A steep curve d link used to exist between the two lines and the one can still be followed on foot.
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Would Closed Rail Links In England Reopen?
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it did, but it faced the wrong way.
YorksLad12
Established Member
That's the one from Whitby West Cliff. Heading north takes you towards Redcar and Middlesbrough (but, annoyingly, not via Saltburn). Part of that line is still open, but not very much of it (Marske - Skinningrove).
Scarborough got about a million annual users before covid. However whitby is a smaller town, but that also means more of an incentive not to travel by car as things can be more easily reached by foot. A million annual users of the line would definetly justify reopening.
NYMR will run their trains at what is most likely not the maximum speed and their trains, don't have modern levels of acceleration. A 185 could probably do Pickering to Grosmont in half an hour at an average speed of 36 mph, which seems reasonable given the nature of the route. 1h20 saved is significant, especially with a direct service to York, which means far more journeys are possible with only one connection. However the price of new railways in this country is out of control making this whole plan financially unjustifiable. If construction costs for railways in this country were actually reasonable, it would definetly make sense.
Trainfan344
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A lot of people seem to be forgetting a problem that should be solved before anything else.
Malton station only has a single platform, it would definitely benefit from a second platform to allow trains to pass.
Malton station only has a single platform, it would definitely benefit from a second platform to allow trains to pass.
NYMR aren't allowed to run trains higher than 25mph because of their signalling and maintenance requirements. They aren't going to be going higher than that any time soon. Acceleration is where the savings would be, but given the nature of the route even 10 minutes looks optimistic.
Where'd you get 1h20 savings from? The saving of the Pickering route using current timetables is 35 minutes, you aren't saving 45 minutes in acceleration north of Pickering.
How much should a railway cost per mile? From establishing a business case through to handover to NR, quote a 'reasonable' number.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Me for one!
Some of us haven't forgotten I nearly posted something not so long back about this and the level crossing to the East of the station.
I do wonder if Malton to Pickering South would be ideal for this Very light rail concept ?
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That was from reducing 1hr 15, to 30. The 25 mph limit is primarily due to the rolling stock and staffing., the only thing that would need to be changed regarding the track is the installation of TPWS as far as I beleive. £3-5 million per mile is a reasonable cost for building a new single track route to 75mph standard. The main thing holding this back is botched cost saving ideas(very light rail) and the decade or so of false starts and endless public enquires with the whole thing ending up costing triple what it was meant to. If we just set aside amount we spent on the GWML upgrade simply to reopening regional routes, economies of scale would kick in and massively decrease the per project cost. When viewed individually, it just makes everything too expensive, so we could end up saving money by going big now instead of doing it one by one.
Class08Shunter
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If Malton-Pickering belonged to NR, would NR pay the NYMR if NR ran test trains on the Malton-Pickering line as part of sharing the cost?
Why would NR be paying a different railway because it was running trains on it's own track? Test trains between Malton and Pickering would be factored into the existing Yorkshire Coast circuits and run by NR's Contractors, such as Colas Rail or GBRF. The NR boundary would be just north of the new station, and the line through Pickering itself would be NYMR owned.
Class08Shunter
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I meant to say that Network Rail would pay the NYMR if Network Rail ran a test train on NYMR metals.
But NR wouldn't run a test train over the NYMR, unless the NYMR paid it to do so.
Class08Shunter
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Companies could pay the NYMR so those companies could do crew training from Pickering to Grosmont. Many years ago Arriva Trains Northern paid the NYMR so Arriva could do crew training from Grosmont to Pickering.
Indeed they do - this is a regular thing for the heritage sector, and a win-win situation: the company gets to train on a live railway, so more scenarios can be covered without shutting a public line, and the heritage railway gets a funding boost, often with work thrown in to boot. Tamping training is the classic one. I know the Bluebell host training from their press reports, and when I worked for NR my manager had supervised some GWR training on the West Somerset Railway (where he volunteers) and I attended some training at the Chinnor Railway.
However, this can be done today with rail access via Grosmont, and it would be very rare for NR to send anything from Derby to the NYMR for training, so it certainly wouldn't justify the costs of a tramway through the town. The test train fleet isn't very big and their roster is usually pretty full so finding a day or two to spend in the North York Moors wouldn't be easy. NR have access to their own test tracks, or closer heritage lines to Derby, if they can't do training or calibration runs on the mainline.
