GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[TurboMan]

...and route clearance east of Maidenhead which there were also reported to be no plans to do.

Greenford would require training Paddington drivers, and AFAIK there are no plans to do so.

But plans change. The 80x fleet was supposed to be a direct replacement for HSTs with just GWR HSS drivers being trained. But now, even Par drivers are learning them.

So I wouldn't rule out Greenford (or anything else) as a possibility for 769s. We'll see what happens with the 230 fast charge trial, which at the moment rules out Padd drivers learning 769s as there is no scope for release for training on both. But who knows what might happen?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2022 ==

Are the right answers. Stopping in the bay at Greenford in the right place and still getting the signal sighting is also an issue for 4 x 20m. It looks OK but it isn't.

The differential for the Bourne End was known about and was supposed to be sorted by now.

NR haven't shifted at all on the MU restriction (which also applies to the relief lines east of Tilehurst). But then the focus is very much on introducing 769 on the North Downs, so it's on the back burner at the moment.

 

[JN114]

The signal's a little way off the end of the platform though. I've known worse! Mind you, the buffer stops lights are on a post before you get to the stops, so it depends how much of that 83m is usable without taking out the post.

Very familiar with the Greenford branch thanks TurboMan (very very much inside my area of professional interest)

I promise you that you’d have to move the signal for sighting purposes (which would be out of cost scope). Then there’s training release issues with Paddington drivers, route clearance East of Maidenhead…

Never say never, but I remain skeptical they’ll ever enter service on the North Downs; never mind anywhere else.

 

[craigybagel]

But plans change. The 80x fleet was supposed to be a direct replacement for HSTs with just GWR HSS drivers being trained. But now, even Par drivers are learning them.

So I wouldn't rule out Greenford (or anything else) as a possibility for 769s. We'll see what happens with the 230 fast charge trial, which at the moment rules out Padd drivers learning 769s as there is no scope for release for training on both. But who knows what might happen?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2022 ==

That's a fair point, plans do indeed change. But it's a fairly big issue that would need overcoming - which when combined with the infrastructure issues and the fact dedicated 230s are on the way for the branch, there does seem little likelihood of it happening any time soon.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Considering they were originally supposed to enable 387 units to go for HeX conversion and then, via a turbo cascade, release 12 x 150 units to replace Pacers up north, they have long ago lost their original purpose.

If the proposed extra West services ever get canned or are delayed further, they won't have a great future.

 

[Invincible]

Yep, there's a run today. Although timetabled to stop at intermediate stations (to test an actual schedule?) it clearly didn't stop at most of them.

Realtime Trains | 3O10 0915 Reading Traincare Depot to Redhill | 14/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 3O10 0915 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Redhill on 14/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And here's the run back.

Realtime Trains | 3V11 1113 Redhill to Reading | 14/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 3V11 1113 departure from Redhill to Reading on 14/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks, Is it daily? Could not find the run today on real-time trains?

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks, Is it daily? Could not find the run today on real-time trains?

Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

 

[TurboMan]

Very familiar with the Greenford branch thanks TurboMan (very very much inside my area of professional interest)

In what context, as a driver?

I promise you that you’d have to move the signal for sighting purposes (which would be out of cost scope). Then there’s training release issues with Paddington drivers, route clearance East of Maidenhead…

None of which is insurmountable in time. Unless of course you actively look for reasons not to do something, which frustratingly seems to be a common attitude on the railway. Yes, there is no specific plan to run 769s on Greenfords at present (mostly because of everything else that is going on such as driver training on 230 and ETCS L2 for Stage B), but it has been suggested (admittedly informally) as a possible future use of 769s. And based on other GWR projects, with their tendency for scope-creep way beyond the original brief, there is no real reason whatsoever that running 769s on Greenfords could not happen in the future. If it facilitates a wider rolling stock cascade, and moving the signal proves to be necessary then the money will be found to move that signal, put in a co-acting signal, put a miniature banner repeater on the platform, whatever is necessary. The biggest obstacle to that is habitually looking for reasons not to do something which stifles the innovation, creativity, and drive to move forward.

