Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Ilovetrains43]

Will these TfW sets be repainted? They look weird in Grand Central livery.

 

[XAM2175]

Will these TfW sets be repainted? They look weird in Grand Central livery.

1) They're not all in GC livery.
2) The extent of our current knowledge can be found by reading back just a few pages in the thread.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

1) They're not all in GC livery.
2) The extent of our current knowledge can be found by reading back just a few pages in the thread.

Yeah sorry some are still in the old Virgin livery. My mistake. Thanks tho!

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this Traction and Rolling stock thread to discuss Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as London to Edinburgh fares then please start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

thanks

 

[sd0733]

Should be some proving runs to Manchester next week, Monday via Warrington and chat moss, Tues-thurs into the shed. No times yet for Monday but should appear over the next few days, roughly the same 10am starts off ATC when they appear on RTT. Tues and Wednesday are 0935 off Crewe CS to Piccadilly

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Should be some proving runs to Manchester next week, Monday via Warrington and chat moss, Tues-thurs into the shed. No times yet for Monday but should appear over the next few days, roughly the same 10am starts off ATC when they appear on RTT. Tues and Wednesday are 0935 off Crewe CS to Piccadilly

Any more planned runs on the usual 3V78 and 3W79 paths?

 

[sd0733]

Any more planned runs on the usual 3V78 and 3W79 paths?

Not yet. They should be back though before long.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Not yet. They should be back though before long.

That's excellent thanks for letting us know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

The Manchester run via Warrington today was cancelled. Anyone know if it will run soon and whether the Manchester shed runs will occur tomorrow?

 

[Thomas6187]

67008+4 MK4s+82220 made its way into Manchester Piccadilly from Crewe this morning. Should be more visits over the course of the week

 

[SuperLuke2334]

67008+4 MK4s+82220 made its way into Manchester Piccadilly from Crewe this morning. Should be more visits over the course of the week

Glad it did run today! Hopefully it shows signs of 1 step closer to being ready for December.

 

[daodao]

Why is everyone on this forum so enthusiastic about the introduction of 30 year old clapped out diesel locomotive hauled rolling stock on the Marches line? I recall when such aged rolling stock ran on this line and was replaced by new Super Sprinter dmus in 1988 (initially class 155 and subsequently class 158). These were a vast improvement and also significantly faster. Did TfW not order enough class 197 dmus for all the services on this line? They would have been better; similar class 195 and 331 trains seem to be a significant improvement compared to previous trains used by Northern Rail. I note from posts above that the locomotive-hauled trains will have to miss some major stops because the platforms are too short for them and/or they have a lower permitted maximum speed, so will lose time compared to the remaining dmu services if they stop too often.

 

[GWVillager]

Why is everyone on this forum so enthusiastic about the introduction of 30 year old clapped out diesel locomotive hauled rolling stock on the Marches line? I recall when such aged rolling stock ran on this line and was replaced by new Super Sprinter dmus in 1988 (initially class 155 and subsequently class 158). These were a vast improvement and also significantly faster. Did TfW not order enough class 197 dmus for all the services on this line? They would have been better; similar class 195 and 331 trains seem to be a significant improvement compared to previous trains used by Northern Rail. I note from posts above that the locomotive-hauled trains will have to miss some major stops because the platforms are too short for them and/or they have a lower permitted maximum speed, so will lose time compared to the remaining dmu services if they stop too often.

TfW had enough 197s to operate all services on the Marches line, and still will I believe, but they chose to bring in Mark 4s as they will be a considerable upgrade compared to them. It has to be remembered that these things are somewhat subjective, and the majority (vast majority perhaps) of passengers will much prefer the Mark 4s. They're hardly clapped out anyway, they've been quite well maintained and they've a good amount of life left in them.

The Mark 4s will hardly miss 'major stops', there are definitely going to be some omissions but the timetables will still work out faster than what is currently offered. The lower speed limits are irritating, but they're only over a limited section of track and on some stretches they'll be able to operate faster than the DMUs.

