Will Mallard Ever Run Again?

[Class08Shunter]

Hey guys do you think Mallard would ever run again?

 

[StephenHunter]

No, I don't. It's fine as a museum piece, frankly.

 

[A0]

Hey guys do you think Mallard would ever run again?

Doubt it - a bit like Evening Star there are other members of its class as runners and Mallard's historical significance like Evening Star means it's unlikely to be risked.

 

[D6968]

No Chance.

 

[Lemmy282]

There was talk a few years ago, but NRM put forward that it would never run again as it was to be conserved because of its historical importance, which seems a bit daft as it was restored to running order jn the 1980's. I travelled behind it on a Scarborough Spa Express, in the days when you just paid an additional price on top of a regular ticket to Scarborough. I think Scarborough council paid a substantial sum towards its restoration which I think also included the turntable installation at Scarborough.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Doubt it - a bit like Evening Star there are other members of its class as runners and Mallard's historical significance like Evening Star means it's unlikely to be risked.

Wish it could run again though. If it ran again it would attract a lot of steam lovers. I'm sure it would attract plenty of people.

There was talk a few years ago, but NRM put forward that it would never run again as it was to be conserved because of its historical importance, which seems a bit daft as it was restored to running order jn the 1980's. I travelled behind it on a Scarborough Spa Express, in the days when you just paid an additional price on top of a regular ticket to Scarborough. I think Scarborough council paid a substantial sum towards its restoration which I think also included the turntable installation at Scarborough.

You're right about it being daft. Mallard should be overhauled. If it ran again plenty of people would turn up to see it. It would be like Flying Scotsman, Tornado and the other A4s. Plenty of people come to see them wherever they are.

 

[Trainlog]

Since the fact that the running status of the A4s has changed since the Great Gathering nearly 10 years ago where we only have one A4 running now in the form of Sir Nigel Gresley number 60007. I reckon its not a bad time to revisit this question.

A good way of looking at the argument is the fact that if current enthusiasts of a middle aged to younger demographic are keen to see Green arrow steam again but some of the older enthusiasts are still saying no due to the monoblock cylinder problem, then who is to say that Mallard wont return to the overhaul workshops at some point this century as no one would have seen Mallard steam and as it of a good build quality loco the arguments against it doing so might not stand up as well as they once did.

I think a more interesting compromise is probably one that many would shrug off easily, However hear me out! I reckon the NRM should do a collaborative project with the Canadian museum and steam Dominion of Canada, even if its for just one boiler ticket on UK rails.

If they where able to bring Dominion over here to be restored at a workshop at either Bury or York they can fix the damage that she has had since returning to Canada and then start undergoing the overhaul. The overhaul would be an opportunity to make sure that new pieces can be machined for other A4s that need new parts whether it be the Sir Nigel Gresley group or Hosking wishing to give Bittern one more go, and to fit her for mainline certification for UK rails.

My justification for doing so is that Dominion didn't really have a hugely interesting story prior to it being sent to the Canadian museum. She had to be restored at York because of her deterioration was rather bad and so that doesn't justify any complaints of having an overhaul, she will bring interest to the UK mainline scene in hopefully the same way Scotsman has done and give heritage railways revenue by hosting the engine for galas.

Having a member that hasn't steamed since the 60s verses a very significant member that only steamed for 2 in the late 80s and that many are still divided on doing so, i think Canada would be the best middle ground that could happen. Even ideas on its funding doesn't sound as bad as many might think of as enthusiasts on both sides of the Atlantic would support it. The Canadians will appreciate that she is running on home metals and that the Canadian museum will take better care of the engine when it returns as it will be more valuable than ever due to its story of running in the UK one last time, as for the UK i'm sure many will put some donations behind the project and i'm sure there will be some large donations from Hornby, Hosking and the NRM themselves.

Im sure many will not take this idea seriously and laugh it off as 'Armchair garbage' but lets remember we have seen much stranger things in the preservation movement happen and the risks made the locos more infamous. I'm pretty sure that there would be less documentaries on Scotsman if it weren't for the risks that Pegler and Mcalpine took for Scotsman's publicity. We went from the only new builds being just narrow gauge locos in the 70s to many seeing what Tornado might do next and the anticipation for the new P2 is huge because they showed it was possible.

