated. Just take a look at their latest news page.

They might be winning the battle but may just lose the war... It is a fine line of pushing for decent pay deals for the members and pushing so hard that the employers focus more efforts on minimising the number of people they need to employ (eg using automation) of the members they claim to protect.

 

[Starmill]

They might be winning the battle but may just lose the war... It is a fine line of pushing for decent pay deals for the members and pushing so hard that the employers focus more efforts on minimising the number of people they need to employ (eg using automation) of the members they claim to protect.

It's also worth noting that lots of non-unionised workers have won large pay rises in the past couple of years, including above-inflation rises. These are mainly in the private sector though, so wouldn't include Network Rail or franchised passenger train operator staff.

 

[Killingworth]

Can you imagine how many more HGV's would be on the road, if Rail Freight faltered ! think there would also be a rather big 'outcry' ! 1 Intermodal = some 30 and sometimes a lot more Lorries !

There arent enough HGVs or drivers if the freight railway closed down, however if there were the public outcry at having them all on the roads might be greater than that from inconvenienced passengers.

On motorways and trunk roads it would be bad enough but clogged narrow roads near quarries and in cities with consequent damage to road surfaces might make the public appreciate the railway rather more.

 

[Andyh82]

Is there a summary of which unions are on strike at which operators on which days, as I’ve completely lost track?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is there a summary of which unions are on strike at which operators on which days, as I’ve completely lost track?

I have:

Wednesday 27th July: RMT
Saturday 30th July: ASLEF
Saturday 13th August: ASLEF
Thursday 18th August: RMT
Saturday 20th August: RMT

I don't know about TSSA, whether their workers directly affect train services

 

[kristiang85]

I have:

Wednesday 27th July: RMT
Saturday 30th July: ASLEF
Saturday 13th August: ASLEF
Thursday 18th August: RMT
Saturday 20th August: RMT

I don't know about TSSA, whether their workers directly affect train services

Somebody needs to make a shared railforums Google calendar to keep up with all of this

 

[Starmill]

I have:

Wednesday 27th July: RMT
Saturday 30th July: ASLEF
Saturday 13th August: ASLEF
Thursday 18th August: RMT
Saturday 20th August: RMT

I don't know about TSSA, whether their workers directly affect train services

If one is including RMT strikes at London Underground then there is also 19 August planned.

It was certainly widely reported that TSSA had given notice of action short of a strike so this would be likely to affect the strike contingency service when other action is taking place.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If matters continue, I can see a new National Lottery ticket coming out, where you have to select 10 dates when strike action will take place two months after the date of the purchase of the ticket stating when such action will be taking place.

 

[LowLevel]

Well my trains today have been extremely busy - perhaps helped along by the seemingly near total collapse of TPE as I rescued hordes of their passengers and several staff members from Manchester heading for all over Yorkshire and the North East to descend upon Sheffield seeking connections.

Hull, Newcastle, Darlington, Middlesbrough - by far the most peeved though were those attempting to get to Scunthorpe and Grimsby with cumulative near 3 hour waits.

The local commuter train I worked in the afternoon wasn't doing a bad trade either.

 

[Starmill]

Well my trains today have been extremely busy - perhaps helped along by the seemingly near total collapse of TPE as I rescued hordes of their passengers and several staff members from Manchester heading for all over Yorkshire and the North East to descend upon Sheffield seeking connections.

Hull, Newcastle, Darlington, Middlesbrough - by far the most peeved though were those attempting to get to Scunthorpe and Grimsby with cumulative near 3 hour waits.

The local commuter train I worked in the afternoon wasn't doing a bad trade either.

Indeed - Tuesday evening was also much busier than is usual for a Tuesday nowadays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well my trains today have been extremely busy - perhaps helped along by the seemingly near total collapse of TPE as I rescued hordes of their passengers and several staff members from Manchester heading for all over Yorkshire and the North East to descend upon Sheffield seeking connections.

Hull, Newcastle, Darlington, Middlesbrough - by far the most peeved though were those attempting to get to Scunthorpe and Grimsby with cumulative near 3 hour waits.

The local commuter train I worked in the afternoon wasn't doing a bad trade either.

How long can TPE carry on for?

