Will Mallard Ever Run Again?

[MarkyT]

Eek! Elon Musk would want to strip down Mallard and stuff it into one of his ridiculous Hyperloop tubes !

It wouldn't need an air-smoothed casing in an (utterly absurd) vacuum tube!

 

[zwk500]

It wouldn't need an air-smoothed casing in an (utterly absurd) vacuum tube!

Hasn't he abandoned the hypertube (at least for now?). Mind you, given what's happened maybe funding Mallard will be more profitable than his dabble at Twitter!

 

[MarkyT]

Hasn't he abandoned the hypertube (at least for now?). Mind you, given what's happened maybe funding Mallard will be more profitable than his dabble at Twitter!

I believe you're correct about the abandoned pooperloop thing or whatever it was called, not long after he admitted he only published the white paper years ago to try and defeat Caifornia High Speed Rail. Apparently, Twitter is now burning around $4m a day with its current financial burden. That would pay for a brand new replica pacific (or complete rebuild) every couple of days I'd have thought.

 

[Trainlog]

I believe you're correct about the abandoned pooperloop thing or whatever it was called, not long after he admitted he only published the white paper years ago to try and defeat Caifornia High Speed Rail. Apparently, Twitter is now burning around $4m a day with its current financial burden. That would pay for a brand new replica pacific (or complete rebuild) every couple of days I'd have thought.

I mean when it comes to an idea of a new replica pacific, i'm honestly surprised that one of the loco owning millionaires like Jeremy Hosking hasn't tried to do this already and buy out a failing newbuild project, for example a loco with complete frames but no further progress on anywhere else on the loco, and finish it off themselves.

 

[zwk500]

I mean when it comes to an idea of a new replica pacific, i'm honestly surprised that one of the loco owning millionaires like Jeremy Hosking hasn't tried to do this already and buy out a failing newbuild project, for example a loco with complete frames but no further progress on anywhere else on the loco, and finish it off themselves.

Because Hosking, for all the money he's sunk into his enterprise, is looking for a profit at the end of it all. The investment needed to finish off a loco from scratch rather than just overhaul an existing one would be substantial and he would need many years running to make it back.
I'm not sure there are many other owners out there with a spare £5m to chuck at another loco.

 

[D365]

Because Hosking, for all the money he's sunk into his enterprise, is looking for a profit at the end of it all.

Even if he wasn't - he has staff to pay.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Doubt it - a bit like Evening Star there are other members of its class as runners and Mallard's historical significance like Evening Star means it's unlikely to be risked.

I wonder why Flying Scotsman being kept in working order, as I can't imagine its because there aren't other members of its class!

There was talk a few years ago, but NRM put forward that it would never run again as it was to be conserved because of its historical importance, which seems a bit daft as it was restored to running order jn the 1980's. I travelled behind it on a Scarborough Spa Express, in the days when you just paid an additional price on top of a regular ticket to Scarborough. I think Scarborough council paid a substantial sum towards its restoration which I think also included the turntable installation at Scarborough.

On that basis then surely Flying Scotsman shouldn't run and be conserved because of its historical importance.

Now Im thinking is FS historically important ?



I do think Mallard along with Evening star should run again, not at the same time but rotate them with Flying Scotsman.

I also think Flying Scotsman really should take the place of Mallard in the NRM for a while.

 

[A0wen]

I wonder why Flying Scotsman being kept in working order, as I can't imagine its because there aren't other members of its class!


On that basis then surely Flying Scotsman shouldn't run and be conserved because of its historical importance.

Now Im thinking is FS historically important ?



I do think Mallard along with Evening star should run again, not at the same time but rotate them with Flying Scotsman.

I also think Flying Scotsman really should take the place of Mallard in the NRM for a while.

Flying Scotsman isn't original - it was rebuilt from a A1.

Mallard is largely original (in common with other class members its boiler and tenders were changed).

Evening Star AIUI is original having never even been repainted in its life.

 

[trebor79]

9Fs are banned from the mainline though aren't they? So not a lot of point NRM restoring Evening Star to running.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder why Flying Scotsman being kept in working order, as I can't imagine its because there aren't other members of its class!


On that basis then surely Flying Scotsman shouldn't run and be conserved because of its historical importance.

Now Im thinking is FS historically important ?



I do think Mallard along with Evening star should run again, not at the same time but rotate them with Flying Scotsman.