At the end of the day would you rather see an Icon like Mallard steam for 3 years, fail on a mainline railtour and the NRM calling it quits with millions of pounds down the drain and back to square one? Or see a Loco come back from a long retirement and be a jumping on point to the hobby for new enthusiasts, make revenue for Heritage railways and tourism, and to be in a much better state for running in as the risk are much less due to its not as historically significant as Mallard?

TLDR: The Mallard argument seems like it will never end and its not impossible to steam again when new generations come across her and go against current tradition and do so, Dominion might be an interesting short term fix that might satisfy both sides of the debate for the meantime.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Since the fact that the running status of the A4s has changed since the Great Gathering nearly 10 years ago where we only have one A4 running now in the form of Sir Nigel Gresley number 60007. I reckon its not a bad time to revisit this question.

A good way of looking at the argument is the fact that if current enthusiasts of a middle aged to younger demographic are keen to see Green arrow steam again but some of the older enthusiasts are still saying no due to the monoblock cylinder problem, then who is to say that Mallard wont return to the overhaul workshops at some point this century as no one would have seen Mallard steam and as it of a good build quality loco the arguments against it doing so might not stand up as well as they once did.

I think a more interesting compromise is probably one that many would shrug off easily, However hear me out! I reckon the NRM should do a collaborative project with the Canadian museum and steam Dominion of Canada, even if its for just one boiler ticket on UK rails.

If they where able to bring Dominion over here to be restored at a workshop at either Bury or York they can fix the damage that she has had since returning to Canada and then start undergoing the overhaul. The overhaul would be an opportunity to make sure that new pieces can be machined for other A4s that need new parts whether it be the Sir Nigel Gresley group or Hosking wishing to give Bittern one more go, and to fit her for mainline certification for UK rails.

My justification for doing so is that Dominion didn't really have a hugely interesting story prior to it being sent to the Canadian museum. She had to be restored at York because of her deterioration was rather bad and so that doesn't justify any complaints of having an overhaul, she will bring interest to the UK mainline scene in hopefully the same way Scotsman has done and give heritage railways revenue by hosting the engine for galas.

Having a member that hasn't steamed since the 60s verses a very significant member that only steamed for 2 in the late 80s and that many are still divided on doing so, i think Canada would be the best middle ground that could happen. Even ideas on its funding doesn't sound as bad as many might think of as enthusiasts on both sides of the Atlantic would support it. The Canadians will appreciate that she is running on home metals and that the Canadian museum will take better care of the engine when it returns as it will be more valuable than ever due to its story of running in the UK one last time, as for the UK i'm sure many will put some donations behind the project and i'm sure there will be some large donations from Hornby, Hosking and the NRM themselves.

Im sure many will not take this idea seriously and laugh it off as 'Armchair garbage' but lets remember we have seen much stranger things in the preservation movement happen and the risks made the locos more infamous. I'm pretty sure that there would be less documentaries on Scotsman if it weren't for the risks that Pegler and Mcalpine took for Scotsman's publicity. We went from the only new builds being just narrow gauge locos in the 70s to many seeing what Tornado might do next and the anticipation for the new P2 is huge because they showed it was possible.

At the end of the day would you rather see an Icon like Mallard steam for 3 years, fail on a mainline railtour and the NRM calling it quits with millions of pounds down the drain and back to square one? Or see a Loco come back from a long retirement and be a jumping on point to the hobby for new enthusiasts, make revenue for Heritage railways and tourism, and to be in a much better state for running in as the risk are much less due to its not as historically significant as Mallard?

TLDR: The Mallard argument seems like it will never end and its not impossible to steam again when new generations come across her and go against current tradition and do so, Dominion might be an interesting short term fix that might satisfy both sides of the debate for the meantime.

I would like to see non running locos like Mallard, Dominion Of Canada, Dwight D Eisenhower etc run again, bring revenue to heritage railways and tourism, go on the mainline and attract many people.