 

[43102EMR]

Why is everyone on this forum so enthusiastic about the introduction of 30 year old clapped out diesel locomotive hauled rolling stock on the Marches line? I recall when such aged rolling stock ran on this line and was replaced by new Super Sprinter dmus in 1988 (initially class 155 and subsequently class 158). These were a vast improvement and also significantly faster. Did TfW not order enough class 197 dmus for all the services on this line? They would have been better; similar class 195 and 331 trains seem to be a significant improvement compared to previous trains used by Northern Rail. I note from posts above that the locomotive-hauled trains will have to miss some major stops because the platforms are too short for them and/or they have a lower permitted maximum speed, so will lose time compared to the remaining dmu services if they stop too often.

More capacity than the existing 175s and a far superior replacement than the newer 197s - I’d happily see the 175s be replaced by the Mk4s than the 197s in all honesty, a solid intercity product that provides a quality ride.

 

[xotGD]

Why is everyone on this forum so enthusiastic about the introduction of 30 year old clapped out diesel locomotive hauled rolling stock on the Marches line?

Because some of the posters here are actually rail enthusiasts. And want to travel on proper trains.

Would be even better with Mark 1 stock and Type 3 traction, but we can't have everything.

 

[sd0733]

Because some of the posters here are actually rail enthusiasts. And want to travel on proper trains.

Would be even better with Mark 1 stock and Type 3 traction, but we can't have everything.

Not just enthusiasts either, loads of passengers comment on the 'posh new trains'. They have their issues but they certainly aren't clapped out and are a big step up from anything else including 197s.

 

[craigybagel]

And even getting aside from the whole argument about how good they are as trains, the acquisition of the extra sets is enabling TfW to release the 170s to EMR.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Did TfW not order enough class 197 dmus for all the services on this line?

They did order enough 197s for the Marches line (sadly) but the original plan had class 170s for Pembrokeshire and Heart Of Wales services. The 170s are now going to EMR instead, meaning TfW needed additional stock (the mark 4s) and it makes more sense to send the 197s to Pembrokehire than the mark 4s.

Why is everyone on this forum so enthusiastic about the introduction of 30 year old clapped out diesel locomotive hauled rolling stock on the Marches line? I recall when such aged rolling stock ran on this line and was replaced by new Super Sprinter dmus in 1988 (initially class 155 and subsequently class 158). These were a vast improvement and also significantly faster.

I've no idea what the hauled stock that was replaced by 155s was like, but a key factor now is that a single class 197 cannot be considered an improvement over a single class 175 for long-distance use. Similarly if TfW were able to change their plans tommorow (they can't sadly, the mark 4s that were spare have been scrapped) and put 5-carriage mark 4s on all services between Swansea and Manchester instead of 5-car 197s they could legitimately claim a vast iimprovement in the standard of passenger accomodation provided, because the 197s (apart from the decision to specify unit end gangways (which is the one thing TfW have done right with that fleet)) are just the cheapest off-the-shelf unit available.

TfW had enough 197s to operate all services on the Marches line, and still will I believe, but they chose to bring in Mark 4s as they will be a considerable upgrade compared to them.

Indeed, the mark 4s are a considerable upgrade over 197s - the 197s (aside from the increase from 3 coaches to 5 on the MAN-SWA route) being a considerable downgrade compared to 175s.

 

[daodao]

I've no idea what the hauled stock that was replaced by 155s was like

Would be even better with Mark 1 stock and Type 3 traction

Old Mark 1 stock and Type 3 traction (class 33 and latterly class 37 diesel-electric locomotives) were provided for the relatively sparse Cardiff-Crewe service up to 1988; 2 trains per day were extended to Manchester Piccadilly from 1984, usually hauled by class 81/82 ac electric locomotives north of Crewe.

As in 1988, I would not anticipate that 30 year old carriages are a better provision for this route than a brand new modern dmu.

 

[19Gnasher69]

A well-maintained thirty years old Mercedes is still a more pleasant travelling environment than a brand new modern Transit van. Simple.

 

[Bald Rick]

A well-maintained thirty years old Mercedes is still a more pleasant travelling environment than a brand new modern Transit van. Simple.

For some people!