 

[Bald Rick]

I have:

Wednesday 27th July: RMT
Saturday 30th July: ASLEF
Saturday 13th August: ASLEF
Thursday 18th August: RMT
Saturday 20th August: RMT

I don't know about TSSA, whether their workers directly affect train services

Some TSSA members working for some (not all) TOCs are taking strike action or action short of a strike on 18 and 20 August. How this will affect train services is unclear.


However in other TSSA news, they have today announced a referendum for Network Rail managers on the revised pay offer (4%), with a recommendation that it is accepted.

 

[LAX54]

I have:

Wednesday 27th July: RMT
Saturday 30th July: ASLEF
Saturday 13th August: ASLEF
Thursday 18th August: RMT
Saturday 20th August: RMT

I don't know about TSSA, whether their workers directly affect train services

Some Signallers etc are now in the TSSA, think some joined after they were disillusioned during the 94 strike

 

[theageofthetra]

Re the ASLEF strike dates being on Saturdays. Do company council members work in effect 9-5 Mon/Fri so are unaffected pay wise?

 

[dk1]

Re the ASLEF strike dates being on Saturdays. Do company council members work in effect 9-5 Mon/Fri so are unaffected pay wise?

Yes they do as almost always released for union business. The fact that weekend leisure travel being the best market to target is just one of those things now.

 

[43066]

Its a gate with 5 bars....

That’ll teach me to ask a silly question!

Yeah, I honestly doubt GBR will be much different. I mean their priority seemed to be getting a shiny new HQ for themselves, and no doubt lavish amounts will spent on it according to the egos of the decision makers.

Yep.

The industry is all of you, the incompetent managers, the well meaning staff, the not so well meaning staff, the trying to make a difference managers but not getting past the incompetent managers, the grumpy staff, the union reps with their eyes fixed on the bigger prize of a seat on the TUC, or political party...

It probably is pretty awful. I’m mainly there because I like trains. I’ve always wanted to drive trains for a living and now I do. Therefore I’m winning. That’s where it begins and ends for me, really.

The money is decent enough but trust me if I’d wanted to get rich I’d have stayed in my previous career. Precisely zero regrets - albeit the atmosphere is a little toxic at the moment and I’m looking forward to the current IR situation being resolved in due course.

And for a while pre-covid it did seem to be getting better. New stock was on its way, more capacity was on the horizon, shiny new big ticket "levelling up projects" were being planned, it actually felt like there was forward momentum. Then all of a sudden franchises were being torn up, & parts of the network started to fall apart. Then covid measures joined in the fun, and once over were continued to be used to make things all the worse. You only have to look at all the problems mounting up with many TOCs being discussed across these forums.

It was happening before covid, LNER for instance.

Flowery? If you think that is flowery then you're not ready for what I'm smoking* or drinking.... Remember I'm from Yorkshire tha'knows...

That explains it. Do you have a whippet?

No permanent full time job should be done on that basis though.

Agreed. Sadly the rise of the gig economy has witnessed these arrangements being exploited by unscrupulous organisations - Uber being a good example.

Not intending to do something that is an obvious outcome isn't really a good excuse. We seem to be moving towards almost Victorian master-servant-esque employment relationships in that area.

Put it another way: they don't intend to avoid that outcome . It's really just playing with words and the point stands.

There’s a need to distinguish between motive and intention.

I suppose we can’t really say there isn’t an intention to inconvenience passengers, because that’s an inevitable result of taking industrial action. However the motive underpinning the action has nothing to do with this, and it isn’t something staff take pleasure in.

Re the ASLEF strike dates being on Saturdays. Do company council members work in effect 9-5 Mon/Fri so are unaffected pay wise?

Does it matter?

As an ASLEF member I can assure you it doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

it’s worth comparing ’workers’ pay deals with ‘management’ pay deals in most rail companies for the last decade. You can guess which group has done better, and it’s not management.

Fair point its not the lower/middle management but senior managers have done very nicely. Six of the top ten paid civil servants/arms length bodies are from NR.

 

[Bald Rick]

Six of the top ten paid civil servants/arms length bodies are from NR.

yep, and while I won’t defend that, they all earn considerably less than their predecessors earned 20 years ago. In most cases in cash terms, ie not allowing for inflation.

 

[43066]

yep, and while I won’t defend that, they all earn considerably less than their predecessors earned 20 years ago. In most cases in cash terms, ie not allowing for inflation.

