Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[GusB]

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[stevenedin]

Same as back in the early nineties. West Lothian passengers stayed loyal to SMT and LRT soon pulled out.

LCB is more or less dead.

It is probably their last shot at it to be honest. They will have seen McGill’s trialling electric buses etc and probably thought that they won’t be able to invest to compete but in the meantime the 67 reg buses are still newer than anything (I think) in the Eastern Scottish fleet currently.

The only issue I see now is passenger confidence may drop with all of these changes then finally dropping services. I have just noticed also that there is no link anymore from Eliburn Road to Whitburn another lost link.

 

[CN04NRJ]

This makes sense then. They will probably sell off all of 176-190 and possibly 195-199 as well unless they are required for other areas and the extra buses 579-590 will be to increase services to double decker for the X18, X27, X28 and 43

I have heard there will be fleet movements "soon", just canteen talk but if most of what I've heard is true there'll be a few surprises. I don't think the 13 plate B7RLEs will be going anywhere though.

As it's just rumours, small number of XLBs to Longstone, 926-936 withdrawn, 1-10 possibly also with 200s filling the gaps at Central. Possibly the red B7RLEs too back at city.

 

[overthewater]

The old saying "we told you so" really does come to mind, ( lets not get silly by saying people are pro this or anti that) It's the fact people refused to believe the warnings which caused all the trouble in the first place. We highlighted the issues Lothian created for itself and never resolved. I will say the two Edinburgh routes were the best performing and I think it was Jordan Adam who said this was the most likely outcome. Moving forward, I think McGills might try and expand within Livingston but just leave the city passengers to Lothian. I still think Lothian should go for the X40 tender when it comes up next year.

​

 

[computerSaysNo]

I don't think this service change is the start of Lothian "giving up" in West Lothian.
Someone mentioned a few days ago that they thought there would be a few more service changes both with Lothian and with McGill's, until services reached an equilibrium; I see this service change as the start of that. Lothian consolidating their services as Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Bathgate/Armadale to Whitburn, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston to Bathgate. This leaves the door open for McGill's to take Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Livingston to Whitburn or Bathgate/Armadale/Blackridge, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston/West Calder/Loganlea, plus local services as they see fit.

 

[gavin1985]

It's a shame about the 276 and 280, but if it does provide reliable services to the remaining routes with increased frequencies then it will be a good move in my opinion. This will help me getting to and from Newbridge with the X18 from Corstophine which has been shocking recently.

If this helps a 20 minute frequency stick then I’ll be a happy camper!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A combined frequency of every 20 minutes on the X27/X28 seems very confusing to me. That means you’re going to have those awkward 40 minute gaps on the X27. I would assume this means the X28 is dropping to hourly as well? It could of course be the other way round.

We’ve gone full circle and now we’re back pretty much where LC started in West Lothian in August 2018, minus the odd change here and there.

The 276 I’m not surprised is going, they’ve tried time and time again to make this work and every time it results in a change. The 280 I’m surprised is, and does raise serious questions as to where LC’s future lies as they’re now withdrawing on the routes run solely within West Lothian.

As for the fleet this surely frees up all of 176-190? With LC taking on all of 571-590 plus keeping some of the ex London’s, perhaps 1030-1049? 931-934 I’d expect to go as well.

 

[overthewater]

The Livingston Depot is now up for debate, you could easily move everything to Newbridge and run empty down the M8.

 

[Mickcloud9]

It’s clear the Livingston depot will be closing and sold on. They won’t continue to operate services that literally pass Longstone and Central out of Livingston. Sad times for all the hard work the drivers have put in and it’s rather disappointing to see how quickly they have hit the panic button. The 276/280 are busy routes. This is a cost cutting exercise and I wouldn’t be surprised if McGill don’t get first refusal on the depot given theirs is leased…

 

[Blindtraveler]

I never expected the revised 276 lasting anymore than 6-months and so it has proven. I can't comment on the 280. X27 is perhaps a little surprising but they've done well with it plugging the gaps where the train service reduced and providing a still relatively fast bus to Edinburgh from Livingston so this is probably where the money is. Some fleet upgrades might or might not be appreciated by passengers here. Speaking of fleet, if they withdraw one through LU2 10 I'm sure it will be a time of great celebration amongst everybody collar they are truly terrible buses and their slightly younger brothers and sisters are no better in my opinion.


