Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[Bletchleyite]

What network of hugely expensive equipment? TVMs and ticket gates?

ToD is something like 20 years old, and so is based on dedicated servers etc. Of course a replacement e-ticket reprint service need not do that.

If the railway won't do that, then paid printer-fitted Internet access terminals as you see in airports might, of course.

 

[Haywain]

What network of hugely expensive equipment? TVMs and ticket gates?

Yes, TVMs to print CCST tickets are an expensive anachronism and CCST requires gates with moving parts. The continuation of ToD stifles any innovation in what TVMs might look like in the future to the detriment of both operators and customers. The sooner ToD is gone the better.

 

[tomuk]

Yes, TVMs to print CCST tickets are an expensive anachronism and CCST requires gates with moving parts. The continuation of ToD stifles any innovation in what TVMs might look like in the future to the detriment of both operators and customers. The sooner ToD is gone the better.

So its the magstripe that's the problem then. Well remove it from CCST and replace it with an Aztec code. 'anachronism' 'stifles any innovation' 'detriment' is just ridiculous language.

ToD is something like 20 years old, and so is based on dedicated servers etc. Of course a replacement e-ticket reprint service need not do that.

If the railway won't do that, then paid printer-fitted Internet access terminals as you see in airports might, of course.

Well transfer it to some new servers then, the same ones hosting the apps and websites hell let go full out whizz bang and stick it in the cloud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, TVMs to print CCST tickets are an expensive anachronism and CCST requires gates with moving parts. The continuation of ToD stifles any innovation in what TVMs might look like in the future to the detriment of both operators and customers. The sooner ToD is gone the better.

Would we not be better saying "the sooner CCST is gone, the better"?

I have, in the thread above, suggested that I would introduce older, non techie relatives to online stuff using an iPad, but that's no good for going through gates with an e-ticket, so if you really want to get ticketing out of stations you do still need a means of printing stuff at the station, even if it is a much simpler kiosk type arrangement with an A4 laser printer or till roll printer inside.

 

[Dougal2345]

Similarly the fear of “what might happen if… “ is not reflected in the D&P section where hardly any cases have arisen as a result of a phone running out of battery life or other perceived difficulties.

Regarding the battery life issue, is there no possibility of building RFID chips into mobile 'phones?

That way the mobile could write a purchased e-ticket to its internal RFID, which could then still be read and used, even when the 'phone battery is dead...

 

[_toommm_]

Regarding the battery life issue, is there no possibility of building RFID chips into mobile 'phones?

That way the mobile could write a purchased e-ticket to its internal RFID, which could then still be read and used, even when the 'phone battery is dead...

NFC is that low-powered it can be read still when a phone is 'dead' (or that the phone maker reserves a tiny battery percentage for it to be enabled, I'm not sure which one it actually is). Once my iPhone dies, I can still use Apple Pay. Perhaps tickets could be incorporated into the NFC reader?

(This is wildly speculative though, and as with anything Apple, it'll be many years behind other tech companies).

 

[Hadders]

Ok, but why is TOD being removed? The TVMs are still there, the website and even app is still there to order the ticket. What benefit is the railway getting from removing the ToD option?
Not sure what relevance airlines have and why should the level of ambition be passengers coping.

Sadly it's not that easy. You can't just leave the hardware and software untouched, it needs maintaining. Siftware needs updating at regular intervals to stop it becoming a security risk. At some point the software, and the hardware it runs on becomes obsolete.

Would we not be better saying "the sooner CCST is gone, the better"?

I think you're right. People interpret getting rid of CCST as getting rid of all paper tickets, which is not the case.

I do think it's a shame that CCST tickets are going as they're a perfect size. It would've been great if the Aztec code and the accompanying printed information could've fitted onto a CCST sized ticket. I think the next best thing will be for paper till roll tickets to become twice the size of CCST so that when folded in half will be the correct size to fit into a credit card sized wallet.

 

[tomuk]

if you really want to get ticketing out of stations

This seems an odd desire, removing the means to pay for service from the location of said service.

you do still need a means of printing stuff at the station, even if it is a much simpler kiosk type arrangement with an A4 laser printer or till roll printer inside.

Is not said device not a TVM? By the time you've vandal proofed your laser printer and chromebook* (*delete and replace with any suitable commodity hardware) you've got a TVM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Twice a CCST may not be a bad plan. Other than Ticketer ones with the barcodes, bus tickets are normally about CCST size, and they are incredibly easy to lose as they are so thin.