I‘d prefer the van

 

[Bob Price]

Many people only care about whether they can get a seat, if the train runs on time, and if it is vaguely comfortable. They don't care if its in a new unit, old unit or engine and coaches. In reality the engine coaches set will impress a number of people as they are spacious and comfortable. They probably won't even care that one set is black and orange.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many people only care about whether they can get a seat, if the train runs on time, and if it is vaguely comfortable. They don't care if its in a new unit, old unit or engine and coaches. In reality the engine coaches set will impress a number of people as they are spacious and comfortable. They probably won't even care that one set is black and orange.

I'm sure I read (possibly in Modern Railways) they are now going to paint them into actual TfW livery.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Many people only care about whether they can get a seat, if the train runs on time, and if it is vaguely comfortable. They don't care if its in a new unit, old unit or engine and coaches. In reality the engine coaches set will impress a number of people as they are spacious and comfortable. They probably won't even care that one set is black and orange.

Regardless of what many people may think - and I don’t know what you’re basing this knowledge on - having a little pride in the fleet would be the foundation for a well-run, pleasant service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regardless of what many people may think - and I don’t know what you’re basing this knowledge on - having a little pride in the fleet would be the foundation for a well-run, pleasant service.

To be fair I suspect, and I know I'm a critic of them, "normals" will be perfectly happy with 197s, too. They do look quite nice inside at least, even if I personally dislike Fainsa Sophias and bad window alignment. 195s are similarly quite popular. I have heard stuff like "wow, this is nicer than the London train" (meaning the Pendolino they just got off).

 

[berneyarms]

If the full on-board catering service with freshly cooked meals is extended to the Cardiff-Manchester Mark 4 services in due course, then I think that is reason alone to view them as superior to any DMU operated service.

 

[daodao]

The new DMUs won’t and can’t offer freshly cooked full meals.

And is such provision a realistic prospect? I can't imagine much demand for a restaurant car on this route nowadays. There has been a deliberate wholescale withdrawal of restaurant cars across most of the British railway network in recent years. They were provided on certain North and West long distance expresses to the West Country until the 1960s and (as I personally recall) on the Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot Motorail service in 1968.

 

[berneyarms]

And is such provision a realistic prospect? I can't imagine much demand for a restaurant car on this route nowadays. There has been a deliberate wholescale withdrawal of restaurant cars across most of the British railway network in recent years. They were provided on certain North and West long distance expresses to the West Country until the 1960s and (as I personally recall) on the Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot Motorail service in 1968.

They’re in place already on the three return workings each day between Cardiff and Holyhead on the Mark 4 sets.

 

[Envoy]

I take it that restaurants will also be available on the Manchester to south Wales services?

 

[berneyarms]

I take it that restaurants will also be available on the Manchester to south Wales services?

If the Holyhead-Cardiff route is anything to go by, then hopefully yes. But I doubt it will happen at the start, probably only when they launch First Class on the route.

 

[Rhydgaled]

However, this is digressing. My main point is that the introduction of the class 155 dmus to provide an hourly service in 1988 was a significant improvement over the infrequent trains with decrepit mark 1 carriages used until then.

The frequency is a seperate issue. There are no plans to reduce the service, it will still be hourly when the mark 4s take over half the trips.

Does a Mk3 coach with dodgy pressure sealing provide a more pleasant travelling environment through Shugborough Tunnel than a pendolino? From (very recent) experience, I'd say no.

Pendolino vs Mark 3 is at least comparaing a long InterCity train with a long InterCity train, with neither having underfloor diesel engines. Even then, once outside the tunnel the choice is much less clear since you can probably see out of the mark 3 whereas the windows on a Pendolino are tiny and combine that with the tilt and all you can see is sky out of one side and blured ballast on the other when going round a corner.

At TfW the comparison is 5 coaches of InterCity stock (mark 4) versus 2 or 3 coaches of regional express DMU (class 175) or 5 coaches of outer-suburban DMU with interrogation centre seats that I'd rather see confined to inner-suburban operations (class 197). Sure, brand-new 5 coach regional express bi-modes would be nice but, of the three, the mark 4s are by far the least worst option with the bonus of no underfloor engines.

They’re in place already on the three return workings each day between Cardiff and Holyhead on the Mark 4 sets.

Is the menu on the lunch-time mark 4 services between Holyhead and Cardiff similar to that on the evening runs?