Will Mallard Ever Run Again?

[Cowley]

On a tangentially related note, has a steam loco run at 90mph anywhere on the network, other than Tornado’s 100mph specially authorised run?

Yes Bittern did during the Mallard 75th anniversaries. What a wonderful sight it made too:

 

[Harvester]

Locos had nearly everything, including boilers, changed at various points during overhauls and the like. I think the bit that actually constituted a loco was taken as the main frames and Nameplates, nearly everything else was considered replaceable without killing the loco.

Yes that was true. Mallard had seven different tenders and twelve different boilers between entering service and withdrawal. It’s current tender comes from A4 60003, and a reconditioned boiler (ex60009) was fitted at its last General Repair in 1961.

 

[43066]

Yes Bittern did during the Mallard 75th anniversaries. What a wonderful sight it made too:

Thanks - hadn’t realised that. Indeed, quite something to behold.

I doubt even the A4s reached 90mph much/at all when they were in service?

 

[Townsend Hook]

Have it on display for a certain time period, do a railtour or go on another heritage railway then return to the NRM then repeat the process.

There’s a reason Flying Scotsman doesn’t spend much time at all on display at the NRM sites. If you’ve paid millions of pounds to restore an engine, you only have so many years to run it before it’s boiler ticket runs out and it needs more money spending. If it was to spend extended periods of time sat around the turntable at York it’s losing time it can be earning money back on the investment made to make it operational in the first place. It would be the same with Mallard, it would only be paying off the cost of it’s restoration if it were running and not at York, so having it return for extended periods of display is not feasible.

 

[Spamcan81]

On a tangentially related note, has a steam loco run at 90mph anywhere on the network, other than Tornado’s 100mph specially authorised run?

Yes. Several unofficial maxima in the 80s and 90s were achieved. I was on some and my personal best was 98.

 

[Trackman]

I wonder what state it is in.
They do reports as someone did a FOIA (freedom of information) on the diesels, which was very glum. Oddly they mentioned the EM1 class 76, which just needed the air tanks clearing out, built like tanks those things.

 

[xotGD]

Just rename/renumber one of the other A4s. Nobody will notice.

Heck, only last week I discovered that 'Western Queen' had escaped the cutter's torch after all!

 

[D6968]

Since the fact that the running status of the A4s has changed since the Great Gathering nearly 10 years ago where we only have one A4 running now in the form of Sir Nigel Gresley number 60007. I reckon its not a bad time to revisit this question.

A good way of looking at the argument is the fact that if current enthusiasts of a middle aged to younger demographic are keen to see Green arrow steam again but some of the older enthusiasts are still saying no due to the monoblock cylinder problem, then who is to say that Mallard wont return to the overhaul workshops at some point this century as no one would have seen Mallard steam and as it of a good build quality loco the arguments against it doing so might not stand up as well as they once did.

I think a more interesting compromise is probably one that many would shrug off easily, However hear me out! I reckon the NRM should do a collaborative project with the Canadian museum and steam Dominion of Canada, even if its for just one boiler ticket on UK rails.

If they where able to bring Dominion over here to be restored at a workshop at either Bury or York they can fix the damage that she has had since returning to Canada and then start undergoing the overhaul. The overhaul would be an opportunity to make sure that new pieces can be machined for other A4s that need new parts whether it be the Sir Nigel Gresley group or Hosking wishing to give Bittern one more go, and to fit her for mainline certification for UK rails.

My justification for doing so is that Dominion didn't really have a hugely interesting story prior to it being sent to the Canadian museum. She had to be restored at York because of her deterioration was rather bad and so that doesn't justify any complaints of having an overhaul, she will bring interest to the UK mainline scene in hopefully the same way Scotsman has done and give heritage railways revenue by hosting the engine for galas.

Having a member that hasn't steamed since the 60s verses a very significant member that only steamed for 2 in the late 80s and that many are still divided on doing so, i think Canada would be the best middle ground that could happen. Even ideas on its funding doesn't sound as bad as many might think of as enthusiasts on both sides of the Atlantic would support it. The Canadians will appreciate that she is running on home metals and that the Canadian museum will take better care of the engine when it returns as it will be more valuable than ever due to its story of running in the UK one last time, as for the UK i'm sure many will put some donations behind the project and i'm sure there will be some large donations from Hornby, Hosking and the NRM themselves.