Never say never, but I remain skeptical they’ll ever enter service on the North Downs; never mind anywhere else.

Then I'd be more than happy to have a bet on it with you as it's closer to happening than you might think. The 6 units chosen for the intro to service are ready (bar some minor work to passenger seating to address a potential finger trap hazard), and driver training should have started a couple of weeks ago, but it's the wider IR issues around driver pay etc. which have got in the way.

...dedicated 230s are on the way for the branch

There is a time-limited trial (initially a year but extendable if necessary) to test the fast-charging equipment on one unit, but there is no guarantee it will go any further than that. Personally, I hope it does, as I think the battery 230 is a good product and has a lot of potential.
.

 

[JN114]

In what context, as a driver?

I don't hold driver competency no, but I do have to know platform lengths and other such restrictions in my job; I've had a dozen or so cab rides over the years to help reinforce and refresh that knowledge and I previously lived adjacent to and used the branch on a daily basis a number of years ago.

None of which is insurmountable in time. Unless of course you actively look for reasons not to do something, which frustratingly seems to be a common attitude on the railway. Yes, there is no specific plan to run 769s on Greenfords at present (mostly because of everything else that is going on such as driver training on 230 and ETCS L2 for Stage B), but it has been suggested (admittedly informally) as a possible future use of 769s. And based on other GWR projects, with their tendency for scope-creep way beyond the original brief, there is no real reason whatsoever that running 769s on Greenfords could not happen in the future. If it facilitates a wider rolling stock cascade, and moving the signal proves to be necessary then the money will be found to move that signal, put in a co-acting signal, put a miniature banner repeater on the platform, whatever is necessary. The biggest obstacle to that is habitually looking for reasons not to do something which stifles the innovation, creativity, and drive to move forward.

I agree, once you overcome those obstacles; there is no reason that you couldn't run 769s on the Greenford branch. But let's be realistic a second – to date these proposals only exist as informal suggestions. There are formal, costed proposals for other projects with solid business cases to back them up which are going nowhere at present. Once 769s on Greenford branch gets to that stage, then it warrants a place in this thread. Until then at best it's speculation; at worst it's misleading for impressionable readers who take what is written as gospel and go update Wikipedia and the ilk off the back of what is posted here. The only firm plan is 6 units on the North Downs, subject to ASLEF approval and driver training.

Then I'd be more than happy to have a bet on it with you as it's closer to happening than you might think. The 6 units chosen for the intro to service are ready (bar some minor work to passenger seating to address a potential finger trap hazard), and driver training should have started a couple of weeks ago, but it's the wider IR issues around driver pay etc. which have got in the way.

Nah it wouldn't be a fair bet!

On the 6 being ready - does that include the Windscreen and Desk mods alluded to a handful of posts back? Because AFAIK those 6 units haven't been anywhere to have such work done yet; and it would rather undermine their suitability arguments if ASLEF agreed to train on them un-modified...

Don't get me wrong, I'd be very happy to see them actually in service. From my ride out on one last summer on the North Downs they were perfectly comfortable; and will provide a better environment and more space for passengers over the Turbos they'll displace (albeit at the expense of cementing in the slower timings we see today vs a couple years ago). And yes, it does appear to be just the final few Is to dot and Ts to cross before we're over the line. But they're not dotted and crossed yet; and won't be until at the very least the current industrial dispute is resolved - which despite a temporary ceasefire for the State Funeral, shows no sign of resolution whatsoever. And as time ebbs by the "need" for them diminishes and diminishes. The cascade they were procured for has already long happened, without them. Without a serious philosophical shift from government on railway financing the additional "West" services that need more Turbos releasing from the Thames Valley won't happen with revenue how it is. So the Turbos could stay at Reading... Meanwhile significant taxpayer funds are being paid in leasing costs for a fleet that a very small group of driver managers take out 3 days a week ECS for traction knowledge retention. And as was seen with the 442s at SWR at some point the DfT will suddenly and without warning lose patience.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It came over and back today calling at stations looking at RTT and kept to time. Just need to get on with driver training.

 

[Kite159]

and will provide a better environment and more space for passengers over the Turbos they'll displace

Have they been fitted with Air cooling similar to the Turbos in which they will displace? If not then to the passengers it will be a step backwards as they sit on the floor due to the low 3+2 seating.

