Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Energy]

That would be what my money is on once the recession hits later this year...

I doubt it, EMR staff are already trained on the 180s and they will have a cheap lease.

 

[43066]

I doubt it, EMR staff are already trained on the 180s and they will have a cheap lease.

Albeit not that many staff. Only one link of Derby drivers sign them. There may be more TMs.

 

[AM9]

I doubt it, EMR staff are already trained on the 180s and they will have a cheap lease.

So the MML south still won't be free of trains belching out CO2 NOxs and particulates even when the elctrification is complete to Market Harborough.

 

[Trainben]

I'm using class 222 a few times a week for work and do find it frustrating how EMR have let the trains deteriorate, many of the seats are quite badly stained and some threadbare, i have also noticed other faults that I see commonly such as misted glazing and doors not working properly between vestibules. I do however find the staff to be friendly and helpful and the service frequency is excellent for getting to the capital, I just think maintenance standards need to be improved.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Its about 20 more standard and around 50 less first class than a 7 car 222. The 222s are pretty generous in their first class provision (I don't think first class was ever that full...)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It has been said several times they had to go for 24m bodies to accommodate a 10-car formation in St Pancras - 240m fits; 260m doesn't.

It has also been stated why they need four out of five coaches to have engines, and higher powered than an 802 let alone a 800 because they need to be able to match the acceleration of the 222s if journey times are actually not to be slower than now.

A nine coach train using 26m coaches would fit in St Pancras. But it would still need significant design changes to have 8 out of 9 coaches fitted with engines, which would have to be higher powered (as in the 810s) to match the 222s acceleration. You would also need more than 33 5-car units if all units were 9-car to cover the timetable, so in turn your purchase and leasing costs are higher (more coaches overall), you need more depot space, etc.

I know they need to be shorter because of platform constraints at STP my point is sticking with approved mechanical and electrical configurations would have speeded up the type approval process. Furthermore an MTU 802 engine is rated at 940hp or 3760hp/5 car vs 3750hp from a five car 222 and given an 810 is shorter than an 802 would have had an improved power to weight ratio over an 802 so how much of a performance impact would there have been? Also what mix of electric/diesel running was it predicated on. The fact is they are only beefing up the engines by 35kw so its not going to add that much extra oomph over an 802 but because technical info is so secret squirrel these days you don't get to traction speed curves anymore to see how much difference there really is.

 

[43066]

So the MML south still won't be free of trains belching out CO2 NOxs and particulates even when the elctrification is complete to Market Harborough.

In relatively short order almost all trains operating on the route will be electrified south of Kettering (at least).

It surely can’t have escaped your notice that the bit of the Home Counties served by the Southern MML also has the M1 running through it? It won’t anytime soon be free of motor vehicles belching out various noxious substances in far more copious quantities than any railway vehicles can manage.

If environment is genuinely your concern, the railway is precisely the wrong way to look.

(It certainly isn’t my concern. If I had my wish, we would still be running HSTs ).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In relatively short order all trains operating on the route will be electrified south of Kettering (at least).

Still need to get the wires South of Bedford upgraded for 100mph+ but given these won't be appearing in passenger until May 24 by the looks of it they ought to have that done by then along with wires energised further north.

 

[AM9]

In relatively short order all trains operating on the route will be electrified south of Kettering (at least).

It surely can’t have escaped your notice that the bit of the Home Counties served by the Southern MML also has the M1 running through it? It won’t anytime soon be free of motor vehicles belching out various noxious substances in far more copious quantities than any railway vehicles can manage.

If environment is genuinely your concern, the railway is precisely the wrong way to look.

(It certainly isn’t my concern. If I had my wish, we would still be running HSTs ).

So the 4 x class 180s mentioned in post #1230 and confirmed in various other posts since then will run on electric south of Kettering then? That will be feat worth seeing.

 

[43066]

Still need to get the wires South of Bedford upgraded for 100mph+ but given these won't be appearing in passenger until May 24 by the looks of it they ought to have that done by then along with wires energised further north.

I didn’t realise a date had even been suggested for 110mph running on the juice south of Bedford? The 810s have… ahem… slipped somewhat. Don’t expect them anytime soon.

So the 4 x class 180s mentioned in post #1230 and confirmed in various other posts since then will run on electric south of Kettering then? That will be feat worth seeing.

I meant to say “almost all”, my bad. Duly edited.

The rest of my post still stands.

 

[class26]

I didn’t realise a date had even been suggested for 110mph running on the juice south of Bedford? The 810s have… ahem… slipped somewhat. Don’t expect them anytime soon.



I meant to say “almost all”, my bad. Duly edited.

The rest of my post still stands.

Isn`t it 125 mph running south of Bedford ?

