Invincible
Member
From https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ass-707-trains-in-boost-to-fleet-availability
Looks like SWR just extended the existing 707 lease rather than sublease.
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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway
- Thread starter WWTownEnth
- Start date
Looks like SWR just extended the existing 707 lease rather than sublease.
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R
RailUK Forums
You say "just" but it's dated for January 2022 and describes extending the lease until this month
The press release says:
Which implies a subleasing agreement.
I was very interested to read in the Class 730 thread that 5 of them had now been accepted, yet the 701s seem no closer to acceptance.
43096
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It is a sub-lease. The lease has been with Southeastern for some time and SWR has been sub-leasing them back.
Elorith
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Deleted
Goldfish62
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That's correct. They're sublease from SE to SWR.
So I wonder why their cab plug doors don't fly open when the train is moving.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Not sure after 4358 posts anyone knows definitively and everyone closely connected with the trains must have signed the official secrets act as nothing leaks out and to cap it all i don't see the railway really challenging what earth is going on.
As somebody with no inside information, who has read most of the thread and all trade press reports I can find, this is the clearest short summary I can make about what seems to be wrong with the Class 701s:
- There are a number of physical and software defects with the trains. As a result SWR does not believe Derby has supplied "a train that performs to specification", Alstom, which purchased Bombardier and the Derby plant half-way through the order, also accepts that there are manufacturing defects with the trains. The union, Aslef, isn't comfortable with the stock either.
- The initial delay in delivery was attributed to "software development". The trains were supposed to be delivered in 2019, but Bombardier set the date back to "mid-2020". Indeed, it did begin supplying a few units to SWR for testing from June 2020 and, as of summer 2022 perhaps around 40 units (?) are believed to have been delivered.
- However, as noted above, SWR is not happy with the performance of the units in testing. It does not appear that the software problems on the units have all been solved. One issue with the few in-service trains is that their automatically operated cab doors do not appear to be closing properly.
- The defects are not limited to software. Many of the problems noted seem to stem from what appears to be a new bespoke design for a drivers' cab on the 701 units. The cab has reportedly been reconfigured from other Aventras to meet operational requirements of having different length units, so that doors line up with assistance points on platforms.
- One change from other Aventras is that plug-style doors have been used on the cabs instead of hinged doors on other Aventra units. These are the doors having problems outlined above. Additionally, the drivers' cab apparently does not meet the spec as that agreed with Aslef drivers' union reps when the units were commissioned, and is considered to be too cramped and not fit for purpose.
- Another issue looming over the delivery of the fleet is the possibility of exploding capacitors. This has apparently happened in service on other Aventra units operated by other TOCs, but is yet to do so on a SWR unit. However, the risk appears to be significant enough that Alstom has warned workers not to go within 2m of them at ground level. The root cause of this problem has not been revealed, but Alstom is apparently adding extra bracing to the capacitors.
- Large-scale SWR driver training on the 701s has not commenced - test runs are being undertaken by GBRf drivers. This would probably make sense if the cab is to be reconfigured, or at least if drivers are unhappy with the cab.
I'm sure there are errors in this and things missing! I'd be very grateful if someone with more knowledge could add or subtract from this list.
- There are a number of physical and software defects with the trains. As a result SWR does not believe Derby has supplied "a train that performs to specification", Alstom, which purchased Bombardier and the Derby plant half-way through the order, also accepts that there are manufacturing defects with the trains. The union, Aslef, isn't comfortable with the stock either.
- The initial delay in delivery was attributed to "software development". The trains were supposed to be delivered in 2019, but Bombardier set the date back to "mid-2020". Indeed, it did begin supplying a few units to SWR for testing from June 2020 and, as of summer 2022 perhaps around 40 units (?) are believed to have been delivered.
- However, as noted above, SWR is not happy with the performance of the units in testing. It does not appear that the software problems on the units have all been solved. One issue with the few in-service trains is that their automatically operated cab doors do not appear to be closing properly.
- The defects are not limited to software. Many of the problems noted seem to stem from what appears to be a new bespoke design for a drivers' cab on the 701 units. The cab has reportedly been reconfigured from other Aventras to meet operational requirements of having different length units, so that doors line up with assistance points on platforms.
- One change from other Aventras is that plug-style doors have been used on the cabs instead of hinged doors on other Aventra units. These are the doors having problems outlined above. Additionally, the drivers' cab apparently does not meet the spec as that agreed with Aslef drivers' union reps when the units were commissioned, and is considered to be too cramped and not fit for purpose.
- Another issue looming over the delivery of the fleet is the possibility of exploding capacitors. This has apparently happened in service on other Aventra units operated by other TOCs, but is yet to do so on a SWR unit. However, the risk appears to be significant enough that Alstom has warned workers not to go within 2m of them at ground level. The root cause of this problem has not been revealed, but Alstom is apparently adding extra bracing to the capacitors.