I also think Flying Scotsman really should take the place of Mallard in the NRM for a while.

There's a very good argument to retire 60103 completely and mount it when the ticket comes up. Even if you get around the flangeless centre wheels on 92220, to restore Evening Star to running order feels like it's being done just as an ironic/historic 'stuff you' to 1968, given the 9F was a heavy freight loco, not an express passenger loco.
I get the calls for Mallard to be restored, but it's just not financially sensible within the overall context of preserved railway economics.

 

[MarkyT]

I wonder why Flying Scotsman being kept in working order, as I can't imagine its because there aren't other members of its class!


On that basis then surely Flying Scotsman shouldn't run and be conserved because of its historical importance.

Now Im thinking is FS historically important ?



I do think Mallard along with Evening star should run again, not at the same time but rotate them with Flying Scotsman.

I also think Flying Scotsman really should take the place of Mallard in the NRM for a while.

Don't forget that under the air-smoothed casing Mallard is really just a souped-up Flying Scotsman with almost identical leading dimensions throughout, a tweak to boiler pressure and cylinder size to suit and a special racing exhaust system added, which the A3s also received in the 1950s. I'd argue that FS is the real groundbreaking start of the LNER Gresley pacific family, although clearly Mallard with its striking appearance and speed record is very iconic.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

The problem with briquettes is that while they generate lots of heat, they tend to disintigrate quickly and turn the fire into a glowing mass without structure. Although coal is unloved, it will burn steadily on its own given a free supply of air from below, and tends to stay in lumps for much longer, thus supporting any unburned fuel subsequently added on top. I can't see how the briquettes will work in a locomotive which is bumping along the track, as most of the fire would vanish on to the ballast every few hundred metres or so.

 

[MarkyT]

Even if you get around the flangeless centre wheels on 92220, to restore Evening Star to running order feels like it's being done just as an ironic/historic 'stuff you' to 1968, given the 9F was a heavy freight loco, not an express passenger loco.

Although a 9F famously found itself in charge of a mainline passenger service from Grantham to Kings Cross one day, probably because it was the only functional loco of the required power output available on shed at the time. It was clocked by an enthusiast on board going over 90mph! That and other similar occurrences led to an eventual BRB instruction banning their use on such trains through fear of excessive wear at the high rotational speeds involved, although the 9Fs continued some passenger use at more moderate speeds on secondary lines like the S&D.

 

[zwk500]

Although a 9F famously found itself in charge of a mainline passenger service from Grantham to Kings Cross one day, probably because it was the only functional loco of the required power output available on shed at the time. It was clocked by an enthusiast on board going over 90mph! That and other similar occurrences led to an eventual BRB instruction banning their use on such trains through fear of excessive wear at the high rotational speeds involved, although the 9Fs continued some passenger use at more moderate speeds on secondary lines like the S&D.

Isn't there a famous quote about the driver being told that he was 'only meant to keep time, not break the bl**y sound barrier'? Yes, a 9F did appear on things like The Pines Express but very much in the spirit of Northern's Random Unit generator. It was, first and foremost, for hauling long trains of heavy coal and steel.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Isn't there a famous quote about the driver being told that he was 'only meant to keep time, not break the bl**y sound barrier'? Yes, a 9F did appear on things like The Pines Express but very much in the spirit of Northern's Random Unit generator. It was, first and foremost, for hauling long trains of heavy coal and steel.

I don't think it was 'random' at all. The WR realised that by using 9Fs (which they had spare from dieselisation) they could cut the need for a pilot loco over the very difficult grades on the S&D during the summer peak. It was a very definite, sensible operational decision to make savings in the last year or so of the Pines operating over the S&D. The trains never got about about 55 mph in practice, so there was no threat to the integrity of the 9F motion.

9Fs, or at least Evening Star, were used on the Red Dragon from Cardiff to London - I'm not sure how often they appeared on the train, though I have seen photos.

 

[DerekC]

Mallard won't steam again unless and until some billionaire and/or large commercial sponsor (might be the same thing) offers the NRM a super deal to make it happen. For instance paying for the restoration plus funding some other major project that NRM wants to do but can't afford. It seems unlikely, but never is a very long time!

