Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The IETS will be an inferior train to the Meridians they replace, the only thing they have going for them is the increased legroom in the airline seats. The Meridians improved on the Voyagers shortcomings and are a fine train all around It will be a huge loss to see them go.

While I won’t judge a train until I’ve been on it, I certainly agree that the Meridians offer a wonderful onboard atmosphere (without doubt nicer than the horrendous ex EMT HSTs I think) and I will miss them greatly.

 

[AM9]

The IETS will be an inferior train to the Meridians they replace, the only thing they have going for them is the increased legroom in the airline seats. The Meridians improved on the Voyagers shortcomings and are a fine train all around It will be a huge loss to see them go.

Plus the fact that they won't be emitting CO2, particulates and the noise from IC engines from St Pancras to Market Harborough (initially) and eventually to Sheffield. You only need to live near the railway to appreciate the improvement from those facts.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Plus the fact that they won't be emitting CO2, particulates and the noise from IC engines from St Pancras to Market Harborough (initially) and eventually to Sheffield. You only need to live near the railway to appreciate the improvement from those facts.

I agree with that "AM9". Civilised railway administrations favour electric trains where they can afford them and having seen or felt 20 years of Cummins QSK19s under the carpet spewing out diesel particulates and heat, I would prefer electric trains. In addition, the MTU diesels are infinitely less obstrusive than the Cummins.

 

[QSK19]

Plus the fact that they won't be emitting CO2, particulates and the noise from IC engines from St Pancras to Market Harborough (initially).

Presuming that the wires south of Bedford will have been upgraded in time. If not, potentially the 810s will be electric from STP to around Cricklewood, then pan down, then pan up at Bedford and down again at Market Harborough/South Wigston. The pans would be up and down more than somebody on a trampoline!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==

I agree with that "AM9". Civilised railway administrations favour electric trains where they can afford them and having seen or felt 20 years of Cummins QSK19s under the carpet spewing out diesel particulates and heat, I would prefer electric trains. In addition, the MTU diesels are infinitely less obstrusive than the Cummins.

As much as it goes against my username, yes I agree that, when they eventually enter service, we’ll have a cleaner MML.

 

[Chiltern006]

will give some good competition to LNER with brand new trains

imo it’s the superior way to get to leeds. might take a bit longer with the change at sheffield but it’s quieter and cheaper, with much nicer (and comfier) stock

 

[irish_rail]

While I won’t judge a train until I’ve been on it, I certainly agree that the Meridians offer a wonderful onboard atmosphere (without doubt nicer than the horrendous ex EMT HSTs I think) and I will miss them greatly.

Beauty very much in the eye of the beholder. I found 222s to be the most uncomfortable of all the uk intercity fleets. Seats terrible, legroom terrible, and claustrophobic lack of gap between seats. Also very dark dank toilets., not to mention a lack of seats and tables. But as I said, its all personal opinion. I think the folk of the East Midlands will see a big improvement with bright airy 80xs with more tables etc etc.

 

[43055]

Beauty very much in the eye of the beholder. I found 222s to be the most uncomfortable of all the uk intercity fleets. Seats terrible, legroom terrible, and claustrophobic lack of gap between seats. Also very dark dank toilets., not to mention a lack of seats and tables. But as I said, its all personal opinion. I think the folk of the East Midlands will see a big improvement with bright airy 80xs with more tables etc etc.

Given the current state of standard class (ripped seats etc) then yes the 810's will be an improvement. Not sure how many table seats you are after but the 222's generally have 6 per coach for standard class which on a 5 car unit is the same number on a GWR 800.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So in approval terms that are quite different beasts. Given the problems associated with the introduction of some of the class 8xx trains, why are some here so desperate to rush them into service?

The industry is costing a fortune to run and some costs could have been avoided across all operators if they just stuck to a standard design rather than creating their own variants leading to all the extra type testing with its associated cost and time penalty. I get they need a shorter underframe but the rest of it could have been left the same to minimise the approval timeline. Lumo showed how should be done just order the standard approved unit and change stuff that doesn't need type approval. Anyhow with the snail pace progress of the wires and the upgrading South of Bedford still in progress its not as if they would be able to exploit them effectively yet anyhow.

 

[Helvellyn]

The industry is costing a fortune to run and some costs could have been avoided across all operators if they just stuck to a standard design rather than creating their own variants leading to all the extra type testing with its associated cost and time penalty. I get they need a shorter underframe but the rest of it could have been left the same to minimise the approval timeline. Lumo showed how should be done just order the standard approved unit and change stuff that doesn't need type approval. Anyhow with the snail pace progress of the wires and the upgrading South of Bedford still in progress its not as if they would be able to exploit them effectively yet anyhow.

It has been said several times they had to go for 24m bodies to accommodate a 10-car formation in St Pancras - 240m fits; 260m doesn't.