 

[zwk500]

If you take Mallard off display at the NRM, you will badly hurt visitor numbers. The queue of small children who want to have a look at the footplate is always busy, even if the queue for the footplate of the Duchess next door is empty.

Union of South Africa, Bittern or Sir Nigel Gresley could be certified for the mainline for much less money, and would do the job of keeping an A4 alive very well (and I do think an A4 should be kept on the mainline if possible). Mallard could well end up with a similar trespass problem to Flying Scotsman, which is something the other A4s don't generally seem to have.

 

[Class08Shunter]

If you take Mallard off display at the NRM, you will badly hurt visitor numbers. The queue of small children who want to have a look at the footplate is always busy, even if the queue for the footplate of the Duchess next door is empty.

Union of South Africa, Bittern or Sir Nigel Gresley could be certified for the mainline for much less money, and would do the job of keeping an A4 alive very well (and I do think an A4 should be kept on the mainline if possible). Mallard could well end up with a similar trespass problem to Flying Scotsman, which is something the other A4s don't generally seem to have.

Well after it would be taken off display for a certain time period to get overhauled, maybe the NRM could hire another A4 to be on display or take Flying Scotsman back to York until Mallard would be finished or Tornado could be hired as well.

 

[zwk500]

Well after it would be taken off display for a certain time period to get overhauled, maybe the NRM could hire another A4 to be on display or take Flying Scotsman back to York until Mallard would be finished or Tornado could be hired as well.

Mallard is not equal to any other A4, and the A1 SLT would not want to just rent out a static exhibit (although it isn't impossible). Swapping it for Flying Scotsman might be a reasonable substitute, although given how much money was spent getting 60103 running I'd say it's better to keep the A3 going than to bring an A4 back from the dead.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Mallard is not equal to any other A4, and the A1 SLT would not want to just rent out a static exhibit (although it isn't impossible). Swapping it for Flying Scotsman might be a reasonable substitute, although given how much money was spent getting 60103 running I'd say it's better to keep the A3 going than to bring an A4 back from the dead.

But if Mallard was overhauled and it ran on heritage railways or on the mainline plenty of people would see it or board a train it was hauling. But also Flying Scotsman could be put on display for a few months and then a few months later it would do another railtour or go to another railway and then repeat the process until Mallard is finished.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I‘m not certain but I don’t believe the work done to steam ‘Mallard’ in the 80s was particularly substantial. A restoration in 2022, especially to main line standards, would presumably require much more alteration and loss of original material, and the result would be the NRM losing it’s star attraction from display for months or years at a time. In a world where we have ‘Flying Scotsman’ and ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ on the main line, ‘Bittern’ waiting in the wings, York indicating fairly recently that they’d be amenable to ‘Green Arrow’ returning to steam, plus new builds like ‘Tornado’ and (in the future) the two P2s, do we really need ‘Mallard’ to steam as well?

 

[randyrippley]

How much work does Mallard need before being used again? What needs replacing and would the resulting loco still be Mallard?
For instance if the boiler is changed, is it really still the same engine?

But if Mallard was overhauled and it ran on heritage railways or on the mainline plenty of people would see it ..................

.....without paying.
Have you calculated the revenue loss to the NRM?

 

[Spamcan81]

If you take Mallard off display at the NRM, you will badly hurt visitor numbers. The queue of small children who want to have a look at the footplate is always busy, even if the queue for the footplate of the Duchess next door is empty.

Union of South Africa, Bittern or Sir Nigel Gresley could be certified for the mainline for much less money, and would do the job of keeping an A4 alive very well (and I do think an A4 should be kept on the mainline if possible). Mallard could well end up with a similar trespass problem to Flying Scotsman, which is something the other A4s don't generally seem to have.

As far as UoSA is concerned, you will have to persuade its owner to reverse his decision to retire it.

