Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[mb88]

Last night there was a number of LCB X18/27/28 routes missing, waiting times over an hour in some cases. For those of you suggesting the 43 returns to Central, remember that LB still has its shortfalls in driver numbers at each garage too. With an extra two, maybe more training buses and more and more out every day hopefully we will see the numbers begin to rise again.

Indeed, I picked up a fair few going to Bathgate at Waverley Steps last night on my X28 as the X18 hadn’t appeared. In fact I had a full standing load by the exchange. This was at half 9 ish.

The whole new Lothian Country brand at the time in 2017 was for the 43, but I agree now it has been used for the West Lothian expansions it should perhaps become a city bus again. I am not sure if Central have the drivers to drive it alongside their existing routes, though.

Totally agree the 43 should be run as a city route from Central. Can’t see it happening though when they can paint the bus green, charge an extra £1 per journey and pay the drivers £2 an hour less. On the other hand, the current set up with vans travelling between Deans and Queensferry all day long surely isn’t an efficient way of running it. There are very few duties where you do 2 full runs into Edinburgh on it so almost every single journey has a van meeting it when it gets back to Queensferry. There are a number of 3 part duties where you do 43s all day long. Half an hour each way in a van, so 3 hours of the shift you’re being paid to drive a van.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Would need shuttle vans to somewhere daft so can't see that happening myself.

Changeovers at Drumsheugh Place with Central drivers more likely if it was ever to go back go city. Could certainly use XLBs on some journeys, shame city can't operate a few rush journeys to boost capacity.

Ah blast, I totally forgot about the changeovers. You could still change at Scotstoun but I don’t think that would provide any worthwhile benefits compared to now. I wouldn’t think it’s workable for an en route changeover outside of town as the 43 hasn’t got anywhere that’s practical due to the fact it’s on a main road most of the way. Imagine doing changeovers at somewhere like the westbound lay-by stop at Clermiston Drive, it would be a disaster, or even worse - next to the Cramond Brig.

Unfortunately I think the 43 is just one of these logistically difficult routes to run. It’s run just like an out of Edinburgh bus but it officially does not leave the city. Unless you actually had a depot that was close to Queensferry you’re always going to have high dead mileage expenses on it, whether that’s drivers and/or buses. Newbridge therefore would obviously be best geographically speaking, but that’s the Coach Depot.

It must be annoying though if you live on the CityWEST part of the 43, as you’ll pay £2.80 for a single. Compare that to a similar journey of length and time, such the X6 from Tranent to Edinburgh, where you will only pay £1.80 for a single. It doesn’t seem very fair.

 

[stevenedin]

Ah blast, I totally forgot about the changeovers. You could still change at Scotstoun but I don’t think that would provide any worthwhile benefits compared to now. I wouldn’t think it’s workable for an en route changeover outside of town as the 43 hasn’t got anywhere that’s practical due to the fact it’s on a main road most of the way. Imagine doing changeovers at somewhere like the westbound lay-by stop at Clermiston Drive, it would be a disaster, or even worse - next to the Cramond Brig.

Unfortunately I think the 43 is just one of these logistically difficult routes to run. It’s run just like an out of Edinburgh bus but it officially does not leave the city. Unless you actually had a depot that was close to Queensferry you’re always going to have high dead mileage expenses on it, whether that’s drivers and/or buses. Newbridge therefore would obviously be best geographically speaking, but that’s the Coach Depot.

It must be annoying though if you live on the CityWEST part of the 43, as you’ll pay £2.80 for a single. Compare that to a similar journey of length and time, such the X6 from Tranent to Edinburgh, where you will only pay £1.80 for a single. It doesn’t seem very fair.

I’ve never understood why they change drivers during the route instead of at the terminus. What would be wrong with running from Central and changing at Waterloo Place? It would make sense. They could time the shifts say to Queensferry and back then change.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I’ve never understood why they change drivers during the route instead of at the terminus. What would be wrong with running from Central and changing at Waterloo Place? It would make sense. They could time the shifts say to Queensferry and back then change.

Would this not require some sort of timetable change? All vehicles on the 43 commence service from Queensferry (and also conclude services there) so would buses simply deadrun to/from Central in the Mornings and evenings and then in someway then be scheduled to allow change at Waterloo Place with reasonable shift lengths, or would they launch earlier & later services to/from Waterloo Place to ensure all existing services are covered whilst also allowing changes at Waterloo Place? I'm not perfect with this stuff myself but surely there would have to be a change to make this work?

A quick query. How long did the X43 take along it's full route compared to the 43?

 

[stevenedin]

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Here is a before and after of the network. It isn’t great as I just roughly edited a picture but you can see the scale of the cut back like for like. Also the blue indicates X27 and X28 on the new one.

I apologise for the messy bits. It’s not easy on a mobile to do it lol.