Don't get me wrong - NR works very closely with the heritage sector, and there are a number of people (including Peter Hendy, Chairperson of NR) who like to do favours for the heritage sector whenever possible. But NR can't throw public money after pet projects, and it's test train fleet is already pressed quite hard. It already covers a hell of a lot of costs of mainline heritage operation, and gives special exemptions for Steam/Diesel operation on a regular basis, but it couldn't share the maintenance costs of a different railway's track.
Class08Shunter
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I wonder how much would the NYMR pay to run on the Pickering to Malton Line?
Bit in bold - your "reasonable" is utterly unrealistic.
It's worth remembering that the cost of building the Great Central Railway in the late 1800s / early 1900s cost £ 11,500,000 for 92 miles - which worked out at £ 125,000 / mile in 1900 and in today's prices that's over £ 18m / mile.
That was with far more rudimentary track work and signalling systems than you have today and much lower overall standards of construction and safety.
To put it in context, the Bala Lake Railway's proposed extension of about 3/4 mile to Bala Town is estimated to cost £ 4m, source: https://nation.cymru/news/4m-plan-to-extend-heritage-railway-submitted-to-national-park-planners/ and that's for a relatively "simple" narrow gauge railway, with much lower linespeeds, much lighter trains than anything standard gauge.
bramling
Veteran Member
Is Whitby *that* popular a destination? It’s a nice town for sure, but there isn’t actually a massive amount there, especially for those not coming by car and thus relying on public transport to access the wider area.
In a perfect world Whitby would have a rail link from the south, but we don’t live in a perfect world. Anyone coming from the York direction who wants a seaside town has Scarborough, and realistically that barely seems to fill one DMU per hour much of the time. If one really wants to reach Whitby there is a bus service between the two, or if really desperate it’s a day’s walk (and yes I’ve done it!).
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
Plenty of passengers on the NYMR go to whitby so I suppose there is a lot of tourists coming to whitby.
Surely a more logical solution for improve services to Whitby would be to restore the link from Battersby Junction to where it joins the Northallerton-Middlesbrough line at Picton, south of Yarm, I think?
As far as I can see the track bed is still there in the main.
This would make running direct services from York to Whitby much more realistic. It would of course by-pass Middlesbrough and cut out 8 stations en route to Battersby I think.
As far as I can see the track bed is still there in the main.
This would make running direct services from York to Whitby much more realistic. It would of course by-pass Middlesbrough and cut out 8 stations en route to Battersby I think.
Longer though - the gap from Battersby - Picton is about 12 miles compared to 8 for Malton - Pickering.
In reality, neither are even close to being viable. When the Eastern section of EWR doesn't have a great benefits case, rural lines through North Yorkshire really don't stand a chance.
Class08Shunter
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I'm sure those lines would never reopen. But having a look at an article about an attempt to reopen the pickering to malton line. It said that Pickering Council might think about reopening it in the next 40-50 years.
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mike57
Established Member
Or a reasonable 21 mile ride on a push bike, on a segregated (for most of the way) route using the old railway track, locally known as 'the cinder track' but I dont know what its official name is, and of course if the Scarborough - Whitby railway were to reopen this cycle route would be lost.
My own opinion: Leave the NYMR to Pickering - Whitby, its a big tourist draw in its own right. In a perfect world, if the track bed south of the station was intact I could see some benefit in the NYMR runnng south out of Pickering to a station on the A169 which would be less than a mile and use the Pickering - Seamer track bed, which would give more space for parking, and cause less congestion in the town centre. However a lot of town centre traders might not be too happy as there will be less footfall in the town centre.
The problem with any improvements to Whitby rail access is that its usage is going to be very seasonal, with probably 12 weeks of the year when trains would be full, maybe another 18 weeks or so where weekends would be busy and weekdays would have some use and probably 20 weeks of the year when it will be dead, and that isnt going to be the basis for any reopenings.
The Coastliner bus runs Malton - Pickering - Whitby, journey times are not too bad from Malton, Pickering is less than 30 mins, Whitby is about 85 mins.
So I just dont see it ever getting to even a serious proposal stage, let alone to spades in the ground.
Mcr Warrior
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Think the "Cinder Track" (between Scarborough and Whitby) is its actual name. Possibly also known as / referred to as, the "Scarborough to Whitby Rail Trail".
Class08Shunter
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I wonder when it was named the Cinder Track because it didn't have that name before closure in 1965.
