A bird strike damaged the train

[Adlington]

BBC Norfolk reports:

Passengers were stuck on a broken down train for about three hours after a bird strike damaged the vehicle. Greater Anglia said the 15:00 BST service [on 23 Sept] from London Liverpool Street to Norwich was halted near Diss, after the strike caused "a fault that could not be rectified".
The damage took out the electrics, leaving people on "a dead train" with no water or access to toilets.
Greater Anglia updated information on its website, saying: "A bird strike has caused a fault with the air compressor on the train."

A fault with the air compressor took out the electrics on the whole train? How come?

 

[JamesT]

BBC Norfolk reports:

A fault with the air compressor took out the electrics on the whole train? How come?

Isn’t the pantograph raised pneumatically? Presumably a loss of air will drop it leaving the train without power once any batteries run out.

 

[800001]

BBC Norfolk reports:

A fault with the air compressor took out the electrics on the whole train? How come?

Or could affect the brakes? No air, no brake?

 

[physics34]

Isn’t the pantograph raised pneumatically? Presumably a loss of air will drop it leaving the train without power once any batteries run out.

That sounds about right.

I find it agravating that toilets cant be used in these conditions. They must come up with a strategy to deal with this... not acceptable.

 

[Adlington]

Isn’t the pantograph raised pneumatically? Presumably a loss of air will drop it leaving the train without power once any batteries run out.

Makes sense. I haven't thought of that

 

[Howardh]

That sounds about right.

I find it agravating that toilets cant be used in these conditions. They must come up with a strategy to deal with this... not acceptable.

Agreed. As one with postrate issues I can manage an hour and then what do I do?

 

[dk1]

That sounds about right.

I find it agravating that toilets cant be used in these conditions. They must come up with a strategy to deal with this... not acceptable.

You can still use them but they wont flush or issue tap water. Cant see any way around changing that.

 

[43066]

That sounds about right.

I find it agravating that toilets cant be used in these conditions. They must come up with a strategy to deal with this... not acceptable.

Agreed. As one with postrate issues I can manage an hour and then what do I do?

I suppose the priority really has to be keeping lighting/heating on for as long as possible in case the train is stranded at night, in freezing conditions etc. Allowing the toilets to keep operating would reduce the time those other services last for.

 

[Howardh]

I suppose the priority really has to be keeping lighting/heating on for as long as possible in case the train is stranded at night, in freezing conditions etc. Allowing the toilets to keep operating would reduce the time those other services last for.

If they open the outside doors to allow pax to "go" then that lets in cold air, so the benefit is lost? One solution, and I think this works for women too, is a little bag called a "Traveljohn" which when used, the liquid turns into a non-smelling gel and can be disposed of safely. If trains routinely carried a dozen of those (they take little space) the problem might be avoided. Due to my issues I regularly carry one with me in my bag - just in case.

 

[43066]

If they open the outside doors to allow pax to "go" then that lets in cold air, so the benefit is lost? One solution, and I think this works for women too, is a little bag called a "Traveljohn" which when used, the liquid turns into a non-smelling gel and can be disposed of safely. If trains routinely carried a dozen of those (they take little space) the problem might be avoided. Due to my issues I regularly carry one with me in my bag - just in case.

Having the toilets unpowered but still useable, while unpleasant, gets around this. The downside of those bags is that, even if the TOCs were willing to provide/replenish them, they don’t deal with the problems of people with Chron’s, IBS etc.

Of course there are many trains on the network (and LU) with no toilets whatsoever!

 

[dciuk]

You can still use them but they wont flush or issue tap water. Cant see any way around changing that.

My toilet at home does not require electricity to flush. I think it uses technology called gravity!

 

[Sleepy]

and when train was taken to Norwich some arse refused to leave the train delaying it from moving to depot until police had dealt with him ! Why get aggressive about something that was caused by wildlife??

 

[dk1]

My toilet at home does not require electricity to flush. I think it uses technology called gravity!

Everything new train wise is complicated.

 

[choochoochoo]

My toilet at home does not require electricity to flush. I think it uses technology called gravity!

Where do you propose putting a big tank of water above the carriages to enable a flush mechanism to operate using gravity ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does every thread about disruption have to descend into the toilet debate?

If you have a medical situation then you have my sympathy, but there are ways and means of mitigating those problems (some of which are mentioned above). Aside of turning every seat on the train into a commode, a long stranding will cause tanks to fill eventually. Once those tanks are full, they're full- there aren't any poo-fairies to magically empty them.

 

[Lost property]

Be interesting to learn what bird managed to cause such damage, during it's brief, but passionate, relationship with the train, and why, seemingly, there are no standby / alternate systems in the designs that allow systems to carry on operating.

 

[43066]

Be interesting to learn what bird managed to cause such damage, during it's brief, but passionate, relationship with the train, and why, seemingly, there are no standby / alternate systems in the designs that allow systems to carry on operating.

If it ruptures the main res, this can usually be worked around by isolating the affected vehicle, but depends on stock, where the rapture has taken place versus where the compressor(s) are located etc.

If the strike actually damaged the compressor itself then even that can often be worked around, but “it depends” and is likely to be a slow process (potentially a lot longer than the batteries will last for).