 

[Bus9120UK]

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Here is a before and after of the network. It isn’t great as I just roughly edited a picture but you can see the scale of the cut back like for like. Also the blue indicates X27 and X28 on the new one.

I apologise for the messy bits. It’s not easy on a mobile to do it lol.

A quick google search also finds the Network that was due to operate in March 2020, albeit this didn't happen to the pandemic, I believe this was confirmed a week before Richard Hall confirmed his resignation.


(Image displays March 2020 pre-covid network map, main difference being the withdrawal of the EX1 back then. Completely different compared to the current networks as posted above by @stevenedin )

The network as of September 2020, consisted of:

• 43 Queensferry to Edinburgh (St. Andrew Square - I believe. Correct me if wrong)
• N43 Edinburgh to Queensferry
• X18 Edinburgh to Whitburn
• X27 Edinburgh to Whitburn
• X28 Edinburgh to Bathgate
• N28 Edinburgh to Bathgate
• 275 Broxburn to Bathgate
• 276 Broxburn to Loganlea
• 280 Livingston to Blackridge
• 281 Livingston to Fauldhouse

Main differences here being the withdrawal of the X38, EX2 & 287. N28 was also longer at that point compared to what it is now.

 

[stevenedin]

A quick google search also finds the Network that was due to operate in March 2020, albeit this didn't happen to the pandemic, I believe this was confirmed a week before Richard Hall confirmed his resignation.

View attachment 121861
(Image displays March 2020 pre-covid network map, main difference being the withdrawal of the EX1)

When you see that you can see a massive difference. It actually looks like a really good network. It’s a shame that they never made it work.

I wasn’t sure about the route number EX1 and EX2. I always thought that they should’ve numbered them something to fit in with the rest of the network.

EX1 could’ve been X19

EX2 could’ve been X39

 

[Jordan Adam]

A quick google search also finds the Network that was due to operate in March 2020, albeit this didn't happen to the pandemic, I believe this was confirmed a week before Richard Hall confirmed his resignation.

View attachment 121861
(Image displays March 2020 pre-covid network map, main difference being the withdrawal of the EX1 back then. Completely different compared to the current networks as posted above by @stevenedin )

That map is from the February 2020 changes so that network did run briefly. The original proposed March 2020 changes saw the 275/287 merged and the X17 cut back from Fauldhouse to Loganlea.

The EX1 was withdrawn in the November 2019 changes along with the first variant of a 281 (Loganlea - Deans North) which was essentially a shortened version of the First 26 but on half the frequency and slower since it went round Craigshill, this was around the time LC seemed obsessed with flooding Craigshill with empty buses with it having the X17, X27, X28 & 281!

 

[Bus9120UK]

That map is from the February 2020 changes so that network did run briefly. The original proposed March 2020 changes saw the 275/287 merged and the X17 cut back from Fauldhouse to Loganlea.

The EX1 was withdrawn in the November 2019 changes along with the first variant of a 281 (Loganlea - Deans North) which was essentially a shortened version of the First 26 but on half the frequency and slower since it went round Craigshill, this was around the time LC seemed obsessed with flooding Craigshill with empty buses with it having the X17, X27, X28 & 281!

I appreciate the corrections.

 

[scosutsut]

It must be annoying though if you live on the CityWEST part of the 43, as you’ll pay £2.80 for a single. Compare that to a similar journey of length and time, such the X6 from Tranent to Edinburgh, where you will only pay £1.80 for a single. It doesn’t seem very fair.

I'd be pretty certain Tranent wouldn't be in the beneficial situation it's in if it wasn't for the 26, but Lothian would be crucified if they pulled it and then tried to change the East Coast fare zones now!

 

[stevenedin]

I'd be pretty certain Tranent wouldn't be in the beneficial situation it's in if it wasn't for the 26, but Lothian would be crucified if they pulled it and then tried to change the East Coast fare zones now!

They don’t even need to charge more they could change the route to say a 116 or something and run it under EastCoastbuses under the same route but terminate it at Haymarket. The current 26 could run Clerwood - Eastfield. There could then be a new 129 launched from Seton Sands to Edinburgh city centre and then if they decided to they could extend it further to Western General or Silverknowes, if not they could terminate it at Haymarket.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

They don’t even need to charge more they could change the route to say a 116 or something and run it under EastCoastbuses under the same route but terminate it at Haymarket. The current 26 could run Clerwood - Eastfield. There could then be a new 129 launched from Seton Sands to Edinburgh city centre and then if they decided to they could extend it further to Western General or Silverknowes, if not they could terminate it at Haymarket.

That would work in theory, the only one I see working is the 129 since it's a historic route number and people (especially in Musselburgh,) haven't realised it has been withdrawn! 116 is a trickier one but I think if you numbered it 85 it would work. You have to remember, lots of people in East Lothian use it as transportation to the Zoo too though, although they can just buy a DayTicket.