Those who say that Mallard is up there with Flying Scotsman are absolutely right judging by my seven-year-old grandson, who we took to the NRM about three weeks ago. Mallard was what he went there for! The other locos were somewhat interesting but not in the same class. Maybe as part of the deal Bittern should be painted silver and renamed "Spencer" for when Mallard is out mainline! [ducks for brickbats]

 

[Halifaxlad]

Maybe as part of the deal Bittern should be painted silver and renamed "Spencer" for when Mallard is out mainline!

or why not 'Silver link' as they did back in the 90s ?

I think that livery is very similar or identical to that of Spencer.

This has got me thinking that its an absolute shame Union of South Africa is stored in a good shed on the East Lancs with a low hanging roof! I am referring to what is now the Bury Transport Museum for those who don't know, its a hell of a lot better after its refurbishment a few years ago but it is still a goodshed!

Union is certainly much more suited to the Great Hall at the NRM or RM!

 

[MarkyT]

or why not 'Silver link' as they did back in the 90s ?

I think that livery is very similar or identical to that of Spencer.

This has got me thinking that its an absolute shame Union of South Africa is stored in a good shed on the East Lancs with a low hanging roof! I am referring to what is now the Bury Transport Museum for those who don't know, its a hell of a lot better after its refurbishment a few years ago but it is still a goodshed!

Union is certainly much more suited to the Great Hall at the NRM or RM!

We're lucky there are a number of A4s preserved, mainly as a result of a selection of them having a final late swansong in Scotland after their ECML heydays were over. As long as there's one example still working with a mainline ticket I think we can say the class is adequately represented and Sir Nigel Gresley's overhaul has been finished recently so we should be good for a decade or so. Cheekily, I suggested when Flying Scotsman's last overhaul was in trouble the museum should hold onto one of the American A4 visitors for the great gathering, strip the streamlining from it and secretly dress it up as Flying Scotsman, as having not moved in 40 odd years it was probably far less worn out than the real locomotive. Who would have been any the wiser as to its real identity?

 

[Harvester]

or why not 'Silver link' as they did back in the 90s ?

Or after one of the three discarded ducks. Do the plates still exist?

 

[8A Rail]

9Fs are banned from the mainline though aren't they? So not a lot of point NRM restoring Evening Star to running.

Yes, due to their flangeless wheels leading to possible derailment.

 

[MarkyT]

Yes, due to their flangeless wheels leading to possible derailment.

Due to the post-steam era introduction of raised check rails at some switches and crossings. The check rails are raised slightly above the running rails' top surface which could interfere with the wide flangeless centre driving wheels of the 9F.

 

[contrex]

Isn't there a famous quote about the driver being told that he was 'only meant to keep time, not break the bl**y sound barrier'? Yes, a 9F did appear on things like The Pines Express but very much in the spirit of Northern's Random Unit generator. It was, first and foremost, for hauling long trains of heavy coal and steel.

Maybe I'm confusing two stories here, and possibly it's just someone's wishful thinking, but didn't I read that an extra coach full of BR senior management was added to an East Coast express with a 9F on the front, and inevitably stopwatches were deployed, 90 mph was clocked, and after arrival at King's Cross, and the smiling seniors decanted, the result was an official mild b*ll*cking and unofficial thanks for a very decent run?

 

[Trainlog]

On the topic of static A4s atm, i just read this months Steam railway and apparently John Cameron has just had his Fife museum plans approved. When it comes to making the 2 engines retired i hope he does it in the manner that we wont see another 'City of Birmingham' scenario and that there is potential that the K4 and 60009 can run again one day.

Personally, though i respect the fact that the locos are his property and they are being given shelter - i do wonder if their inclusion in the museum is still necessary especially as it will be a farming museum (but thats a story for another time) and they seem okay at the ELR anyway.

Though this is Union of South Africa and not Mallard, i wonder if this will only make the Mallard debate any larger in the enthusiasts eyes and the NRMs consciousness as it seems that apart from one (60007 Sir Nigel Gresley) the surviving A4s will pretty much be static exhibits as i am not seeing any plans for Bitterns overhaul any time soon either.

 

[Harvester]

Maybe I'm confusing two stories here, and possibly it's just someone's wishful thinking, but didn't I read that an extra coach full of BR senior management was added to an East Coast express with a 9F on the front, and inevitably stopwatches were deployed, 90 mph was clocked, and after arrival at King's Cross, and the smiling seniors decanted, the result was an official mild b*ll*cking and unofficial thanks for a very decent run?

