NPR will it ever happen?

[frodshamfella]

Reports in todays " i " dont give much confidence with this project . Rishi has already stated investment should be moved from deprived areas to areas like Tunbridge Wells .

Rishi Sunak shelves Liz Truss's pledge to beef up Northern Powerhouse Rail to 'full' version

Ex-PM’s pledge to reverse Government cuts and build a £43bn new high speed Leeds-Liverpool line via Bradford is put on ice amid economic pressure

inews.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I would shelve it, and instead for the moment do some platform extensions to allow TPE to run 4tph of reliable service across the Pennines at 10 cars on all services (portion working could allow frequencies at the east end to be enhanced), with a rolling electrification programme as and when. That's enough capacity for years, it's not the south WCML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NPR is too far into the future to have any bearing on the current financial crisis.
It's meat and drink to excitable northern politicians who want commitment to fantastical sums of money before any design work has been done.
The position is that Rishi signed off a £96 billion IRP last year (which includes getting HS2 to Manchester, as well as finishing TRU and designing a Liverpool-Marsden new line).
I doubt he is going to revisit that anytime soon.
Labour wouldn't do any better, given the straightjacket on funds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 2B is essential for NPR - it might not contribute practically, but I would be unsurprised to see it canned to make a point (but 1 and 2A remain).

 

[ComUtoR]

(portion working could allow frequencies at the east end to be enhanced)

New one on me. Portion working ?

 

[A0]

Reports in todays " i " dont give much confidence with this project . Rishi has already stated investment should be moved from deprived areas to areas like Tunbridge Wells .

Rishi Sunak shelves Liz Truss's pledge to beef up Northern Powerhouse Rail to 'full' version

Ex-PM’s pledge to reverse Government cuts and build a £43bn new high speed Leeds-Liverpool line via Bradford is put on ice amid economic pressure

inews.co.uk

Bit in bold - that's a distortion of what was being said - for the record whilst the event was at Tunbridge Wells, the person asking the question was from Thanet which is every bit as deprived as many of the Labour heartlands.

Slightly OT - but during 97-10 the Labour government shamelessly redirected money towards its "deprived heartlands" ignoring the fact that places like Kent, Surrey and even Bucks and Northants have areas of deprivation, have elderly populations requiring social care etc etc - but those areas lost out whilst Labour channelled money to its own areas. So a rebalancing is over due along with an acceptance that supposedly prosperous areas also have deprived areas.

Turning to NPR - some of it will happen, there's no doubt a need for better Trans Pennine links between Manchester and West Yorks, but extending to Liverpool ? That bit could go as the links between Manchester and Liverpool are pretty good even now - Liverpool's about 35 miles and there are trains doing that journey in about 40 mins, Leeds is 40 miles and most trains take over an hour.

Bradford's a distraction - and won't be dealt with. The way the railway lines were built into Bradford has seen to that and NPR isn't going to dig up half of Bradford just to put it on the route.

 

[A0]

New one on me. Portion working ?

Splitting trains so one bit goes to 'a' another to 'b' - largely discontinued because it's an operational nightmare and isn't a good use of human resource either. But some posters have a bit of a fixation on it.

 

[matacaster]

No.

 

[swt_passenger]

NPR - will we never have enough threads about it?

 

[frodshamfella]

Personally I would shelve it, and instead for the moment do some platform extensions to allow TPE to run 4tph of reliable service across the Pennines at 10 cars on all services (portion working could allow frequencies at the east end to be enhanced), with a rolling electrification programme as and when. That's enough capacity for years, it's not the south WCML.

That would be something , but their service along with Northern would need to improve massively .

 

[Bletchleyite]

New one on me. Portion working ?

Twice an hour, run a ten car train from Liverpool to York. Split it there for Newcastle and Redcar.

Possibly do the same for Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and Scarborough at Leeds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

That would be something , but their service along with Northern would need to improve massively .

Building NPR won't fix staffing issues...

 

[Neptune]

Twice an hour, run a ten car train from Liverpool to York. Split it there for Newcastle and Redcar.

Not a good use of paths. Why would you have 2 trains from York - Thirsk - Northallerton within minutes of each other? Don’t even think of suggesting that Thirsk and Northallerton can do without their direct links to Darlington, Durham and Newcastle or Yarm, Thornaby and Middlesbrough.

Doing this twice a hour would also be very heavy on sparse paths on the ECML.

Possibly do the same for Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and Scarborough at Leeds.