Im sure many will not take this idea seriously and laugh it off as 'Armchair garbage' but lets remember we have seen much stranger things in the preservation movement happen and the risks made the locos more infamous. I'm pretty sure that there would be less documentaries on Scotsman if it weren't for the risks that Pegler and Mcalpine took for Scotsman's publicity. We went from the only new builds being just narrow gauge locos in the 70s to many seeing what Tornado might do next and the anticipation for the new P2 is huge because they showed it was possible.

At the end of the day would you rather see an Icon like Mallard steam for 3 years, fail on a mainline railtour and the NRM calling it quits with millions of pounds down the drain and back to square one? Or see a Loco come back from a long retirement and be a jumping on point to the hobby for new enthusiasts, make revenue for Heritage railways and tourism, and to be in a much better state for running in as the risk are much less due to its not as historically significant as Mallard?

TLDR: The Mallard argument seems like it will never end and its not impossible to steam again when new generations come across her and go against current tradition and do so, Dominion might be an interesting short term fix that might satisfy both sides of the debate for the meantime.

Again I much doubt we’ll see DoC back in action, it was buggered when it was withdrawn, it then had 2 years out of use at Darlington before it’s cosmetic restoration. From what I’m told it’s not in the best condition.

Mallard running again would attract as much people as Flying Scotsman attracts, maybe more. After all it would be good for the loco that broke the speed record to be running again.

If you can come up with a sensible fund raising plan, someone to overhaul and then manage the loco for its ticket then I’m sure those at the science museum could indulge you.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Just rename/renumber one of the other A4s. Nobody will notice.

Heck, only last week I discovered that 'Western Queen' had escaped the cutter's torch after all!

I looked on Wikipedia and it says that Western Queen is scrapped. I'm sure plenty of people would notice that an A4 would be renamed and renumbered. Somebody would probably leak news about that.

 

[Harvester]

Again I much doubt we’ll see DoC back in action, it was buggered when it was withdrawn, it then had 2 years out of use at Darlington before it’s cosmetic restoration. From what I’m told it’s not in the best condition.

Of the North American based pair, Dwight D Eisenhower is in by far the best condition. It was in working order when withdraw in July 1963, and Doncaster works did some work on the loco before it was shipped to the USA.

When here for the “Great Gathering“ there were offers to buy 60008, or failing that to have it stay on loan with the aim of restoring the engine to full working order. The offers were not excepted.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Since the fact that the running status of the A4s has changed since the Great Gathering nearly 10 years ago where we only have one A4 running now in the form of Sir Nigel Gresley number 60007. I reckon its not a bad time to revisit this question.

A good way of looking at the argument is the fact that if current enthusiasts of a middle aged to younger demographic are keen to see Green arrow steam again but some of the older enthusiasts are still saying no due to the monoblock cylinder problem, then who is to say that Mallard wont return to the overhaul workshops at some point this century as no one would have seen Mallard steam and as it of a good build quality loco the arguments against it doing so might not stand up as well as they once did.

I think a more interesting compromise is probably one that many would shrug off easily, However hear me out! I reckon the NRM should do a collaborative project with the Canadian museum and steam Dominion of Canada, even if its for just one boiler ticket on UK rails.

If they where able to bring Dominion over here to be restored at a workshop at either Bury or York they can fix the damage that she has had since returning to Canada and then start undergoing the overhaul. The overhaul would be an opportunity to make sure that new pieces can be machined for other A4s that need new parts whether it be the Sir Nigel Gresley group or Hosking wishing to give Bittern one more go, and to fit her for mainline certification for UK rails.

My justification for doing so is that Dominion didn't really have a hugely interesting story prior to it being sent to the Canadian museum. She had to be restored at York because of her deterioration was rather bad and so that doesn't justify any complaints of having an overhaul, she will bring interest to the UK mainline scene in hopefully the same way Scotsman has done and give heritage railways revenue by hosting the engine for galas.

Having a member that hasn't steamed since the 60s verses a very significant member that only steamed for 2 in the late 80s and that many are still divided on doing so, i think Canada would be the best middle ground that could happen. Even ideas on its funding doesn't sound as bad as many might think of as enthusiasts on both sides of the Atlantic would support it. The Canadians will appreciate that she is running on home metals and that the Canadian museum will take better care of the engine when it returns as it will be more valuable than ever due to its story of running in the UK one last time, as for the UK i'm sure many will put some donations behind the project and i'm sure there will be some large donations from Hornby, Hosking and the NRM themselves.