- Large-scale SWR driver training on the 701s has not commenced - test runs are being undertaken by GBRf drivers. This would probably make sense if the cab is to be reconfigured, or at least if drivers are unhappy with the cab.
I'm sure there are errors in this and things missing! I'd be very grateful if someone with more knowledge could add or subtract from this list.
Last edited:
Invincible
Member
From January Analysis: Paul Clifton
New £1bn fleet of South Western Railway trains delayed
Rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris says the 90 trains are not expected in service until early summer.
www.bbc.co.uk
Alstom have been concentrating on getting the Elixabeth line 345s and also 720s into service, and are now starting to resolve issues and testing with the 701s.
Goldfish62
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From what I've read over the past couple of years that seems to be a good summary of the issues that have arisen, but not necessarily current issues.
For example, the cab was not a completely bespoke design as delivered, but the driver's desk was completely standard Aventra. For whatever reason the desk layout was not acceptable to ASLEF, despite it being acceptable to ASLEF on the 345, 710 and 720 and was therefore redesigned to a special SWR spec. Later units were delivered with this revised cab layout, with earlier units going away for modification.
I'll refer to comments from ASLEF a few months ago that, unlike some people on this thread, they don't expect every single fault to be rectified before acceptance, but has a list of certain key ones. That the cab door was stiff to operate and certain software faults were highlighted. If the cab was still an issue I'm sure they would have highlighted this.
Incidentally, can sliding plug doors have been present on units since the 1980s. It's hardly radical!
If I remember correctly, although the desk was the same, the smaller cab meant that the driver's elbow would hit the rear bulkhead when pulling back on the power/brake controller.
Some of the issues were due to poor planning of the cab layout, like the cup holder; seems trivial, however it had been placed high up (above shoulder height) to the side of the driver. Not the best place.
In the words of a particular supermarket; 'every little helps', towards one big mess of a train.
Snow1964
Established Member
Don’t the West Midlands units also have sliding cab doors and haven’t some of those been accepted.
I am confused by doors being stiff to operate, are they manual, rather than power operated. And if manual surely those instances of doors being open are operating errors by train crew, rather than a design fault.
Or have I misunderstood and they are power doors, with what must be stiff control switches, or is it handles that are seizing up due to lack of use. Sorry if this sounds naïve but the separate descriptions by different posters don’t seem to tally.
Goldfish62
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Desiros and 458s have power cab doors but still require a good shove.
Thanks for the info. Yes, I can understand those things being unacceptable!
Interesting, thank you - I hadn't come across this aspect
dorsetdesiro
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The WMT 730s seem to have the shorter cab ends like the 701s however with end gangways included. I would have thought the 730 driver comfort would be worse with more restricted views also the driver's area much smaller due to the gangway - so the 730's cab end design get green lighted before the 701s?
py_megapixel
Established Member
Do they have a "power assist" mechanism where one starts opening the door manually and then a motor takes over? Or do they only close automatically, and have to be opened manually?
Goldfish62
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I have no idea. Maybe others can help.
Desiros they certainly have to be opened manually. The first initial movement so that the door is no longer flush with the bodyside is automatic, then it's manual from then. Closure is fully automatic.
Elorith
Member
458 is semi manual. Press a button (or turn a key from the outside) to "release" the door, then manually open it all the way.
To close is the same process in reverse (pull it to the "close" position then press a button or turn a key and the door gets pulled in so it is flush and locks).
Juniper Driver
Established Member
I see many slam the doors on the 458's and it makes me cringe.Then again I was told off once because I used to do the same.Apparently it can bugger up the micro switch.Elorith has explained how to do it correctly.
Goldfish62
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Makes the whole carriage shake when it's done violently!
Its an awful design
Desiro123
Member
Desiro doors are air operated. They are released by pushing a button, but then have to be fully opened manually. The reason they are stiff to open is that the air in the actuating cylinder doesn't automatically fully vent when the door is released. When you're opening them, you're also forcing the remaining air out of the cylinder. Closing is fully automatic at the push of a button.
Funny isnt it. Later electrostars/turbostars which are a Bombardier product of course are of semi manual plug door design (air assisted to initially push the door outwards) and need to be slammed shut like older electrostars/turbostars. They seem to be extemely efficient.
Why dont designers learn lessons.
Why dont designers learn lessons.
Dont have that residual air problem on electrostars... although they are manual close. Seems to be a vast array of door designs.... another downside to our fragmented railway.
Am I correct in thinking that that system was first used - in GB at least - on the 319s?
Goldfish62
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It must indeed be getting to some sort of record. I wonder if we'll get to the stage that the whole class is delivered without a single one having entered service. I can quite see that happening.