It has also been stated why they need four out of five coaches to have engines, and higher powered than an 802 let alone a 800 because they need to be able to match the acceleration of the 222s if journey times are actually not to be slower than now.

A nine coach train using 26m coaches would fit in St Pancras. But it would still need significant design changes to have 8 out of 9 coaches fitted with engines, which would have to be higher powered (as in the 810s) to match the 222s acceleration. You would also need more than 33 5-car units if all units were 9-car to cover the timetable, so in turn your purchase and leasing costs are higher (more coaches overall), you need more depot space, etc.

 

[Killingworth]

It has been said several times they had to go for 24m bodies to accommodate a 10-car formation in St Pancras - 240m fits; 260m doesn't.

It has also been stated why they need four out of five coaches to have engines, and higher powered than an 802 let alone a 800 because they need to be able to match the acceleration of the 222s if journey times are actually not to be slower than now.

A nine coach train using 26m coaches would fit in St Pancras. But it would still need significant design changes to have 8 out of 9 coaches fitted with engines, which would have to be higher powered (as in the 810s) to match the 222s acceleration. You would also need more than 33 5-car units if all units were 9-car to cover the timetable, so in turn your purchase and leasing costs are higher (more coaches overall), you need more depot space, etc.

Of course the shortage of platform space across the nation is the herd of elephants in the room, its not limited to St Pancras. We can't run more trains on busy lines because we haven't enough tracks but we can't run longer trains becuse we haven't the platforms. Those who want rail to get signficant traffic off the roads need to tackle this rather than reopening closed
ines.

I suspect I may not live long enough to see a fully electric artival in Sheffield but it would be good if these units were deployed on services up to Leeds before they're scrapped.

 

[AM9]

The industry is costing a fortune to run and some costs could have been avoided across all operators if they just stuck to a standard design rather than creating their own variants leading to all the extra type testing with its associated cost and time penalty. I get they need a shorter underframe but the rest of it could have been left the same to minimise the approval timeline. Lumo showed how should be done just order the standard approved unit and change stuff that doesn't need type approval. Anyhow with the snail pace progress of the wires and the upgrading South of Bedford still in progress its not as if they would be able to exploit them effectively yet anyhow.

Lumo are running a limited service on a route that is already cleared for 26m class 8xx units, - 5-car, 9-car and 2 x5-car consists. Apart from an 'easy:-jet' interior, there was no reason to deviate from the 5-car build that was already plying the route. Given that the operation runs with just 5 units, the start-up operation wouldn't have got off the ground had they gone for bespoke versions. The EMR route is totally different, in many ways. The trains are required to integrate with intensive TL services for the first 50 miles so would need an acceleration performance that enables them to keep to tight headways against class 700s yet reach 125mph when needed. The 'standard approved unit' as you call it wouldn't meet the requirement, let alone fit in the very constrained platform space at St Pancras. So the class 810 will need type approval including route clearance and until that is complete, they won't be rushed into service. The Meridians, with no takers for cascading will continue to work the MML until both the infrastructure and the 810s are ready for service.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It has been said several times they had to go for 24m bodies to accommodate a 10-car formation in St Pancras - 240m fits; 260m doesn't.

It has also been stated why they need four out of five coaches to have engines, and higher powered than an 802 let alone a 800 because they need to be able to match the acceleration of the 222s if journey times are actually not to be slower than now.

A nine coach train using 26m coaches would fit in St Pancras. But it would still need significant design changes to have 8 out of 9 coaches fitted with engines, which would have to be higher powered (as in the 810s) to match the 222s acceleration. You would also need more than 33 5-car units if all units were 9-car to cover the timetable, so in turn your purchase and leasing costs are higher (more coaches overall), you need more depot space, etc.

The point though is that STP-SHF will be electrified throughout, and would have been much sooner if Grayling hadn;t paused the scheme. The current fleet is less than 20 years old, and really needs a halflife overhaul and refit. In actual fact, had project Thor gone ahead the 222s could have paved the way for a brand new electric fleet for when the OLE reached Sheffield, and not borthered with expensive MTUs.

But that is the problem with the failed and botched UK passenger privatisation scheme.

 

[Richard Scott]

I agree with that "AM9". Civilised railway administrations favour electric trains where they can afford them and having seen or felt 20 years of Cummins QSK19s under the carpet spewing out diesel particulates and heat, I would prefer electric trains. In addition, the MTU diesels are infinitely less obstrusive than the Cummins.

No doubt the MTUs emissions are greatly reduced compared to the Cummins?

 

[Snow1964]

It has been said several times they had to go for 24m bodies to accommodate a 10-car formation in St Pancras - 240m fits; 260m doesn't.

It has also been stated why they need four out of five coaches to have engines, and higher powered than an 802 let alone a 800 because they need to be able to match the acceleration of the 222s if journey times are actually not to be slower than now.