Strongly suspect that in the next 18 months or so we will see an order of single deck vehicles of some kind which will finally see off the remaining b7rle across all operations

 

[Lothianbus703]

Is Livingston worth being open? The only thing that can't be changed that I can think of thats keeping it open is where the drivers live.

Does it not cost a lot of money to run a depot?

 

[Scott mac]

I see the bus industry experts are back out again.

 

[Mickcloud9]

What are you on about? Does this directly affect you?

A see the bus industry experts are back out again

Unfortunately it affects me and quite a few of my colleagues. I for one do not have the disposable income to run in and out of Longstone everyday for work. It already costs me £70 a week for fuel.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

This seems to affect many areas badly, with many lost links.

I can't speak for myself as it doesn't affect me but I imagine some passengers will be very disappointed, especially with the areas of the 276 no longer served.

I don't see it being the end of Lothian Country nor Livingston depot but the next year will be crucial for Lothian Country.

 

[JurassicMan]

East Lothian was a completely different set of circumstances given that First effectively just walked away leaving no bus service past Tranent/Seton Sands.

yes it was completely different with a different passenger base and loyalty that has meant many passengers stayed with first (for whatever reason).

 

[LothianBusesPh]

yes it was completely different with a different passenger base and loyalty that has meant many passengers stayed with first (for whatever reason).

Being from East Lothian went with Lothian when I could just because of unreliability etc but that probably comes with being an enthusiast, when I saw people they always wanted to go on the First Buses and 9 times out of 10 they broke down but that's a story for another time.

Lots of East Lothian customers seemed very loyal just because of familiarity, not because the buses were better. Nowadays if First Bus moved back to East Lothian and customers had the choice then more often than not East Coast Buses.

 

[JurassicMan]

I don't think this service change is the start of Lothian "giving up" in West Lothian.
Someone mentioned a few days ago that they thought there would be a few more service changes both with Lothian and with McGill's, until services reached an equilibrium; I see this service change as the start of that. Lothian consolidating their services as Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Bathgate/Armadale to Whitburn, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston to Bathgate. This leaves the door open for McGill's to take Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Livingston to Whitburn or Bathgate/Armadale/Blackridge, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston/West Calder/Loganlea, plus local services as they see fit.

Its over there is no magic money tree and the driver situation wont be changing anytime soon. lothian have to get back to the city and getting that sorted and east lothian is also there unchallenged. West Lothian was always a different challenge and its taken a toll on their other ventures.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I see the bus industry experts are back out again.

You dont have to be a bus industry expert to know that keeping a depot as big as Livingston open for 4 routes (2 at night) most likely isnt a good idea..

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Its over there is no magic money tree and the driver situation wont be changing anytime soon. lothian have to get back to the city and getting that sorted and east lothian is also there unchallenged. West Lothian was always a different challenge and its taken a toll on their other ventures.

The other difference with West Lothian is that it is in between Sterling, Edinburgh and Glasgow which makes it bound to have more operators, because East Lothian only really has Edinburgh it is very predictable what route they'd go.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

You dont have to be a bus industry expert to know that keeping a depot as big as Livingston open for 3 routes most likely isnt a good idea..

Just see how the next year plays out, Lothian likely won't give up on West Lothian just yet.

Although they might want to instate more routes next year if they want to keep it without a deficit

The drivers must be worried because of the scenario, not every driver can go from Longstone and back just to drive, they might need to have a driver swap location in Livingston if they were to do that just because in assistance with the Drivers.

 

[JurassicMan]

It’s clear the Livingston depot will be closing and sold on. They won’t continue to operate services that literally pass Longstone and Central out of Livingston. Sad times for all the hard work the drivers have put in and it’s rather disappointing to see how quickly they have hit the panic button. The 276/280 are busy routes. This is a cost cutting exercise and I wouldn’t be surprised if McGill don’t get first refusal on the depot given theirs is leased…

Can i ask where the "depot leased" theory comes from, leased from whom?
The depot in Livingston like the other 3 were part of the sale of the business along with the buses and the staff ,thats why no option was given to staff to transfer to First at any other location ,something quite BIZARRE in this day and age i'd say.