Im sure many will not take this idea seriously and laugh it off as 'Armchair garbage' but lets remember we have seen much stranger things in the preservation movement happen and the risks made the locos more infamous. I'm pretty sure that there would be less documentaries on Scotsman if it weren't for the risks that Pegler and Mcalpine took for Scotsman's publicity. We went from the only new builds being just narrow gauge locos in the 70s to many seeing what Tornado might do next and the anticipation for the new P2 is huge because they showed it was possible.

At the end of the day would you rather see an Icon like Mallard steam for 3 years, fail on a mainline railtour and the NRM calling it quits with millions of pounds down the drain and back to square one? Or see a Loco come back from a long retirement and be a jumping on point to the hobby for new enthusiasts, make revenue for Heritage railways and tourism, and to be in a much better state for running in as the risk are much less due to its not as historically significant as Mallard?

TLDR: The Mallard argument seems like it will never end and its not impossible to steam again when new generations come across her and go against current tradition and do so, Dominion might be an interesting short term fix that might satisfy both sides of the debate for the meantime.

Does Bittern and Union of South Africa no longer run on the main lines anymore? Are they operating on any heritage lines?

 

[sprinterguy]

I looked on Wikipedia and it says that Western Queen is scrapped. I'm sure plenty of people would notice that an A4 would be renamed and renumbered. Somebody would probably leak news about that.

I rather think that xotGD is quite aware that the original 'Western Queen' was scrapped, the point he was making was that it's not unusual for preserved locomotives to temporarily assume the identities of defunct classmates.

The chameleonic life of 'Bittern' is a good case in point here, the loco having also appeared as 2509 'Silver Link' and 4492 'Dominion of New Zealand' at different times over the past thirty years or so.

There's no suggestion that there'd be anything clandestine to another such change of identity, certainly it'd be readily apparent to enthusiasts through the railway and social media, but would the majority of the general public be aware? Certainly as an impressionable young boy taken to see 'Silver Link' on display at the Stephenson Railway Museum in the early nineties, it caused me some consternation to go home and open my Yeadon's Register to find that loco was reported scrapped in 1963.

Does Bittern and Union of South Africa no longer run on the main lines anymore? Are they operating on any heritage lines?

'Union of South Africa' is on static display in the Bury Transport Museum following the end of its current boiler ticket and a decision by its owner not to return it to operational use, while 'Bittern' is stored at the One to One exhibit in Margate: I'm unsure whether a decision on its future has yet been made, but certainly for the foreseeable future 'Sir Nigel Gresley' will be flying the flag as the sole operational A4.

 

[D365]

To restore Mallard now would require TPWS Mk4, ETCS, an all-new JRU (Judicial Recordering Unit data recorder)... Tornado's being fitted, but I doubt that there will be much appetite to fit all six A4s with the above.

 

[DarloRich]

Never say never but it is not going happen unless something cosmic occurs!

PS i have had Mallard for haulage anyway

 

[blackfive460]

On a tangentially related note, has a steam loco run at 90mph anywhere on the network, other than Tornado’s 100mph specially authorised run?

Getting off topic somewhat but, post 1971, aside from the high speed run with Bittern already mentioned, the answer to your question is 'yes' but a public forum isn't the right place for chapter and verse!

 

[D6130]

Getting off topic somewhat but, post 1971, aside from the high speed run with Bittern already mentioned, the answer to your question is 'yes' but a public forum isn't the right place for chapter and verse!

Getting off-topic even further (sorry mods), I was on a steam-hauled special nearly forty years ago which - according to several stopwatch/milepost timers on board - reached 96 mph....and on jointed track at that! However, as @blackfive460 rightly says, this forum is not the right place for chapter and verse.

 

[Townsend Hook]

'Union of South Africa' is on static display in the Bury Transport Museum following the end of its current boiler ticket and a decision by its owner not to return it to operational use, while 'Bittern' is stored at the One to One exhibit in Margate: I'm unsure whether a decision on its future has yet been made, but certainly for the foreseeable future 'Sir Nigel Gresley' will be flying the flag as the sole operational A4.

I would hazard a guess that with ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ now operating on the main line under the Locomotive Services Group/Saphos Trains banner, ‘Bittern’ may subsequently have dropped a couple of places down their overhaul queue.