This seems an odd desire, removing the means to pay for service from the location of said service.

You want to reduce it, the same way cinemas for example have successfully done, as that saves money.

Is not said device not a TVM? By the time you've vandal proofed your laser printer and chromebook* (*delete and replace with any suitable commodity hardware) you've got a TVM.

It is rather simpler than a full blown TVM.

 

[tomuk]

Sadly it's not that easy. You can't just leave the hardware and software untouched, it needs maintaining. Siftware needs updating at regular intervals to stop it becoming a security risk. At some point the software, and the hardware it runs on becomes obsolete.

All IT systems need maintaining it goes without saying. Why isn't the function of ToD being transferred into the new hardware and software? All the components are still there. It just sounds like a policy decision, collecting tickets isn't seen as innovative therefore no budget available.

I think you're right. People interpret getting rid of CCST as getting rid of all paper tickets, which is not the case.

I do think it's a shame that CCST tickets are going as they're a perfect size. It would've been great if the Aztec code and the accompanying printed information could've fitted onto a CCST sized ticket. I think the next best thing will be for paper till roll tickets to become twice the size of CCST so that when folded in half will be the correct size to fit into a credit card sized wallet.

There is a loads of space on a CCST sized ticket to fit a code and the basic ticket information, detailed ticket data could be looked up in the ticketing system using the ticket no.

 

[alistairlees]

ToD was created about 20 years ago, long before the advent of smartphones and eTickets. At the time ToD filled a market need very well - it enabled people ordering online to get tickets much more quickly (the only alternative being posting the tickets).

ToD tickets are actually placed in a central database - let's call it "Live Sales Management" or "LSM" - and it is from there that the TVM collects the ticket details when it is provided with a CTR reference.

Getting rid of ToD enables quite a few costs to be eliminated:
- the LSM central system (including its support and helpdesk; the need to upgrade it / maintain it; and the variety of connection / outage issues that it regularly has)
- the need to design and maintain TVMs with the ToD feature. There are even ToD-only machines ("ToDlers") which can be done away with entirely. This does add to the cost of TVMs
- the need for TIS suppliers to interact with the ToD system and provide a whole bundle of additional use cases (such as different email templates, additional support for customers)
- the need for ticket office machines to be able to handle ToD, and for staff to be trained in these and also to deal with the various ToD faults / issues (like having the wrong payment card)
- the need to do a lot of ToD-only accounting, which is the cause of endless reconciliations for retailers and TOCs alike. This arises because, when a ToD ticket is sold by a retailer, it does not create an instant liability, because the ticket is not 'issued'; instead this goes into a suspense account and the liability is only created when the ticket is issued (i.e. collected from the machine). This creates a whole bunch of related issues, e.g. when the ToD is refunded, when it is not collected before ticket expiry (which is then sorted out by an automated sweep process), and so on.

Removal of ToD will also enable a source of customer stress (for many customers it's stressful about whether the machine to enable them to collect their tickets will work; whether they will have the right card; or whether there will be a queue - ToD causes that stress to be maintained until the point of the collection (usually at the same time as the journey), rather than just eliminating it at the point of purchase (by providing an eticket straight away).

ToD is also useless for any products that needs different stock or security (e.g. season tickets a month or longer in duration).

eTickets now account for between 50% and 100% of ticket purchases online (the amount varying by retail channel). The main causes of ToD continuing all involve London (crossing London; Travelcards; tickets to / from London Zones) - no doubt these will all be resolved (in terms of offering them to eTickets or finding alternatives) very soon. The market imperative that caused the birth of ToD in the first place (see my first paragraph) is long since gone.

Expect to see retailers migrating away from ToD over the next few years, and ToD being discontinued entirely soon after.

 

[sor]

I suppose the ideal "wallet sized" replacement is the smartcard, with the added benefit of being reusable too, and it already has the facility to be loaded by a smartphone thus avoiding any concerns over a broken machine at the station. Keeps all of the potential issues (aside from damaged cards) in the train company's domain too.

NFC is that low-powered it can be read still when a phone is 'dead' (or that the phone maker reserves a tiny battery percentage for it to be enabled, I'm not sure which one it actually is). Once my iPhone dies, I can still use Apple Pay. Perhaps tickets could be incorporated into the NFC reader?

(This is wildly speculative though, and as with anything Apple, it'll be many years behind other tech companies).

That same power reserve mode also works with other types of tickets, including "travel cards". Presumably that would mean that if the will were there, Apple could be convinced to implement ITSO on it or something. They explicitly claim that TfL and several bus companies support it in the payment card mode.