At least the 3+2 seating on the Turbos are ok as they are wider.

 

[JonathanH]

Have they been fitted with Air cooling similar to the Turbos in which they will displace?

Yes - https://railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-769-information-discussion.174866/page-31#post-5184014

If not then to the passengers it will be a step backwards as they sit on the floor due to the low 3+2 seating.

It isn't that bad. Appreciate that the seats fitted to Turbos were a later improvement to the seats in earlier units.

 

[TurboMan]

I don't hold driver competency no, but I do have to know platform lengths and other such restrictions in my job; I've had a dozen or so cab rides over the years to help reinforce and refresh that knowledge and I previously lived adjacent to and used the branch on a daily basis a number of years ago.

Speaking as a driver, I wouldn't have too much of an issue with the signal at Greenford, even if it doesn't meet the current standard (and plenty of signals don't) - the bigger issue than distance from the cab is the fact that it's on the wrong side for no explicable reason (but then NR moved the signal in the bay at West Ealing from left to right for no explicable reason...).

On the 6 being ready - does that include the Windscreen and Desk mods alluded to a handful of posts back? Because AFAIK those 6 units haven't been anywhere to have such work done yet; and it would rather undermine their suitability arguments if ASLEF agreed to train on them un-modified...

Windscreens are done. The cab desk mod is being done at Reading TCD. The driver reps were shown a mock up on a unit being fitted with ASDO at Eastleigh a few months back and were happy with it subject to the mod actually being implemented on the fleet. There's a prototype power controller already at Reading with the corner cut away, ready to be fitted to a unit for a final demonstration and agreement, but that has been postponed indefinitely while the other IR issues are ongoing. I think it was agreed that training could begin once the mod programme began, even if it wasn't complete on all units, but that's likely to have gone out of the window too.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be very happy to see them actually in service. From my ride out on one last summer on the North Downs they were perfectly comfortable; and will provide a better environment and more space for passengers over the Turbos they'll displace (albeit at the expense of cementing in the slower timings we see today vs a couple years ago). And yes, it does appear to be just the final few Is to dot and Ts to cross before we're over the line. But they're not dotted and crossed yet; and won't be until at the very least the current industrial dispute is resolved - which despite a temporary ceasefire for the State Funeral, shows no sign of resolution whatsoever. And as time ebbs by the "need" for them diminishes and diminishes. The cascade they were procured for has already long happened, without them. Without a serious philosophical shift from government on railway financing the additional "West" services that need more Turbos releasing from the Thames Valley won't happen with revenue how it is. So the Turbos could stay at Reading... Meanwhile significant taxpayer funds are being paid in leasing costs for a fleet that a very small group of driver managers take out 3 days a week ECS for traction knowledge retention. And as was seen with the 442s at SWR at some point the DfT will suddenly and without warning lose patience.

I agree that talking about 769s on Greenfords is really just speculation at this stage (though running them to Bedwyn is definitely being given some thought...), but so is saying that the DfT will pull the plug and that 769s will never enter service.

The GWR MD was out on a 769 last Friday filming an update, and the message was very much that the trains are coming and soon (assuming you work for GWR, there's a link eto the film on the latest Connect). He wouldn't waste his time doing that if he wasn't certain that 769s will enter service. The unit on which his update was filmed has had an awful lot of effort put into it to improve the interior (the other units will follow) and looks really good now.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Speaking as a driver, I wouldn't have too much of an issue with the signal at Greenford, even if it doesn't meet the current standard (and plenty of signals don't) - the bigger issue than distance from the cab is the fact that it's on the wrong side for no explicable reason (but then NR moved the signal in the bay at West Ealing from left to right for no explicable reason...).

They should hold a sighting committee with a drivers representative before they do that.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Question - why would you "revert" to diesel operation on the Greenford branch after a year of environmentally more attractive battery operation ?.

"Turboman" will probably know this but how many GWR Paddington drivers would need training on class 769 ?

 

[JonathanH]

Question - why would you "revert" to diesel operation on the Greenford branch after a year of environmentally more attractive battery operation ?.