 

[315801]

I believe 60019 Bittern was clocked doing 90+ on the east coast mainline a few times during her recent boiler ticket including I think 92 mph through Grantham

Also I think but please don't quote me or ask me to prove it that Tornado has also been clocked at around 90 or above thundering through Grantham aswell.

In respect of the debate regarding 4468 Mallard, I think that during 1 overhaul of 4472/60103 Flying Scotsman that the front frames over the leading bogie had to be replaced as they were so badly worn that had the job not been done at the time, the overhaul cost for the loco would have been significant more than it was. It was discovered during the removal of the front extension frames that they borevthe number 60040 or 60041 which were probably fitted after either of those 2 locos was either rebuilt or scrapped, so in that respect, if Mallard's tender wasn't the original that it was paired with when built, not to add fuel to the fire here or to be shouted at here but what is to say that with ANY preserved steam loco that it is fully 100 % all original parts for that 1 loco as it would have been when built

The other point I need to add in here is that yes it would be great to see 60008 and/or 60010 run over here but at the time when they were brought over from the USA for the Mallard 75 event back in 2013 but the owners of the locos stated to the NRM that they could do cosmetic work on them but under no circumstances were they to even attempt to do any work to get them running as this would have resulted in the owners recalling the locos to be sent back to the USA.

The only possibility would be for a society to be formed with the intent of recreating 1 of the scrapped A4s or building a brand new locomotive.

Originally there were 35 locomotives ( 60001 - 60034 ) but what is to say a 36th loco could be built although its number would be out of sequence as the next number in the sequence ( 60035 ) was allocated to an A3 ( Windsor Lad I believe ).

 

[jumble]

I doubt that Mallard will ever run
I recall seeing Mallard Sir Nigel Gresley and and Flying Scotsman all together at Marylebone in October 1986 which I think is unlikely to ever happen again
( I also saw Mallard without its covers on the first? steam test in 1985 at NRM (same weekend as Blackpool Tram 100 years)

 

[sprinterguy]

I would hazard a guess that with ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ now operating on the main line under the Locomotive Services Group/Saphos Trains banner, ‘Bittern’ may subsequently have dropped a couple of places down their overhaul queue.

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me.

 

[D6968]

Getting off-topic even further (sorry mods), I was on a steam-hauled special nearly forty years ago which - according to several stopwatch/milepost timers on board - reached 96 mph....and on jointed track at that! However, as @blackfive460 rightly says, this forum is not the right place for chapter and verse.

I’ve had several LMS Pacific’s that had Speedo problems, as well as being lucky enough to sample several EE type 4’s and 5’s that seem to have suffered from the same fault.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I rather think that xotGD is quite aware that the original 'Western Queen' was scrapped, the point he was making was that it's not unusual for preserved locomotives to temporarily assume the identities of defunct classmates.

The chameleonic life of 'Bittern' is a good case in point here, the loco having also appeared as 2509 'Silver Link' and 4492 'Dominion of New Zealand' at different times over the past thirty years or so.

There's no suggestion that there'd be anything clandestine to another such change of identity, certainly it'd be readily apparent to enthusiasts through the railway and social media, but would the majority of the general public be aware? Certainly as an impressionable young boy taken to see 'Silver Link' on display at the Stephenson Railway Museum in the early nineties, it caused me some consternation to go home and open my Yeadon's Register to find that loco was reported scrapped in 1963.

'Union of South Africa' is on static display in the Bury Transport Museum following the end of its current boiler ticket and a decision by its owner not to return it to operational use, while 'Bittern' is stored at the One to One exhibit in Margate: I'm unsure whether a decision on its future has yet been made, but certainly for the foreseeable future 'Sir Nigel Gresley' will be flying the flag as the sole operational A4.

Ok, thank you for that. As well as Union of South Africa, Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley, was there a fourth A4 also operating in recent years on the main too?

 

[matt]

Ok, thank you for that. As well as Union of South Africa, Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley, was there a fourth A4 also operating in recent years on the main too?

You might be thinking of Bittern which ran as Dominion of New Zealand for a while.

 

[mike57]

An interesting thread, which raises a question in my mind, bearing in mind the 'Triggers Broom' reference earlier, is: How much of the locomotive Mallard on display in the NRM actually travelled down Stoke Bank at 126mph in 1938.