It happened on a busy Saturday, 16th August 1958. Top Shed could only produce 9F 92184 for the 1:45pm semi-fast to Grantham which presented no problems. However the return leg was on a Edinburgh-Kings Cross working from Grantham which required faster running, and the driver duly obliged with 90mph down Stoke Bank. The General Manager was on the train as a passenger, but another passenger took some stop watch timings.

 

[MarkyT]

It happened on a busy Saturday, 16th August 1958. Top Shed could only produce 9F 92184 for the 1:45pm semi-fast to Grantham which presented no problems. However the return leg was on a Edinburgh-Kings Cross working from Grantham which required faster running, and the driver duly obliged with 90mph down Stoke Bank. The General Manager was on the train as a passenger, but another passenger took some stop watch timings.

Thank you for that detail!

 

[315801]

1 question I would like to ask please is given that network rail banned 9F locomotives from running on the main line because of the fear of derailment, during their working lives did any 9F locomotives ever end up off the rails because of the flangeless wheels ?

My thinking behind my question is that if none of the 9Fs ended up off the rails then theoretically there shouldn't be any problem running on the main line, however, if any 9Fs did end up off the rails, would it not be possible to change the tyres on the 3rd axle for flanged tyres giving all 10 driving wheels with flanges and as there are probably no sharp curves on the network now, theoretically the wheels could all be flanged and would still be able to run through turnouts / points ( whichever terminology you prefer to call them ).

If it proved to be successful then the other 9Fs which are in running order or being restored to running order could be also fitted with flanged 3rd wheels and also run on the main line.

 

[D6968]

1 question I would like to ask please is given that network rail banned 9F locomotives from running on the main line because of the fear of derailment, during their working lives did any 9F locomotives ever end up off the rails because of the flangeless wheels ?

My thinking behind my question is that if none of the 9Fs ended up off the rails then theoretically there shouldn't be any problem running on the main line, however, if any 9Fs did end up off the rails, would it not be possible to change the tyres on the 3rd axle for flanged tyres giving all 10 driving wheels with flanges and as there are probably no sharp curves on the network now, theoretically the wheels could all be flanged and would still be able to run through turnouts / points ( whichever terminology you prefer to call them ).

If it proved to be successful then the other 9Fs which are in running order or being restored to running order could be also fitted with flanged 3rd wheels and also run on the main line.

Things have changed a little on the mainline since the late 1980’s when 92220 last ran on the network though.

 

[Harvester]

1 question I would like to ask please is given that network rail banned 9F locomotives from running on the main line because of the fear of derailment, during their working lives did any 9F locomotives ever end up off the rails because of the flangeless wheels ?

I can find only two incidents regarding derailments, and neither was caused by a flangeless driving wheel. There were no issues in BR steam days with check rails, that came later (see Post #111).

IIRC a few years ago the NYMR applied for special dispensation to allow their 9F 92134 to run between Grosmont and Whitby, but this doesn’t seem to have been granted.

 

[Flying Phil]

Flying Scotsman isn't original - it was rebuilt from a A1.

Mallard is largely original (in common with other class members its boiler and tenders were changed).

Evening Star AIUI is original having never even been repainted in its life.

Evening Star was repainted at Crewe in 1967 as it was in the paintshop when I visited in April.

 

[05 003]

She should! - and make a competition run with the 05 class, refurbished from the Nürnberg railway
museum - hu-hu-hu.
Don't worry: the typical German approach to steam locos is no-ways up to it.
No, 18 201 is not fit technically for over 112 mph, they have found that out back in the 1960s.
Likely this is due to the fact it has been rebuilt from 61 002 tank engine with but 390mm cylinders /
20 bar b.p. The rebuilt engine has cylinders from 45 024 with 520mm bore at 16 bar b.p. -
seems the larger power output sent some proper frequencies into the structure that made it 'shiver'
at 183 km/h on the test track ring at Velim, CSSR. Driver R indelhardt has commented on this ..
Yet, of the steam locomotives now running she is the fastest at present.
Let's wait for the new to be built T1 #5550 Duplex - and then it's not guaranteed success.
If Mallard should stay fastest, she should be renamed Eagle or Seagull or what have you ..

Sara


05 003 in 1947 with original 20 bar b.p. and large smoke deflectors