Isn't it easier to just keep the 230 going if it actually succeeds in running for a year, rather than trying to substitute a 165 or 769?

 

[TurboMan]

Isn't it easier to just keep the 230 going if it actually succeeds in running for a year, rather than trying to substitute a 165 or 769?

Well yes, I agree, but there is no guarantee the trial will be successful (I really hope it is, and am quite positive, although the fast charge equipment has literally only just been fitted to the train/infrastructure at Bletchley). And there is only one battery 230 at present which obviously will need exams/maintenance so won't be available 24/7 for the Greenfords. Where that maintenance will take place is still uncertain.

 

[RPI]

As @TurboMan states above, there was what seemed a positive update about 769's in the latest "Connect" (internal GWR newsletter)

 

[RobShipway]

Well yes, I agree, but there is no guarantee the trial will be successful (I really hope it is, and am quite positive, although the fast charge equipment has literally only just been fitted to the train/infrastructure at Bletchley). And there is only one battery 230 at present which obviously will need exams/maintenance so won't be available 24/7 for the Greenfords. Where that maintenance will take place is still uncertain.

I thought that the maintenance of the class 230 units was to happen either in a depot at Southall or somewhere near the Hitachi Depot on the GWML?

It is very positive news about the class 769 units. I look forward to sometime soon trying out the class 769 from Redhill to Reading sometime soon.

 

[Tony2]

Could anyone advise on the car types of the class 769s after conversion, related to the car numbers, and whether this is the same for 769/0, 769/4 and 769/9s?

Do any have first class provision?

77293
62892
71773
77292

Thanks for any info.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I thought that the maintenance of the class 230 units was to happen either in a depot at Southall or somewhere near the Hitachi Depot on the GWML?

VivaRail have an arrangement with Plassers nearby to use there facilities for exams.

 

[Invincible]

The 6 units chosen for the intro to service are ready (bar some minor work to passenger seating to address a potential finger trap hazard), and driver training should have started a couple of weeks ago, but it's the wider IR issues around driver pay etc. which have got in the way.

Mick Lynch: Talks with new transport secretary 'a good start'

The rail union leader says he is "more optimistic" about a breakthrough under a new transport secretary.

www.bbc.co.uk

A new start after Shapps?

 

[73128]

Considering they were originally supposed to enable 387 units to go for HeX conversion and then, via a turbo cascade, release 12 x 150 units to replace Pacers up north, they have long ago lost their original purpose.

If the proposed extra West services ever get canned or are delayed further, they won't have a great future.

But the DFT was looking for Castle HST replacements which the Turbos could (perhaps indirectly) provide?

 

[Snow1964]

Always worth reminding everyone of the class 769 target introduction dates (per page 335 of updated Franchise Agreement).

In 3 days time, first 4 units will be 2 years late.

25. Class 769 Units
25.1 In accordance with its obligations in Schedule 1.6 (The Rolling Stock) the Franchisee shall:
(a) enter into the Class 769 Units Lease by no later than the Start Date;
(b) use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that each Class 769 Unit specified in Column A of the table below is accepted by no later than the target date applicable to that Class 769 Unit specified in the corresponding row in Column B of the table below (each a “Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Date”); and
(c) use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that each Class 769 Unit specified in Column A of the table below enters into Unrestricted Passenger Carrying Service by no later than the target date applicable to that Class 769 Unit specified in the corresponding row in Column C of the table below (each a “Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date”)

Unit Number, Target Acceptance Date, Entry into Passenger service target date
1. 06/04/2020, 28/09/2020
2. 27/04/2020, 28/09/2020
3. 10/08/2020, 28/09/2020
4. 24/08/2020, 28/09/2020
5. 07/09/2020, 12/10/2020
6. 21/09/2020, 26/10/2020
7. 05/10/2020, 09/11/2020
8. 19/10/2020, 23/11/2020
9. 02/11/2020, 07/12/2020
10. 16/11/2020, 21/12/2020
11. 30/11/2020, 11/01/2021
12. 14/12/2020, 25/01/2021
13. 04/01/2021, 08/02/2021
14. 18/01/2021, 22/02/2021
15. 01/02/2021, 08/03/2021
16. 15/02/2021, 22/03/2021
17. 01/03/2021, 05/04/2021
18. 15/03/2021, 10/05/2021
19. 29/03/2021, 10/05/2021

subsequent sections 25.3 is all about damages etc if they are late.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013732/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

 

[craigybagel]

Always worth reminding everyone of the class 769 target introduction dates (per page 335 of updated Franchise Agreement).