Mcr Warrior
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With respect, it was hardly ever going to be called the "Cinder Track" whilst it was still an operational railway line in the 1960's. Reckon that the revised name may only be a decade or so old, unless anyone knows for definite otherwise.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
I'm sure that the Pickering to Malton line would have a better chance of reopening than the Picton to Battersby line.
I note Brubulus's location is shown as Cambridge, so hopefully the comparison with EWR will be seen as a good comparison.
Maybe NYR will attract academics and biomedic types from Pickering to Whitby? Dracula blood- testing labs?
Regarding heritage lines generally, I would imagine there is an optimum journey length/ time beyond which costs increase faster than additional custom/ income, so it's hard to see extending services as a way to increasing income substantially or profit hardly if at all- let alone finding and funding the capital expenditure.
It's god to dream.
I think that the most significant move towards Malton - Pickering reinstatement came from the Whitby Local Authority. Noting that Scarborough station has a pre-Covid footfall of just under 1M compared to Whitby's 130k suggests strongly that West Yorks to Whitby needs a direct service.
For NYMR, it is already 18 miles long, and responsible minds there would question whether the extra 7 miles could ever earn enough to cover its heritage operating, let alone its capital cost.
For the planners, an open country route would be easy to find but the effect on Pickering town centre might be horrific, with much of the right of way lost. There would be quite a lot of new work at Malton, also. This would need serious government money and local will.
For operating, a TOC would want modern stock for a Leeds - York - Whitby service, with a reasonable speed over NYMR metals. This would require full NR safety standards etc. The heritage railway might not appreciate the sort of disabled access lifts and bridges that we now expect. The effect of the proposed Uckfield extension on the Lavender Line should be noted (everything would have been bulldozed flat together with neighbouring properties). A similar quandary could exist on the East Lancs Rly if proposals progress there.
I am not convinced that the best heritage lines are unsuitable for faster passenger service. Some frankly have better track than NR branch lines and are passed for 60mph for non passenger traffic. There should really be a graded Light Railway Order to allow higher speeds than 25mph where the track, signalling, rolling stock and operating competence merit it. This might then open the way for some interworking.
WAO
For NYMR, it is already 18 miles long, and responsible minds there would question whether the extra 7 miles could ever earn enough to cover its heritage operating, let alone its capital cost.
For the planners, an open country route would be easy to find but the effect on Pickering town centre might be horrific, with much of the right of way lost. There would be quite a lot of new work at Malton, also. This would need serious government money and local will.
For operating, a TOC would want modern stock for a Leeds - York - Whitby service, with a reasonable speed over NYMR metals. This would require full NR safety standards etc. The heritage railway might not appreciate the sort of disabled access lifts and bridges that we now expect. The effect of the proposed Uckfield extension on the Lavender Line should be noted (everything would have been bulldozed flat together with neighbouring properties). A similar quandary could exist on the East Lancs Rly if proposals progress there.
I am not convinced that the best heritage lines are unsuitable for faster passenger service. Some frankly have better track than NR branch lines and are passed for 60mph for non passenger traffic. There should really be a graded Light Railway Order to allow higher speeds than 25mph where the track, signalling, rolling stock and operating competence merit it. This might then open the way for some interworking.
WAO
Outside London, there are very, very few tourist destinations that see more than 10% of visitors arrive by train. Whitby won’t be one of them.
How do you reach that conclusion? Some basic figures will help your case.
You’re quite right - a brand new single track to 75mph standard does cost about £3m a mile to buy.
That’s just the track components though (Rail, sleepers, ballast, fixings).
You’ll need someone to transport the materials to site, unless you’ll be doing it yourself (they weigh about 6,000 tonnes per mile). And someone else to put them in of course.
You might also want some bridges, earthworks, drainage, fencing, signalling, telecoms, power and stations. But before that you might also want planning consent (with at least three rounds of public consultation), property costs, environmental mitigation, land clearance and devegetation.
Then you will want some people to design it, and some others to manage the whole thing - preferably with some experience in construction, engineering, planning, contract management, risk management, communications, project accounting, and by no means least leading people. And you might want somewhere to feed and water these people.
Add a zero to your estimate.
It's not just the % but also the volume and its lesser impact (on traffic, parking etc).
You are right in that road access is mostly better than rail from the provincial connurbations.
WAO
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