From my own limited knowledge frames and cladding? What about wheels, connecting rods and cylinders? Other stuff?

 

[DarloRich]

An interesting thread, which raises a question in my mind, bearing in mind the 'Triggers Broom' reference earlier, is: How much of the locomotive Mallard on display in the NRM actually travelled down Stoke Bank at 126mph in 1938.

From my own limited knowledge frames and cladding? What about wheels, connecting rods and cylinders? Other stuff?

Unless it was withdrawn immediately after the record run I suspect the answer is not much. However, that is life. My house has had internal fires removed and chimneys blocked up and the kitchen knocked through into the coal and out house and an inside bathroom added at some point. It has had a new roof and new windows and new electrics and new plumbing and new floors and more insulation and etc etc.

I cant even say the original structure is the same as it isn't due to the extension for bathroom and kitchen! Does that mean my house wasn't built in 1825?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An interesting thread, which raises a question in my mind, bearing in mind the 'Triggers Broom' reference earlier, is: How much of the locomotive Mallard on display in the NRM actually travelled down Stoke Bank at 126mph in 1938.

From my own limited knowledge frames and cladding? What about wheels, connecting rods and cylinders? Other stuff?

All machines eventually wear out and need bits replacing. Flying Scotsman (a loco that's arguably even more of a celebrity) isn't really the same loco that ran the eponymous named service between the world wars or broke the 100mph barrier.

We give these machines numbers and names, but bits get swapped out or taken off for refurbishment all the time. However the railway community at large agrees to agree that this set of mostly interchangeable parts is loco X, and that set of parts is loco Y. Occasionally we decide to 'disguise' a loco as a lost classmate, but these examples tend not to stay that way for long.

 

[mike57]

Unless it was withdrawn immediately after the record run I suspect the answer is not much. However, that is life. My house has had internal fires removed and chimneys blocked up and the kitchen knocked through into the coal and out house and an inside bathroom added at some point. It has had a new roof and new windows and new electrics and new plumbing and new floors and more insulation and etc etc.

I cant even say the original structure is the same as it isn't due to the extension for bathroom and kitchen! Does that mean my house wasn't built in 1825?

That was the answer I expected, it doesn't worry me, I would rather things be living museum pieces and used. It was more to add weight to the 'restore it and use it' arguement as I suspected not a lot of the 1938 version survives, although the costs and other barriers will probably preclude that from happening.

An interesting sub question, did the people involved in the 1938 record expect it to stand for over 80 years. I suspect not, but WW2 put paid to that, and then once steam was seen to be running down there was no further development of steam technology

 

[Anonymous10]

There was talk a few years ago, but NRM put forward that it would never run again as it was to be conserved because of its historical importance, which seems a bit daft as it was restored to running order jn the 1980's. I travelled behind it on a Scarborough Spa Express, in the days when you just paid an additional price on top of a regular ticket to Scarborough. I think Scarborough council paid a substantial sum towards its restoration which I think also included the turntable installation at Scarborough.

as someone employed within the museum sector ill give some context for you and others as to why this decision was likely taken by the museum in question. Possible reasons are as follows

possible damage to an object in their eyes ( the loco) by anything on the line by spectators or any other metric.

what runs will eventually break and will be damaged to some degree and with others of the same class running why risk such an important loco.

the paperwork required for anything to leave a museum is immense when visiting another museum so i would dread to think of paperwork in running it. it may have been deemed unviable

 

[DarloRich]

That was the answer I expected, it doesn't worry me,

Agreed - I think we have to accept that a piece of equipment has a lifetime and will be overhauled and changed during that lifetime. I think the best you can do is preserve something as it was withdrawn OR restore it to a certain period of time during it's life.

An interesting sub question, did the people involved in the 1938 record expect it to stand for over 80 years. I suspect not, but WW2 put paid to that, and then once steam was seen to be running down there was no further development of steam technology

I am surprised the Deutsche Reichsbahn didn't try to pinch the record. Exactly the sort of thing the Nazi would like a PR coup!

 

[mike57]

I am surprised the Deutsche Reichsbahn didn't try to pinch the record. Exactly the sort of thing the Nazi would like a PR coup!

Yes it always crossed my mind, at what point did DR go onto a 'war footing'. Seeing as they had already acheived almost the same speed two years previously I suspect that they could have beaten it