 

[stevenedin]

That would work in theory, the only one I see working is the 129 since it's a historic route number and people (especially in Musselburgh,) haven't realised it has been withdrawn! 116 is a trickier one but I think if you numbered it 86 it would work. You have to remember, lots of people in East Lothian use it as transportation to the Zoo too though, although they can just buy a DayTicket.

Unless the route stayed the same and it was changed to EastCoastbuses routes. I’m unsure what the numbering would be though but it would be good if both the routes to Seton Sands and Tranent had different route numbers even if it ended up being 129 Seton Sands and 130 Tranent. I think that the 86 would only be recognised at the Clerwood and west Edinburgh end.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Unless the route stayed the same and it was changed to EastCoastbuses routes. I’m unsure what the numbering would be though but it would be good if both the routes to Seton Sands and Tranent had different route numbers even if it ended up being 129 Seton Sands and 130 Tranent. I think that the 86 would only be recognised at the Clerwood and west Edinburgh end.

I meant 85 sorry!

 

[Lothian Buses]

NO! JUST NO! The 26 is an iconic bus route!!!!!¬

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

NO! JUST NO! The 26 is an iconic bus route!!!!!¬

Nothing lasts forever. Look at the 22.

 

[Lothian Buses]

Nothing lasts forever. Look at the 22.

The 22 was an iconic route until Lothian ruined it.
And the 42!

 

[gavin1985]

Nothing lasts forever. Look at the 22.

Surely that's down to the tram extension as it will take almost the exact same route?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Surely that's down to the tram extension as it will take almost the exact same route?

Yes, that was the main reason. The 22 has effectively been on borrowed time for years. It’s only because the tram lines have taken so long to be built that it survived in its original state for so long.

As more tram lines are built, a few bus routes will have to change if they duplicate the trams too much. However, I wouldn’t expect full withdrawals to be common. This should allow higher frequencies on other routes that need it but where no resources currently allow it. I’m not mega keen and I’m equally also not dead against of the idea of all of this but it’s what we’re likely to see going forward.

In the years to come routes such as the 49 will be adjusted, as there’s a likelihood of a tram service directly from Leith to the Royal Infirmary.

 

[Lothian Buses]

My friend passed a depiot near marine and apparently there was gold writing on the side of a Gemini 3 saying "Buses," It is either "Lothian Country Buses" or "East Coast Buses."

 

[Bus9120UK]

My friend passed a depiot near marine and apparently there was gold writing on the side of a Gemini 3 saying "Buses," It is either "Lothian Country Buses" or "East Coast Buses."

There is no "buses" in the Lothian Country brand name, so it'd have to have been East Coast buses.

 

[JurassicMan]

from what i have heard Livington depot is 29 drivers short, and some are in the process of leaving which could the reason.

you guys may disagree with this but would the passing of the 43 route to Lothian bet the best thing for it.

I'm not sure where your information is coming from but it's wrong. There are a number of agency drivers still at Livingston, and there are always people leaving and always people starting. There are currently 20+ in training although not all for Livingston and I guess the old adage of keeping them comes into play.

We're currently losing fewer miles than at any time in the previous 6 months and there are even days where none of the loss is due to driver numbers.

 

[exeter 50044]

Hey, @JurassicMan man, this information comes from a few drivers I know that work there.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

589 is now away for repaint. Therefore there’s a pretty good chance another repainted B5LH will return.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Having seen 585 a few minutes ago, I can confirm it's green and white.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Having seen 585 a few minutes ago, I can confirm it's green and white.

And I can confirm with my picture.

The picture shows the rear of repainted 585 just about to turn into Seafield in the green and white livery.

 

[computerSaysNo]

And I can confirm with my picture.

The picture shows the rear of repainted 585 just about to turn into Seafield in the green and white livery.

Nice picture.
So Longstone ("LS") are losing at least some of the B5LHs, these have been replaced at LS by... some short double-door B9s and some short single-door B9s so far? Is that correct?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Nice picture.
So Longstone ("LS") are losing at least some of the B5LHs, these have been replaced at LS by... some short double-door B9s and some short single-door B9s so far? Is that correct?

Correct, 1000/2/5 1146-1153 have moved to Longstone in replacement.

 

[eh1]

Correct, 1000/2/5 1146-1153 have moved to Longstone in replacement.

Nice to see an investment into LCB/ECB fleets (depending on where these go!). Not sure if I think the ex Londons are suited to Longstone work - I had one a few weeks back on a 33 and struggled for space, on a weekend too mind. A shame these weren't used to replace 1 to 10 at Central as they'd be just right for the 1s and 12s capacity wise.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Correct, 1000/2/5 1146-1153 have moved to Longstone in replacement.

Which if my maths is correct is only 11 buses. Of course with the repainting of the 15 plate B5LH’s slowing down that probably allows them to lose a bus.