Suggesting splitting and joining in Leeds shows a lack of understanding of the constraints at Leeds. On paper maybe but it would be an absolute logistical nightmare in the real world.

I’d personally rather see 4tph clockface across the core utilising 7 car 802’s.

 

[edwin_m]

Not a good use of paths. Why would you have 2 trains from York - Thirsk - Northallerton within minutes of each other? Don’t even think of suggesting that Thirsk and Northallerton can do without their direct links to Darlington, Durham and Newcastle or Yarm, Thornaby and Middlesbrough.

Doing this twice a hour would also be very heavy on sparse paths on the ECML.

Suggesting splitting and joining in Leeds shows a lack of understanding of the constraints at Leeds. On paper maybe but it would be an absolute logistical nightmare in the real world.

I’d personally rather see 4tph clockface across the core utilising 7 car 802’s.

A re-modelling of Northallerton has been suggested to put the platforms on loops. If that happened, splitting and joining could take place there instead. Obviously quite a bit project but it has other benefits, and might be a way of avoiding something bigger somewhere else.

 

[Neptune]

A re-modelling of Northallerton has been suggested to put the platforms on loops. If that happened, splitting and joining could take place there instead. Obviously quite a bit project but it has other benefits, and might be a way of avoiding something bigger somewhere else.

I would suggest that the chances of something as major as this happening where the main benefit is to let TPE trains split/join won’t happen for a very long time.

Splitting trains so one bit goes to 'a' another to 'b' - largely discontinued because it's an operational nightmare and isn't a good use of human resource either. But some posters have a bit of a fixation on it.

Quite. The same posters would probably complain when the inevitable performance risk this would cause happens for real.

 

[MattRat]

They'll call whatever they do NPR, but it'll be in name only.

Personally, a "cheaper" solution would be 'CrossNorth', taking Manchester commuter trains off the main network, and putting them underground (this includes ones to the likes of Liverpool by the way). That would remove the main bottleneck for intercity and regional trains in Manchester/the north.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Splitting trains so one bit goes to 'a' another to 'b' - largely discontinued because it's an operational nightmare and isn't a good use of human resource either. But some posters have a bit of a fixation on it.

And HS2.

 

[frodshamfella]

Twice an hour, run a ten car train from Liverpool to York. Split it there for Newcastle and Redcar.

Possibly do the same for Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and Scarborough at Leeds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==



Building NPR won't fix staffing issues...

Well the sooner the better...

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I would shelve it, and instead for the moment do some platform extensions to allow TPE to run 4tph of reliable service across the Pennines at 10 cars on all services (portion working could allow frequencies at the east end to be enhanced), with a rolling electrification programme as and when. That's enough capacity for years, it's not the south WCML.

This is pretty much my view as it happens.

Realistically NPR wouldn't have been dreamt about if the administrations of the day had made the necessary capacity and electrification enhancements in the North 20-30 years ago.

If I were them, I'd be prioritising the nuclear power stations, given the state of the world.

 

[urbophile]

the links between Manchester and Liverpool are pretty good even now - Liverpool's about 35 miles and there are trains doing that journey in about 40 mins, Leeds is 40 miles and most trains take over an hour.

Not at present! Cancellations are rife. More of a long-term problem is the CLC line which is still unnelectrified, and the restriction of the single through island platform at Piccadilly would not be tolerated in the south east. We are not talking about small impoverished towns but links between several of the largest and most important cities in the country. Anyway, express services between two places only 35 miles apart should take much less than 40 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is pretty much my view as it happens.

Realistically NPR wouldn't have been dreamt about if the administrations of the day had made the necessary capacity and electrification enhancements in the North 20-30 years ago.

If I were them, I'd be prioritising the nuclear power stations, given the state of the world.

Yep. HS2 is about capacity on a line into London that has no scope for longer trains and no scope for adding more trains. The whole game is different in the North - we are still running silly short trains around the place, which if run at proper lengths (240m, say) would more than double current capacity, which may well be as much as is needed *ever*. Thus NPR is not as important as HS2*, though some "point" interventions (e.g. Manc Picc 15/16) may be worth doing alone. But extending platforms and buying rolling stock is cheap compared to the whole NPR thing.

* Though reduced commuting makes HS2 a *bit* less important, construction has started so might as well finish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==

Not at present! Cancellations are rife.

That's mostly a staffing issue which NPR won't fix.