I‘m not certain but I don’t believe the work done to steam ‘Mallard’ in the 80s was particularly substantial. A restoration in 2022, especially to main line standards, would presumably require much more alteration and loss of original material, and the result would be the NRM losing it’s star attraction from display for months or years at a time. In a world where we have ‘Flying Scotsman’ and ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ on the main line, ‘Bittern’ waiting in the wings, York indicating fairly recently that they’d be amenable to ‘Green Arrow’ returning to steam, plus new builds like ‘Tornado’ and (in the future) the two P2s, do we really need ‘Mallard’ to steam as well?

Regarding “original material,” the 4468 in the NRM isn’t quite the same loco as broke the record in 1938. The tender’s not the same for a start and many components large and small will have been swapped or renewed at overhauls. It does however carry the famous name and number and as such the general public will be happy to believe it’s Mallard.

 

[Class08Shunter]

How much work does Mallard need before being used again? What needs replacing and would the resulting loco still be Mallard?
For instance if the boiler is changed, is it really still the same engine?


.....without paying.
Have you calculated the revenue loss to the NRM?

But wouldn't the money people pay to go on Mallard's railtour go to the NRM? But also some parts of the loco isn't original as @Spamcan81 said. The tender isn't original and other components are different.

I‘m not certain but I don’t believe the work done to steam ‘Mallard’ in the 80s was particularly substantial. A restoration in 2022, especially to main line standards, would presumably require much more alteration and loss of original material, and the result would be the NRM losing it’s star attraction from display for months or years at a time. In a world where we have ‘Flying Scotsman’ and ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ on the main line, ‘Bittern’ waiting in the wings, York indicating fairly recently that they’d be amenable to ‘Green Arrow’ returning to steam, plus new builds like ‘Tornado’ and (in the future) the two P2s, do we really need ‘Mallard’ to steam as well?

Well it would be good for it to run again as it would haul a few railtours, go on heritage railways and maybe (probably not or even definitely not) do the same speeds as it did in 1938 when it broke the speed record.

 

[StephenHunter]

As far as UoSA is concerned, you will have to persuade its owner to reverse his decision to retire it.


Regarding “original material,” the 4468 in the NRM isn’t quite the same loco as broke the record in 1938. The tender’s not the same for a start and many components large and small will have been swapped or renewed at overhauls. It does however carry the famous name and number and as such the general public will be happy to believe it’s Mallard.

It's Trigger's Broom in locomotive form.

 

[43096]

How much work does Mallard need before being used again? What needs replacing and would the resulting loco still be Mallard?
For instance if the boiler is changed, is it really still the same engine?

That's no different to many other exhibits. For example, 43102 is there as the Mallard equivalent for diesel traction, but doesn't have the same engine type as it did in 1987 - I'd say a diesel's engine is equivalent in significance to the boiler on a kettle.

 

[Townsend Hook]

But wouldn't the money people pay to go on Mallard's railtour go to the NRM? But also some parts of the loco isn't original as @Spamcan81 said. The tender isn't original and other components are different.


Well it would be good for it to run again as it would haul a few railtours, go on heritage railways and maybe (probably not or even definitely not) do the same speeds as it did in 1938 when it broke the speed record.

The NRM is first and foremost a museum, not an operator of heritage locomotives. They need to bring people through the doors at York and Shildon, and well known exhibits such as Mallard are a huge part of that. They already have one big name roving ambassador for heritage railways and railtours, in Flying Scotsman, they don’t need a second.

We all have favourite locomotives we’d love to see running but realistically never will, for me it’s the prototype Deltic and the class 71. But I understand and accept the reasoning and real world constraints which prevent these machines from ever running again.

 

[zwk500]

How much work does Mallard need before being used again? What needs replacing and would the resulting loco still be Mallard?
For instance if the boiler is changed, is it really still the same engine?

Locos had nearly everything, including boilers, changed at various points during overhauls and the like. I think the bit that actually constituted a loco was taken as the main frames and Nameplates, nearly everything else was considered replaceable without killing the loco.

I've heard it said that to restore Stepney, the Bluebell would take the whistle off, build a new loco and put the old whistle on.

As far as UoSA is concerned, you will have to persuade its owner to reverse his decision to retire it.