I do wonder if in a few years time, when the wires get further north, one of the four engines will be removed, creating a pool of spare engines.

I also suspect they will have the same problems as GWR, where they curse a fleet of 5car units, and wish they had lengthened some to 7car. Yes another type, but easier to operate than a double unit (guard in wrong unit, and catering whole train difficult). 5car is too short for some workings, but 10car excessive, and mid journey coupling takes few minutes

 

[Domh245]

I do wonder if in a few years time, when the wires get further north, one of the four engines will be removed, creating a pool of spare engines.

I also suspect they will have the same problems as GWR, where they curse a fleet of 5car units, and wish they had lengthened some to 7car. Yes another type, but easier to operate than a double unit (guard in wrong unit, and catering whole train difficult). 5car is too short for some workings, but 10car excessive, and mid journey coupling takes few minutes

I don't think there's any intention to split or join them outside of the depot beyond the handful of services that split & join already - seems to be the intention that they'll leave Etches Park as a single or double formations and stay that way most of the day

 

[Wyrleybart]

No doubt the MTUs emissions are greatly reduced compared to the Cummins?

I am sure.
Not very clued up but I wonder if the QSK19 was of the era prior to Ad blue, whereas the MTU under the IET will be a generation newer.

 

[XAM2175]

No doubt the MTUs emissions are greatly reduced compared to the Cummins?

Not very clued up but I wonder if the QSK19 was of the era prior to Ad blue, whereas the MTU under the IET will be a generation newer.

Yes, the MTU gensets use Selective Catalytic Reduction (the proper name for the system that uses AdBlue) so they will be a notch 'cleaner'.

 

[Domh245]

Yes, the MTU gensets use Selective Catalytic Reduction (the proper name for the system that uses AdBlue) so they will be a notch 'cleaner'.

They'll have less NOx, which is what SCR is used to reduce, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll have lower emissions across the board, though you would like to think that they would. I cannot remember if it's just an urban legend or not, but I recall reading somewhere about all of the various exhaust scrubbing technologies meaning that whilst there were less particulates and NOx, CO2 was increased on some modern engines

 

[Richard Scott]

They'll have less NOx, which is what SCR is used to reduce, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll have lower emissions across the board, though you would like to think that they would. I cannot remember if it's just an urban legend or not, but I recall reading somewhere about all of the various exhaust scrubbing technologies meaning that whilst there were less particulates and NOx, CO2 was increased on some modern engines

I believe there is a trade off as less NOx requires lower combustion temperatures but leads to greater fuel consumption. Although would expect the more modern MTU to still offer improved fuel consumption over the older Cummins.

 

[43066]

Beauty very much in the eye of the beholder. I found 222s to be the most uncomfortable of all the uk intercity fleets. Seats terrible, legroom terrible, and claustrophobic lack of gap between seats. Also very dark dank toilets., not to mention a lack of seats and tables. But as I said, its all personal opinion. I think the folk of the East Midlands will see a big improvement with bright airy 80xs with more tables etc etc.

222 standard class is pretty grim and getting fairly tatty these days, it has to be said. First is a lot better. Next time flash your staff pass and see if they’ll let you upgrade!

 

[43055]

I do wonder if in a few years time, when the wires get further north, one of the four engines will be removed, creating a pool of spare engines.

I also suspect they will have the same problems as GWR, where they curse a fleet of 5car units, and wish they had lengthened some to 7car. Yes another type, but easier to operate than a double unit (guard in wrong unit, and catering whole train difficult). 5car is too short for some workings, but 10car excessive, and mid journey coupling takes few minutes

The 810's will be a increase on capacity compared to a 5 car 222's so almost all services will have a increase in capacity even if they stay as a 5 car service. At the moment only 2 services join on route these being the two Lincoln starters on weekday mornings. Other than that it is at Etches Park, London and possibly Nottingham and Sheffield during turnarounds.

 

[AM9]

I do wonder if in a few years time, when the wires get further north, one of the four engines will be removed, creating a pool of spare engines.

Not unless dummy engine weights are fitted in their place.

 

[43066]

The 810's will be a increase on capacity compared to a 5 car 222's so almost all services will have a increase in capacity even if they stay as a 5 car service. At the moment only 2 services join on route these being the two Lincoln starters on weekday mornings. Other than that it is at Etches Park, London and possibly Nottingham and Sheffield during turnarounds.

IIRC a five car 810 will better a seven car 222 for capacity.

 

[Energy]

IIRC a five car 810 will better a seven car 222 for capacity.

Its about 20 more standard and around 50 less first class than a 7 car 222. The 222s are pretty generous in their first class provision (I don't think first class was ever that full...)