More of a long-term problem is the CLC line which is still unnelectrified and the restriction of the single through island platform at Piccadilly would not e tolerated in the south east. We are not talking about small impoverished towns but links between several of the largest and most important cities win the country. Anyway, express services between two places only 35 miles apart should take much less than 40 minutes.

There are several other options for the CLC than as it is. But even if you do leave it as is, how about if those two fast trains were 240m long and the Northern stoppers 160m? More capacity than will be needed in years.

 

[frodshamfella]

Bit in bold - that's a distortion of what was being said - for the record whilst the event was at Tunbridge Wells, the person asking the question was from Thanet which is every bit as deprived as many of the Labour heartlands.

Slightly OT - but during 97-10 the Labour government shamelessly redirected money towards its "deprived heartlands" ignoring the fact that places like Kent, Surrey and even Bucks and Northants have areas of deprivation, have elderly populations requiring social care etc etc - but those areas lost out whilst Labour channelled money to its own areas. So a rebalancing is over due along with an acceptance that supposedly prosperous areas also have deprived areas.

Turning to NPR - some of it will happen, there's no doubt a need for better Trans Pennine links between Manchester and West Yorks, but extending to Liverpool ? That bit could go as the links between Manchester and Liverpool are pretty good even now - Liverpool's about 35 miles and there are trains doing that journey in about 40 mins, Leeds is 40 miles and most trains take over an hour.

Bradford's a distraction - and won't be dealt with. The way the railway lines were built into Bradford has seen to that and NPR isn't going to dig up half of Bradford just to put it on the route.

I would say the Labour deprived heartlands are still deprived compared to those areas you mention, although there will be some deprivation there too.

 

[yorksrob]

Bit in bold - that's a distortion of what was being said - for the record whilst the event was at Tunbridge Wells, the person asking the question was from Thanet which is every bit as deprived as many of the Labour heartlands.

Slightly OT - but during 97-10 the Labour government shamelessly redirected money towards its "deprived heartlands" ignoring the fact that places like Kent, Surrey and even Bucks and Northants have areas of deprivation, have elderly populations requiring social care etc etc - but those areas lost out whilst Labour channelled money to its own areas. So a rebalancing is over due along with an acceptance that supposedly prosperous areas also have deprived areas.

Turning to NPR - some of it will happen, there's no doubt a need for better Trans Pennine links between Manchester and West Yorks, but extending to Liverpool ? That bit could go as the links between Manchester and Liverpool are pretty good even now - Liverpool's about 35 miles and there are trains doing that journey in about 40 mins, Leeds is 40 miles and most trains take over an hour.

Bradford's a distraction - and won't be dealt with. The way the railway lines were built into Bradford has seen to that and NPR isn't going to dig up half of Bradford just to put it on the route.

To be fair, Thanet did, and still does have a very good train service, with reliable links to London (in two directions) and more locally, the rest of Kent with plenty of capacity.

What ever New Labour's largesse to northern areas, this didn't extend to sorting out Northern's no growth franchise, increasing capacity on trans pennine etc

 

[A0]

Not at present! Cancellations are rife.

Caused by staffing issues, not infrastructure. So as others have pointed out NPR does nothing about that.

More of a long-term problem is the CLC line which is still unnelectrified,

Except other lines between Liverpool and Manchester *are* electrified as is a much higher %age of the suburban services into Manchester (or Liverpool) than say Birmingham or Newcastle or Bristol.

and the restriction of the single through island platform at Piccadilly would not be tolerated in the south east.

There are *no* shortage of capacity constraints in the South East - some of them then have ramifications elsewhere in the country e.g. Welwyn viaduct, others cause constraints on their local line e.g. Chelmsford. The south-east also has some of the oldest rolling stock in regular use. So the South East - which let it not be forgotten means in Greater London alone a population of over 9 million - that's more than Greater Manchester (2.8m), Merseyside (1.4m) and West Yorkshire (2.3m) combined - has just as many constraints, except it affects far more people.

We are not talking about small impoverished towns but links between several of the largest and most important cities in the country.

Doesn't mean there's a huge demand to travel between them though. Usually cities are a 'magnet' which draw things to them - the demand for travel between cities i.e. work in one city live in another is quite small, mainly because people choose to city living so they live and work in the same place.

Anyway, express services between two places only 35 miles apart should take much less than 40 minutes.

Because?....... I'm sure there are plenty of places where this *doesn't* happen. The reality is you need a 100 mph linespeed to achieve that and, ideally, a mix of traffic which means you don't have trains tripping over each other or catching up with a slower one.