Indeed, but that would probably take less money than restoring Mallard

 

[Class08Shunter]

The NRM is first and foremost a museum, not an operator of heritage locomotives. They need to bring people through the doors at York and Shildon, and well known exhibits such as Mallard are a huge part of that. They already have one big name roving ambassador for heritage railways and railtours, in Flying Scotsman, they don’t need a second.

We all have favourite locomotives we’d love to see running but realistically never will, for me it’s the prototype Deltic and the class 71. But I understand and accept the reasoning and real world constraints which prevent these machines from ever running again.

Mallard running again would attract as much people as Flying Scotsman attracts, maybe more. After all it would be good for the loco that broke the speed record to be running again.

 

[Darandio]

Mallard running again would attract as much people as Flying Scotsman attracts, maybe more. After all it would be good for the loco that broke the speed record to be running again.

But how is it going to make more money than it does when people come to see it as a static exhibit and donate? It can't run on the mainline every week, it can only haul so many passengers at a time.

Bear in mind it will cost several million to get it near any basic condition to run again.

 

[43066]

You're right about it being daft. Mallard should be overhauled. If it ran again plenty of people would turn up to see it. It would be like Flying Scotsman, Tornado and the other A4s. Plenty of people come to see them wherever they are.

That isn’t necessarily a good argument for having high profile locos on steam specials. Quite the opposite, in fact, given the behaviour it leads to.

 

[zwk500]

Mallard running again would attract as much people as Flying Scotsman attracts, maybe more.

Probably, but that's to the active detriment of anybody trying to use the railway to travel.

After all it would be good for the loco that broke the speed record to be running again.

But it'll only be running at 75mph. There's never a chance in heaven it'll run anywhere near 126mph again.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Probably, but that's to the active detriment of anybody trying to use the railway to travel.

But it'll only be running at 75mph. There's never a chance in heaven it'll run anywhere near 126mph again.

I should have thought about the speed limit in more detail.

But how is it going to make more money than it does when people come to see it as a static exhibit and donate? It can't run on the mainline every week, it can only haul so many passengers at a time.

Bear in mind it will cost several million to get it near any basic condition to run again.

Have it on display for a certain time period, do a railtour or go on another heritage railway then return to the NRM then repeat the process.

 

[Cowley]

Probably, but that's to the active detriment of anybody trying to use the railway to travel.

But it'll only be running at 75mph. There's never a chance in heaven it'll run anywhere near 126mph again.

I have a feeling that the last time it was allowed on the main line it would have only been allowed to run up to 60mph in the 1980s anyway in that era wouldn’t it?

 

[Class08Shunter]

I have a feeling that the last time it was allowed on the main line it would have only been allowed to run up to 60mph in the 1980s anyway in that era wouldn’t it?

Yes I agree with you. Locos will have been limited to 60mph like you said.

 

[Spamcan81]

But wouldn't the money people pay to go on Mallard's railtour go to the NRM? But also some parts of the loco isn't original as @Spamcan81 said. The tender isn't original and other components are different.


Well it would be good for it to run again as it would haul a few railtours, go on heritage railways and maybe (probably not or even definitely not) do the same speeds as it did in 1938 when it broke the speed record.

There is next to zero chance of Mallard or any other steam loco being allowed to do 120+

I have a feeling that the last time it was allowed on the main line it would have only been allowed to run up to 60mph in the 1980s anyway in that era wouldn’t it?

Whatever the limit when she ran in preservation, she comfortably exceeded 60 mph. When did the 75 limit come in for locos with 6’ 2” drivers and larger?

 

[Cowley]

Whatever the limit when she ran in preservation, she comfortably exceeded 60 mph. When did the 75 limit come in for locos with 6’ 2” drivers and larger?

I’m not sure. I want to say mid 1990s possibly?

 

[43066]

I have a feeling that the last time it was allowed on the main line it would have only been allowed to run up to 60mph in the 1980s anyway in that era wouldn’t it?

Whatever the limit when she ran in preservation, she comfortably exceeded 60 mph. When did the 75 limit come in for locos with 6’ 2” drivers and larger?

On a tangentially related note, has a steam loco run at 90mph anywhere on the network, other than Tornado’s 100mph specially authorised run?