 

[JamesT]

Isn`t it 125 mph running south of Bedford ?

“On the juice” is the critical part. Diesel trains can run at that speed currently, but the OHLE is not of a standard to support it. Hence work to upgrade it to allow faster.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The industry is costing a fortune to run and some costs could have been avoided across all operators if they just stuck to a standard design rather than creating their own variants leading to all the extra type testing with its associated cost and time penalty. I get they need a shorter underframe but the rest of it could have been left the same to minimise the approval timeline. Lumo showed how should be done just order the standard approved unit and change stuff that doesn't need type approval. Anyhow with the snail pace progress of the wires and the upgrading South of Bedford still in progress its not as if they would be able to exploit them effectively yet anyhow.

The 810s might be ideal when they arrive at EMR, but won't they have a short life as high-powered bi-modes once the wires reach Sheffield and the London end is upgraded?
Then the clamour will be for a new EMU fleet without all the diesel gubbins.
LNER (well, DfT) have sized their trains well with only enough bi-modes for the off-wires route network.
GWR had to fit diesel packs to their planned EMUs because of the lack of wires to Bristol/Oxford/Swansea, and that remains the situation.
But EMR will have the "wrong sort of train" once the wires reach Sheffield.
I know the gensets can be removed but that would be an utter waste of money.

 

[RobShipway]

The 810s might be ideal when they arrive at EMR, but won't they have a short life as high-powered bi-modes once the wires reach Sheffield and the London end is upgraded?
Then the clamour will be for a new EMU fleet without all the diesel gubbins.
LNER (well, DfT) have sized their trains well with only enough bi-modes for the off-wires route network.
GWR had to fit diesel packs to their planned EMUs because of the lack of wires to Bristol/Oxford/Swansea, and that remains the situation.
But EMR will have the "wrong sort of train" once the wires reach Sheffield.
I know the gensets can be removed but that would be an utter waste of money.

But the Diesel engines could be removed to be replace by battery packs in the future, as there is still likely to be places where the class 810's would not be able to be powered by AC overhead power. This would be the same with class 800, 802 and 805.

 

[91108]

The advantage of the bi-mode is that the trains can take non electrified diversions, be used on routes such as Lincoln (which I assume is well down the list of lines to be electrified), continue in service if the ohle fails, and be easily moved around non electrified areas of maintenance depots

 

[43074]

The 810s might be ideal when they arrive at EMR, but won't they have a short life as high-powered bi-modes once the wires reach Sheffield and the London end is upgraded?
Then the clamour will be for a new EMU fleet without all the diesel gubbins.
LNER (well, DfT) have sized their trains well with only enough bi-modes for the off-wires route network.
GWR had to fit diesel packs to their planned EMUs because of the lack of wires to Bristol/Oxford/Swansea, and that remains the situation.
But EMR will have the "wrong sort of train" once the wires reach Sheffield.
I know the gensets can be removed but that would be an utter waste of money.

There are plenty of planned and diversionary routes which they will work which are not currently planned to be electrified, e.g. there are several trains each day booked to run between Chesterfield and Sheffield via Barrow Hill, the Lincoln extensions, the Erewash Valley or Melton Mowbray diversions are not planned to be electrified at the moment etc. It might be an option to remove some of the diesel engines to better suit the demands of these routes rather than the need to be a 'high powered' bi mode.

 

[43066]

Isn`t it 125 mph running south of Bedford ?

Yes, I was thinking there of the 360s, which will be using the modified wires to run at their 110mph max speed south of Bedford initially. The 810s will indeed run at up to 125mph on the juice eventually.

 

[AM9]

The 810s might be ideal when they arrive at EMR, but won't they have a short life as high-powered bi-modes once the wires reach Sheffield and the London end is upgraded?
Then the clamour will be for a new EMU fleet without all the diesel gubbins.
LNER (well, DfT) have sized their trains well with only enough bi-modes for the off-wires route network.
GWR had to fit diesel packs to their planned EMUs because of the lack of wires to Bristol/Oxford/Swansea, and that remains the situation.
But EMR will have the "wrong sort of train" once the wires reach Sheffield.
I know the gensets can be removed but that would be an utter waste of money.

If the gensets are removed there'll either need to be weight dummies to replace them or the suspension will need adjustment.
By the time the route is fully electrified, I imagine that there will be a move to deploy a proper EMU like the oft dreamt of.in RUK, 'class 344', i.e. a straight 125mph end-door EMU. Much lower cost of acquisition and probably lower cost of ownership. I hesitate to say this, but class 397s would be eligible if CAF could fix their suspension faults. The only justification for the current class 80x designs in a mature electrified network would be where with ECTS, a major line might foreseeably be updated for 140mph running. The MML certainly isn't a candidate for that!