 

[TheBigD]

I also suspect they will have the same problems as GWR, where they curse a fleet of 5car units, and wish they had lengthened some to 7car. Yes another type, but easier to operate than a double unit (guard in wrong unit, and catering whole train difficult). 5car is too short for some workings, but 10car excessive, and mid journey coupling takes few minutes

The current order for 33 units allows for all peak services to be 10 car, plus around 50% of off peak services.
For example, from a fleet of 33 units you would realistically diagram 28 or 29 sets.
The half hourly Sheffield service requires 10 sets, and the half hourly Nottingham service requires 9 sets. So you will have around 8 or 9 sets available for 10 car running.
The 180s being retained also allows for a couple more services to be 10 cars.

The 810's will be a increase on capacity compared to a 5 car 222's so almost all services will have a increase in capacity even if they stay as a 5 car service. At the moment only 2 services join on route these being the two Lincoln starters on weekday mornings. Other than that it is at Etches Park, London and possibly Nottingham and Sheffield during turnarounds.

The morning up and evening down Melton Mowbray services also split en route at Kettering.

IIRC a five car 810 will better a seven car 222 for capacity.

5 car 222 = 50 1st and 190 std = 240 seats*.
7 car 222 = 106 1st and 232 std = 338 seats.

5 car 810 = 47 1st and 254 std = 301 seats**.

* some sets are different due to reforming the 4 x 4 car and 2 x 7 car sets into 6 x 5 car sets.
** assuming Wikipedia is correct...

 

[Helvellyn]

The 180s being retained also allows for a couple more services to be 10 cars.

This part of the plan is madness. Just let EMR order another 4 units and have a single InterCity fleet. Or if they have to keep some existing units refurbish the 222/1s as 4x7 car, and at least it's a single fleet of 23 5-car 222/0s needing a new home.

 

[Class360/1]

The current order for 33 units allows for all peak services to be 10 car, plus around 50% of off peak services.
For example, from a fleet of 33 units you would realistically diagram 28 or 29 sets.
The half hourly Sheffield service requires 10 sets, and the half hourly Nottingham service requires 9 sets. So you will have around 8 or 9 sets available for 10 car running.
The 180s being retained also allows for a couple more services to be 10 cars.

The morning up and evening down Melton Mowbray services also split en route at Kettering.

5 car 222 = 50 1st and 190 std = 240 seats*.
7 car 222 = 106 1st and 232 std = 338 seats.

5 car 810 = 47 1st and 254 std = 301 seats**.

* some sets are different due to reforming the 4 x 4 car and 2 x 7 car sets into 6 x 5 car sets.
** assuming Wikipedia is correct...

Will the 180s be repainted from EMR interim to EMR InterCity?

 

[JonathanH]

This part of the plan is madness. Just let EMR order another 4 units and have a single InterCity fleet. Or if they have to keep some existing units refurbish the 222/1s as 4x7 car, and at least it's a single fleet of 23 5-car 222/0s needing a new home.

Or just bin the 180s and 222s and make do with the ordered fleet of 810s, pricing customers off the 5-car services felt to be too short and onto the adjacent 10-car ones. Isn't that the point of advance fares to some extent?

 

[TheBigD]

This part of the plan is madness. Just let EMR order another 4 units and have a single InterCity fleet. Or if they have to keep some existing units refurbish the 222/1s as 4x7 car, and at least it's a single fleet of 23 5-car 222/0s needing a new home.

I suspect the 180s are cheap to lease...

The original plan was for 31 of the 33 x 810s to be diagrammed but this is now accepted as unrealistic, hence the 4 x 180s being retained.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2022 ==

Or just bin the 180s and 222s and make do with the ordered fleet of 810s, pricing customers off the 5-car services felt to be too short and onto the adjacent 10-car ones. Isn't that the point of advance fares to some extent?

That would be what my money is on once the recession hits later this year...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2022 ==

Will the 180s be repainted from EMR interim to EMR InterCity?

No idea, sorry!

 

[QSK19]

This part of the plan is madness. Just let EMR order another 4 units and have a single InterCity fleet. Or if they have to keep some existing units refurbish the 222/1s as 4x7 car, and at least it's a single fleet of 23 5-car 222/0s needing a new home.

Agreed on ordering a few more 810s; but I don’t think the DfT would be that generous! I think they begrudgingly gave EMR the 810s as a sop for Grayling’s cancelled MML electrification… surprised they didn’t cancel the order later on and tell EMR to make do with the 222s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2022 ==

Will the 180s be repainted from EMR interim to EMR InterCity?

One would hope so, but I bet not!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2022 ==

I suspect the 180s are cheap to lease...

Yep, most likely a peppercorn lease. I can’t see GC wanting them; so they’d probably have gone to the scrapyard if EMR didn’t retain them. I’d hope that they’ll get a refurbishment though, even if a light one.