 

[overthewater]

Just see how the next year plays out, Lothian likely won't give up on West Lothian just yet.

I think your right these two routes are staying put for the long term.

 

[Mickcloud9]

Just see how the next year plays out, Lothian likely won't give up on West Lothian just yet.

I would be certain they already have. Once McGills get a foot hold with daysavers and weekly’s into Edinburgh it will be pointless running anything out from Edinburgh to West Lothian. Only route that will be saved is the 43. When McGill expand onto country routes it will be a dead horse

 

[Lothianbus703]

Just see how the next year plays out, Lothian likely won't give up on West Lothian just yet.

Im not suggesting they will give up on west lothian as they have stated the 4 routes (plus 2 night) that are staying are viable, I am suggesting that keeping Livingston open for years to come maybe isnt (for anybody who wants to call me anything I am stating my opinion) according to a friend around 30-35 buses will be needed so that may be a reason that there is a point in it being there.

 

[Mickcloud9]

The depot is leased from West Lothian Council. First Glasgow and Aberdeen had been paying the rent for the depot for the last year under the first operation.

 

[Lothianbus703]

Just see how the next year plays out, Lothian likely won't give up on West Lothian just yet.

Although they might want to instate more routes next year if they want to keep it without a deficit

The drivers must be worried because of the scenario, not every driver can go from Longstone and back just to drive, they might need to have a driver swap location in Livingston if they were to do that just because in assistance with the Drivers.

There used to be a service 109 to Longstone that ran for drivers from west lothian.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I would be certain they already have. Once McGills get a foot hold with daysavers and weekly’s into Edinburgh it will be pointless running anything out from Edinburgh to West Lothian. Only route that will be saved is the 43. When McGill expand onto country routes it will be a dead horse

I'm not saying it's not a dead horse, but Lothian will not pull out of West Lothian just yet, they will have to be smart, they might have to sort out the zones and fares situation too. The X18 should also serve Ratho (even just at peak times) and I'm sure more people will already use that route, especially if they serve the Station.

If they separate the X27/28 a tiny bit more to serve some areas that aren't currently regularly served by Lothian or any company (that suggestion is a more risky and unthoughtful suggestion.)

There used to be a service 109 to Longstone that ran for drivers from west lothian.

I know about that but I'm not sure if they would bring it back (hopefully they would if they did cancel the lease of Livingston.)

 

[Mickcloud9]

I'm not saying it's not a dead horse, but Lothian will not pull out of West Lothian just yet, they will have to be smart, they might have to sort out the zones and fares situation too. The X18 should also serve Ratho (even just at peak times) and I'm sure more people will already use that route, especially if they serve the Station.

If they separate the X27/28 a tiny bit more to serve some areas that aren't currently regularly served by Lothian or any company (that suggestion is a more risky and unthoughtful suggestion.)



I know about that but I'm not sure if they would bring it back (hopefully they would if they did cancel the lease of Livingston.)

Lothian own Livingston Depot, they purchased it from the council. They have done extensive renovations and I would imagine this would have added to the value for future sale

 

[muffy]

I would be certain they already have. Once McGills get a foot hold with daysavers and weekly’s into Edinburgh it will be pointless running anything out from Edinburgh to West Lothian. Only route that will be saved is the 43. When McGill expand onto country routes it will be a dead horse

Only problem is McGill's don't serve Kirknewton nor Calderwood on the A71 corridor, I regularly see up to 10 people at my bus stop in Calderwood when I have been going into the office.
What I have noticed on the X27 is there is regularly 1-3 vehicles missing during the day even on a Sunday so this could well be more of a manpower issue rather then a financial issue?

 

[Mickcloud9]

Only problem is McGill's don't serve Kirknewton nor Calderwood on the A71 corridor, I regularly see up to 10 people at my bus stop in Calderwood when I have been going into the office.
What I have noticed on the X27 is there is regularly 1-3 vehicles missing during the day even on a Sunday so this could well be more of a manpower issue rather then a financial issue?

I’m sure this will be addressed very soon. McGills will see this as a victory of sorts. You can bet they will start looking at new services to serve these areas. They are also trading drivers hand over fist. I defo cannot see Lothian Country lasting much longer. There would have been more of a reaction to McGills and their choice of stable colours if country were going to continue and grow in West Lothian