Clearly in this situation a rescue was felt the best way to resolve the issue.

 

[nkt1]

Toilet issues aside, three hours seems a tad excessive.

 

[E27007]

Be interesting to learn what bird managed to cause such damage, during it's brief, but passionate, relationship with the train, and why, seemingly, there are no standby / alternate systems in the designs that allow systems to carry on operating.

Air and Amps, the Lifebood of a Train. Air powers so many systems, the Braking system for one. No Air == No Brake Release . My guess the bird strike smashed a drain cock on the Main Res, dumping all the Air and leaking all the flow of the Compressor into the Res

 

[43066]

Toilet issues aside, three hours seems a tad excessive.

Does it?

How quickly do all the train rescues you organise tend to happen?

 

[E27007]

BBC Norfolk reports:

A fault with the air compressor took out the electrics on the whole train? How come?

The Compressor is powered by an Electric Motor, if the bird has entered a critical area of the compressor, , then a short circuit or even a fire to deal with.
I do not know the procedure but dropping the Pantograph to remove power might be the first step of dealing with a fire outbreak.

 

[TheEdge]

Air and Amps, the Lifebood of a Train. Air powers so many systems, the Braking system for one. No Air == No Brake Release . My guess the bird strike smashed a drain cock on the Main Res, dumping all the Air and leaking all the flow of the Compressor to recharge. breakers

It was something along those lines, into the coupler head and popped everything open as I understand it.

Toilet issues aside, three hours seems a tad excessive.

I know this forum loves to dunk on the railways and declare it should have been an easy fix and done in 15 minutes but this was a petty decent operation to be honest.

It was recognised as a serious issue by the driver and fleet very quickly (modern stock phoning home is very good for this), a fitter was dispatched from Norwich on the first available up train to get dropped off, along with staff from Crown Point by road. Fitter declared it as a failure pretty fast once they were on site. 1Z99 was mobilised at Norwich in short order and was waiting at its signal for the call to be made about an evacuation or rescue, on site staff called it as a rescue, 1Z99 went off, coupled and dragged it back.

There wasn't really any huge delays in the process last night, or at least delays (travel time/coupling time) that can practically be reduced.

 

[43066]

I know this forum loves to dunk on the railways and declare it should have been an easy fix and done in 15 minutes but this was a petty decent operation to be honest.

I do wonder if those same posters when, say, being told by their surgeon than an operation will take three hours, would just accept it. Or would they suck their teeth and demand to know why it can’t be done in 15 minutes?

It was recognised as a serious issue by the driver and fleet very quickly (modern stock phoning home is very good for this), a fitter was dispatched from Norwich on the first available up train to get dropped off, along with staff from Crown Point by road. Fitter declared it as a failure pretty fast once they were on site. 1Z99 was mobilised at Norwich in short order and was waiting at its signal for the call to be made about an evacuation or rescue, on site staff called it as a rescue, 1Z99 went off, coupled and dragged it back.

There wasn't really any huge delays in the process last night, or at least delays (travel time/coupling time) that can practically be reduced.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[E27007]

Health and Safety implementation has reduced the role of the Driver in repairing a failure out on the road. twenty years ago, Drivers were taught to to change a failed 750V DC shoe fuse on slam door stock with the juice still live, "Paddling Up" then unbolting and changing a metal fusible strip on the solebar
Nowadays Drivers are not taught the procedure, working with live 750V DC is for "Fitter Electricians Only" .
That incident in Norfolk may have been fixable by application of common sense by the Driver, but H&S decides whether the person is qualified and certificated to carry out the repair.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Where do you propose putting a big tank of water above the carriages to enable a flush mechanism to operate using gravity ?

In the roof. It is where tanks of water for toilets were put on trains until about 20 years ago

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Be interesting to learn what bird managed to cause such damage, during it's brief, but passionate, relationship with the train, and why, seemingly, there are no standby / alternate systems in the designs that allow systems to carry on operating.

The size of the bird isn't necessarily a critical factor, more where it hits, what it hits, and how hard it hits. There are probably multiple bird strikes every day with the vast majority doing no damage other than to the bird.

 

[driver9000]

My toilet at home does not require electricity to flush. I think it uses technology called gravity!

Not a fair comparison as your toilet at home is most likely connected to the sewer system. Until fairly recently train toilets were also worked by gravity but it became unreasonable to dump it directly to the track so an air or electric pump forces it down to a tank through non return valves to prevent the smell coming back up. No air or power equals no pumps and load shedding shuts down higher powered equipment to preserve lights and ventilation.

 

[43066]

There are probably multiple bird strikes every day with the vast majority doing no damage other than to the bird.

Indeed. There are often multiple strikes per journey for higher speed stock. It’s very rare for this kind of damage to happen as a result of a bird strike. It has certainly been known to happen when larger animals are hit.

 

[TheEdge]

That incident in Norfolk may have been fixable by application of common sense by the Driver, but H&S decides whether the person is qualified and certificated to carry out the repair.

No it wasn't.

 

[GB]

Does it?

How quickly do all the train rescues you organise tend to happen?

i don’t know the specifics of this incident but failed passenger trains blocking the GE are usually rescued in less than 3 hours in my experience.