In 3 days time, first 4 units will be 2 years late.





subsequent sections 25.3 is all about damages etc if they are late.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013732/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

And that's the updated target. Wasn't it originally Spring 2019?

 

[Deepgreen]

I thought that the maintenance of the class 230 units was to happen either in a depot at Southall or somewhere near the Hitachi Depot on the GWML?

It is very positive news about the class 769 units. I look forward to sometime soon trying out the class 769 from Redhill to Reading sometime soon.

Sometime soon x2?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==

Always worth reminding everyone of the class 769 target introduction dates (per page 335 of updated Franchise Agreement).

In 3 days time, first 4 units will be 2 years late.





subsequent sections 25.3 is all about damages etc if they are late.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013732/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

In a reply to a complaint to FGW about seven years ago (while I still commuted from Betchworth) I was told 'new' stock was about to be introduced which would ameliorate the issue of my complaint. That makes the public expectation of them far older than two years!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==

Could anyone advise on the car types of the class 769s after conversion, related to the car numbers, and whether this is the same for 769/0, 769/4 and 769/9s?

Do any have first class provision?

77293
62892
71773
77292

Thanks for any info.

All I can say is that the GWR ones I have seen have prominent first class markings - given the farcical saga of first class on the NDL, though, this may mean nothing.

 

[WizCastro197]

Sometime soon x2?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==


In a reply to a complaint to FGW about seven years ago (while I still commuted from Betchworth) I was told 'new' stock was about to be introduced which would ameliorate the issue of my complaint. That makes the public expectation of them far older than two years!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2022 ==


All I can say is that the GWR ones I have seen have prominent first class markings - given the farcical saga of first class on the NDL, though, this may mean nothing.

These First class markings are so badly done and the colour is atrocious.
Coach A markings could be done a lot better as well


I am seriously now confused what the point in having First Class on a train that isn't long distance configured? It just takes up so much needed space like on the North Downs where those trains do get really busy.


Reigate as probably has been flagged already has the power changeover signs for these trains already.

 

[JonathanH]

I am seriously now confused what the point in having First Class on a train that isn't long distance configured? It just takes up so much needed space like on the North Downs where those trains do get really busy.

There is more space on a 769 than a 3-car 165. I suspect the justification for first class continuing on the North Downs Line is for passengers making through journeys off the rest of the GWR network.

 

[WizCastro197]

There is more space on a 769 than a 3-car 165. I suspect the justification for first class continuing on the North Downs Line is for passengers making through journeys off the rest of the GWR network.

Oh, I understand now thanks. 165s are too tired now.

I hope 769 FC isn't a complete copy of Southern with a piece of fabric on a standard seat which says GWR First or something.

I am excited to try these new (well not completely) trains but I fear I won't be able to or at least not until about another 10 years.


Also will these trains run 3rd rail to Reigate from Redhill then switch or run diesel the whole way through?

 

[JonathanH]

I am excited to try these new (well not completely) trains but I fear I won't be able to or at least not until about another 10 years.

They are unlikely to be around in 10 years time! If they don't get into service soon, they will be too old to go into service, as they are already 35 years old.

(From the posts in this forum, a strategy of running down the clock on these units is one way of ensuring they don't enter service.)

Also will these trains run 3rd rail to Reigate from Redhill then switch or run diesel the whole way through?

The usual practice is for these trains to switch to third rail / diesel at Reigate.

I hope 769 FC isn't a complete copy of Southern with a piece of fabric on a standard seat which says GWR First or something.

They have the larger first class seats fitted when they were working with Thameslink.

 

[skyhigh]

These First class markings are so badly done and the colour is atrocious.

What's wrong with them. Nice and clear?