 

[A0]

To be fair, Thanet did, and still does have a very good train service, with reliable links to London (in two directions) and more locally, the rest of Kent with plenty of capacity.

It can have a brilliant train service, but that doesn't mean there aren't social problems of unemployment, low wages, low attainment at school, health problems etc etc.

It may shock you to learn but a decent train service doesn't cure society's ills. And as somebody who seems to have managed to visit pretty much every far flung place in your travels, I'm surprised you haven't investigated Thanet and see these things for yourself. Though then again, they get a regular train service, whereas your preference is for places which get 2 trains a day which miraculously are always full when you use them.

 

[Grimsby town]

Yep. HS2 is about capacity on a line into London that has no scope for longer trains and no scope for adding more trains. The whole game is different in the North - we are still running silly short trains around the place, which if run at proper lengths (240m, say) would more than double current capacity, which may well be as much as is needed *ever*. Thus NPR is not as important as HS2*, though some "point" interventions (e.g. Manc Picc 15/16) may be worth doing alone. But extending platforms and buying rolling stock is cheap compared to the whole NPR thing.

* Though reduced commuting makes HS2 a *bit* less important, construction has started so might as well finish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==



That's mostly a staffing issue which NPR won't fix.



There are several other options for the CLC than as it is. But even if you do leave it as is, how about if those two fast trains were 240m long and the Northern stoppers 160m? More capacity than will be needed in years.

I agree that HS2 is more important to the UK rail network than the NPR line between Liverpool and Leeds. A lot of anti HS2 people go on about how HS2 only saves '20 minutes' but then support NPR which saves less time. You may also have a point about the length of trains and frequency on the north TPE line.

A lot of Manchester suburban trains can still be extended but the frequency is simply too low from the stations to encourage people out of cars. Most stations in GM have a less than hourly, hourly or at best half hourly service. TfGM quite rightly want local stations to be served by a clock face 15 minute headway. That will require removing intercity trains from the local network above what HS2 delivers. That's why NPR is needed at least between Warrington and Marsden.

 

[MattRat]

A lot of Manchester suburban trains can still be extended but the frequency is simply too low from the stations to encourage people out of cars. Most stations in GM have a less than hourly, hourly or at best half hourly service. TfGM quite rightly want local stations to be served by a clock face 15 minute headway. That will require removing intercity trains from the local network above what HS2 delivers. That's why NPR is needed at least between Warrington and Marsden.

Or by removing commuter trains from the mainline similar to Merseyrail/Crossrail.

 

[yorksrob]

It can have a brilliant train service, but that doesn't mean there aren't social problems of unemployment, low wages, low attainment at school, health problems etc etc.

It may shock you to learn but a decent train service doesn't cure society's ills. And as somebody who seems to have managed to visit pretty much every far flung place in your travels, I'm surprised you haven't investigated Thanet and see these things for yourself. Though then again, they get a regular train service, whereas your preference is for places which get 2 trains a day which miraculously are always full when you use them.

I'm not denying that there aren't social problems in Kent, and in spite of my far flung tendencies, I did live there for twenty years.

That said, this thread is about train services, and for all it's deprivations, East Kent has a bloody good train service.

And yes, I do believe that a decent train service can help to alleviate some of societies ills.

 

[urbophile]

Except other lines between Liverpool and Manchester *are* electrified as is a much higher %age of the suburban services into Manchester (or Liverpool) than say Birmingham or Newcastle or Bristol.

'Other lines'? The only other direct line between the two cities is via Chat Moss. The only other remotely feasible alternative is via Kirkby which is an electrified metro service for much less than half-way, then an infrequent DMU. Suburban services on the CLC, especially at the Manchester end, are lamentably infrequent. And diesel.

There are *no* shortage of capacity constraints in the South East - some of them then have ramifications elsewhere in the country e.g. Welwyn viaduct, others cause constraints on their local line e.g. Chelmsford. The south-east also has some of the oldest rolling stock in regular use. So the South East - which let it not be forgotten means in Greater London alone a population of over 9 million - that's more than Greater Manchester (2.8m), Merseyside (1.4m) and West Yorkshire (2.3m) combined - has just as many constraints, except it affects far more people.

At least the vast majority of passenger services in the SE are electrified, unlike most of Northernland.

 

[snowball]

I'm not denying that there aren't social problems in Kent,

I think you should count the negatives there.

 

[yorksrob]

I think you should count the negatives there.

Yes linguistic malfunction there