Why should you have to defend it? If they’re good at their jobs, why on Earth shouldn’t they earn well?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why should you have to defend it? If they’re good at their jobs, why on Earth shouldn’t they earn well?

because their salaries are considerably out of kilter with others in the public sector but ultimately the govt have allowed this to happen

 

[43066]

because their salaries are considerably out of kilter with others in the public sector but ultimately the govt have allowed this to happen

Is that actually true? I think there’s an unhealthy obsession with the earnings of others on this thread.

How much was Dr. Beeching being paid back in the ‘60s? Far more than these guys are getting, in inflation adjusted terms.

 

[Bald Rick]

because their salaries are considerably out of kilter with others in the public sector but ultimately the govt have allowed this to happen

that maybe so, but there has been considerable downward pressure on salaries and bonuses etc at the top of the rail industry for some time.

 

[dctraindriver]

It will be a relief when improvements in technology allows for driverless trains, at this rate

I guess you’re bored today…. Please stop trolling. It’ll be years before driverless trains on my network.

 

[Exscrew]

I guess you’re bored today…. Please stop trolling. It’ll be years before driverless trains on my network.

I predict there will still be drivers on trains when I'm 6ft under and im in my 30s

 

[43066]

I guess you’re bored today…. Please stop trolling. It’ll be years before driverless trains on my network.

I’m looking forward to them. I can just watch it driving itself.

Rest day link?

I predict there will still be drivers on trains when I'm 6ft under and im in my 30s

Indeed. We’ll still be hammering the overtime when we’re long dead.

 

[dctraindriver]

I predict there will still be drivers on trains when I'm 6ft under and im in my 30s

I think you’re right. I’m astounded by a few who contribute on here because of their anger towards a minority of rail staff who they dislike from postings on here or twitter. The majority of us care greatly about our industry and those who work on it or use it….

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I guess you’re bored today…. Please stop trolling. It’ll be years before driverless trains on my network.

Do not tell me that I am trolling. Having made a broad range of contributions across all subforums of this site since joining, I resent your decision to brand an opinion of mine as trolling simply because it looks unfavourably on strikes, which you yourself advocate (as you have the right to).

A light hearted quip made out of pure exasperation, not specifically only due to the inconvenience these strikes are causing to passengers, but because it’s a deeply unpleasant situation for both parties, prompted my post - that, and having recently travelled on and looked at a number of driverless systems abroad which naturally do not have these problems.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think you’re right. I’m astounded by a few who contribute on here because of their anger towards a minority of rail staff who they dislike from postings on here or twitter. The majority of us care greatly about our industry and those who work on it or use it….

I assume you’re referring to me here. I happen to be rail staff myself, and I’ve based my thoughts (there is no anger whatsoever), on what I have seen in person around me, as a passenger also, and on here. References to Twitter made by myself have been made afterwards, having been shocked to see hostility spread to social media.

But one thing I steadfastly refuse to do is generalise, and therefore if you believe me to admonish all rail staff with the same brush, you would be mistaken. I have said in multiple posts that some members of the industry are giving the rest a bad name due to their quickness to defensive anger and apparent hatred.

 

[dctraindriver]

I assume you’re referring to me here. I happen to be rail staff myself, and I’ve based my thoughts (there is no anger whatsoever), on what I have seen in person around me, as a passenger also, and on here. References to Twitter made by myself have been made afterwards, having been shocked to see hostility spread to social media.

But one thing I steadfastly refuse to do is generalise, and therefore if you believe me to admonish all rail staff with the same brush, you would be mistaken. I have said in multiple posts that some members of the industry are giving the rest a bad name due to their quickness to defensive anger and apparent hatred.

I know you are. And your posts have been negative to those who work in the industry.

 

[43066]

Do not tell me that I am trolling. Having made a broad range of contributions across all subforums of this site since joining, I resent your decision to brand an opinion of mine as trolling simply because it looks unfavourably on strikes, which you yourself advocate (as you have the right to).

A light hearted quip made out of pure exasperation, not specifically only due to the inconvenience these strikes are causing to passengers, but because it’s a deeply unpleasant situation for both parties, prompted my post - that, and having recently travelled on and looked at a number of driverless systems abroad which naturally do not have these problems.

Sometimes you’re genuinely funny. Stop gilding the Lilly.

I want driverless trains myself.

I happen to be rail staff myself,

I’d say be bloody careful!