 

[BayPaul]

I don't know why people are so anti simply removing the diesels from the 810s once the route is fully wired, and come up with an overly elaborate cascade scheme instead. The trains are designed to be converted, the engines don't need to be scrapped, they can instead be cascaded, used as spares for other 80x trains, or have one or two stay in place for diversionary and rescue capability. I find it hard to believe that it would be a massive job to tweak the suspension. The length of the 810s makes them far more suitable to stay in place.

Yes it would be cheaper to electrify everything first, but the opportunity cost would be far higher than the relatively small additional cost of going for bi mode, even if only for the medium term, which is presumably why this decision was made.

 

[Prestige15]

Didn't EMR had a option to purchase further more 810's like most other new stocks ordered?

 

[43066]

If the gensets are removed there'll either need to be weight dummies to replace them or the suspension will need adjustment.
By the time the route is fully electrified, I imagine that there will be a move to deploy a proper EMU like the oft dreamt of.in RUK, 'class 344', i.e. a straight 125mph end-door EMU. Much lower cost of acquisition and probably lower cost of ownership.

Difficult to see why, though, given that that is still years away, and the 810s will have been long since built and brought into service by that point.

I don't know why people are so anti simply removing the diesels from the 810s once the route is fully wired, and come up with an overly elaborate cascade scheme instead. The trains are designed to be converted, the engines don't need to be scrapped, they can instead be cascaded, used as spares for other 80x trains, or have one or two stay in place for diversionary and rescue capability. I find it hard to believe that it would be a massive job to tweak the suspension. The length of the 810s makes them far more suitable to stay in place.

Yes it would be cheaper to electrify everything first, but the opportunity cost would be far higher than the relatively small additional cost of going for bi mode, even if only for the medium term, which is presumably why this decision was made.

There are still various diversionary routes which will remain unnelectrified. Albeit once the main Sheffield - London rouge is electrified it’s true there will be very little diesel running.

 

[class 9]

Which fleet is expected into service first, EMRs or Avanti's?

 

[Trainbike46]

Which fleet is expected into service first, EMRs or Avanti's?

EMR was ordered and built first, so would be expected first, but then again, all will depend on how the approvals process goes

 

[baz962]

Isn`t it 125 mph running south of Bedford ?

I had heard both 110 and 125 figures quoted. During the very hot weather I had a chance to speak to a OHLE team leader who was doing an inspection and I asked him the question. I can only go on what he told me and his answer was that 110 was still a couple of years off and that 125 might not even happen.

 

[QSK19]

Which fleet is expected into service first, EMRs or Avanti's?

Looking like Avanti’s will win the race. Their stock is more standardised than EMR’s; and in any case, I seem to remember seeing somewhere (probably the Avanti stock thread) a photo of one of the Avanti AT300s prepped for static testing. Combine that with the 810s’ entry into service being pushed back to 2024 and I’d put a fiver on Avanti.

 

[WiredUp]

I had heard both 110 and 125 figures quoted. During the very hot weather I had a chance to speak to a OHLE team leader who was doing an inspection and I asked him the question. I can only go on what he told me and his answer was that 110 was still a couple of years off and that 125 might not even happen.

125mph will happen for 810's most likely north of Luton. Appreciate you are going off what he said - but he's wrong.

 

[800001]

Looking like Avanti’s will win the race. Their stock is more standardised than EMR’s; and in any case, I seem to remember seeing somewhere (probably the Avanti stock thread) a photo of one of the Avanti AT300s prepped for static testing. Combine that with the 810s’ entry into service being pushed back to 2024 and I’d put a fiver on Avanti.

Correct, the first Avanti is complete mechanically, no seats fitted yet, this is currently undergoing static testing at Newton Aycliffe, before starting further testing on September.
Avanti early part of fleet are using shells which were manufactured over 2 years ago.

EMR are being built from scratch at Aycliffe. There is really good progress but these are not advanced enough to of started static testing yet.

 

[Trainbike46]

Correct, the first Avanti is complete mechanically, no seats fitted yet, this is currently undergoing static testing at Newton Aycliffe, before starting further testing on September.
Avanti early part of fleet are using shells which were manufactured over 2 years ago.

Did they just have spare bodyshells lying around?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did they just have spare bodyshells lying around?

I think it was always planned for about half the Avanti 805/7 bodyshells to come from Kasado, with Newton Aycliffe manufacturing the later vehicles.

 

[Kneedown]

Albeit not that many staff. Only one link of Derby drivers sign them. There may be more TMs.

Two links.
The main "big link" (which was itself recently formed from two smaller links, and the Lincoln link.
That leaves only the Sheffield, and Local as the two main links that don't sign them.