Google doesn't appear to have an equivalent function, even on their own phones, so it's not Apple who are behind here.

 

[tomuk]

ToD was created about 20 years ago, long before the advent of smartphones and eTickets. At the time ToD filled a market need very well - it enabled people ordering online to get tickets much more quickly (the only alternative being posting the tickets).

ToD tickets are actually placed in a central database - let's call it "Live Sales Management" or "LSM" - and it is from there that the TVM collects the ticket details when it is provided with a CTR reference.

Getting rid of ToD enables quite a few costs to be eliminated:
- the LSM central system (including its support and helpdesk; the need to upgrade it / maintain it; and the variety of connection / outage issues that it regularly has)
- the need to design and maintain TVMs with the ToD feature. There are even ToD-only machines ("ToDlers") which can be done away with entirely. This does add to the cost of TVMs
- the need for TIS suppliers to interact with the ToD system and provide a whole bundle of additional use cases (such as different email templates, additional support for customers)
- the need for ticket office machines to be able to handle ToD, and for staff to be trained in these and also to deal with the various ToD faults / issues (like having the wrong payment card)
- the need to do a lot of ToD-only accounting, which is the cause of endless reconciliations for retailers and TOCs alike. This arises because, when a ToD ticket is sold by a retailer, it does not create an instant liability, because the ticket is not 'issued'; instead this goes into a suspense account and the liability is only created when the ticket is issued (i.e. collected from the machine). This creates a whole bunch of related issues, e.g. when the ToD is refunded, when it is not collected before ticket expiry (which is then sorted out by an automated sweep process), and so on.

Removal of ToD will also enable a source of customer stress (for many customers it's stressful about whether the machine to enable them to collect their tickets will work; whether they will have the right card; or whether there will be a queue - ToD causes that stress to be maintained until the point of the collection (usually at the same time as the journey), rather than just eliminating it at the point of purchase (by providing an eticket straight away).

ToD is also useless for any products that needs different stock or security (e.g. season tickets a month or longer in duration).

eTickets now account for between 50% and 100% of ticket purchases online (the amount varying by retail channel). The main causes of ToD continuing all involve London (crossing London; Travelcards; tickets to / from London Zones) - no doubt these will all be resolved (in terms of offering them to eTickets or finding alternatives) very soon. The market imperative that caused the birth of ToD in the first place (see my first paragraph) is long since gone.

Expect to see retailers migrating away from ToD over the next few years, and ToD being discontinued entirely soon after.

That is actually very interesting detail to read and I suppose in a world of at best WAP browser phones, IE6 and Windows XP, ToD was the solution. But it does seem that getting rid of the option to collecting tickets is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater of getting rid of the legacy ToD system. I suppose nobody likes it because it is a shared system and the individual TOCs are more interested in their own systems. What was this I heard about GBR and a single system?

Out of interest you mentioned the "Live Sales Management" central database. I assume then that the other ticket sales are decentralised and there is no central database of tickets? The ticket data only being gathered for reservation or revenue allocation reasons.

 

[Haywain]

Would we not be better saying "the sooner CCST is gone, the better"?

No, I meant exactly what I said.

I think you're right. People interpret getting rid of CCST as getting rid of all paper tickets, which is not the case.

No, it isn’t the case, anymore than getting rid of CCST means getting rid of all paper tickets. But getting rid of CCST goes hand in hand with getting rid of ToD.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There is a loads of space on a CCST sized ticket

A credit card size ticket sized ticket?

 

[tomuk]

Here is a credit card for example oh and what about this actual CCST ticket?

 

[miklcct]

Has anyone thought of using smartcard-based ticket as a replacement of magnetic-strip ticket, like what has been done in the Hong Kong and Shenzhen metro networks?

For example, a single journey ticket on the Shenzhen Metro is a coin-sized token which you tap onto the gateline when entering, and inserted into it when exiting. Similarly in Hong Kong as well, although the ticket is still credit-card sized as to be compatible with the existing barriers.

The benefit, claimed by MTR, is that such smart ticket is much more durable and can be reused for many more times after being recycled at the exit barrier compared to a magnetic-strip ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

Haywain and I have the same role at the same TOC, and from a meeting I attended last week I believe that Cross London eTickets are starting to gain momentum

That is going to cause terrible queues at barriers on the underground with people (like me) who can't orientate their tickets on the scanners.

Coming into St Pancras yesterday with an e-ticket on a pdf on a phone yesterday, I completely failed to scan the ticket on the barrier reader as the phone kept rotating or the code scrolled off the page. I went to the desk to ask to be let through. Two passengers evading their fare went through the wide gate in the process.

 

[Haywain]

Two passengers evading their fare went through the wide gate in the process.

Corrected that for you.

 

[sheff1]

You never hand your phone to them either. Why would you do that?

One of the first times I tried an eticket it failed to open the barrier at Warrington Central. I called the barrier attendant for assistance and he tried to take my phone from my hand. Obviously I refused to hand it over which seemed to irritate him. He did eventually grudgingly open the gate.

On the question of opening one's wallet to take out a paper ticket - I never keep my tickets in my wallet, instead I use a National Rail branded plastic ticket holder which was obviously procured in great numbers and handed out at stations for the express purpiose of holding rail tickets .

 

[tomuk]

That is going to cause terrible queues at barriers on the underground with people (like me) who can't orientate their tickets on the scanners.

Coming into St Pancras yesterday with an e-ticket on a pdf on a phone yesterday, I completely failed to scan the ticket on the barrier reader as the phone kept rotating or the code scrolled off the page. I went to the desk to ask to be let through. Two passengers evading their fare went through the wide gate in the process.

Maybe getting an agreed standard for a wallet app would be an idea. A standard android equivalent to Apple Wallet and PKPASS would be a good start.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe getting an agreed standard for a wallet app would be an idea. A standard android equivalent to Apple Wallet and PKPASS would be a good start.

Like Google's Wallet app?

 

[MikeWh]

Why not do away with the expensive stations and trains too?

What a ridiculous thing to say!

Just because a feature customers like is expensive is no reason to remove it.

But it is. Away from London very few journeys still use TOD. When the cost gets disproportionately expensive then perhaps those who 'like it' would be prepared to pay the costs. A 10% levy on any tickets issued might do it, until the levy switches all but the most stubborn and they have to pay double.

My client still processes cheques and accepts orders over the phone even tho there is a website. Becuse the customers like it. And would buy elsewhere if not offered.

Cheques are becoming rarer and rarer and will eventually go. Schools increasingly use internet solutions (eg parentpay) and tradespeople increasingly use portable card machines connected to mobiles (eg izettle). Phones are less of an issue, especially when people often need to discuss requirements first, but the order will rapidly go into the same system as used by the website so duplication is not so problematic.

 

[tomuk]

Like Google's Wallet app?

Can you stick an ticket in it like Apple Wallet? If so what's the other poster doing messing about with a pdf?

 

[JonathanH]

If so what's the other poster doing messing about with a pdf?

I bought the ticket from the EMR website and was sent an email with pdfs. The experience would obviously have been better using an application where the ticket is an application and centered on the phone screen, but I didn't investigate loading this particular ticket in this way.

However, the principle of having to turn a phone over to scan the ticket, on ticket gates, is a nonsense, rather than holding the screen face up under a reader, like on Ticketer machines on buses.

Perhaps face up scanning is how it should be done on the underground.

 

[sheff1]

Yes, TVMs to print CCST tickets are an expensive anachronism and CCST requires gates with moving parts. The continuation of ToD stifles any innovation in what TVMs might look like in the future to the detriment of both operators and customers. The sooner ToD is gone the better.

If so, I wonder why in the not too distant past a whole new bank of ToD only machines were installed at Sheffield station.

 

[tomuk]

I bought the ticket from the EMR website and was sent an email with pdfs. The experience would obviously have been better using an application where the ticket is an application and centered on the phone screen, but I didn't investigate loading this particular ticket in this way.

I wasn't criticizing you rather the 'railway'. They are switching from magstripe CCST system with a level of throughput at gates to a slower barcode system. Which seems to be hobbled by disparate ways of delivering said barcoded ticket to the device and presenting it at the barriers.

 

[JonathanH]

I wasn't criticizing you rather the 'railway'. They are switching from magstripe CCST system with a level of throughput at gates to a slower barcode system. Which seems to be hobbled by disparate ways of delivering said barcoded ticket to the device and presenting it at the barriers.

Yes, face up scanning of phones would be a big step forward.

 

[sheff1]

Away from London very few journeys still use TOD.

There always seem to be people using the aforementioned ToD only machines when I pass through Sheffield station.

 

[johncrossley]

It is probably interesting to note that some countries have already got rid of ToD and others never had it in the first place.