Saturdays on the railway in general

[Urban Gateline]

Think it's always been this way, less services and less base turns in the roster on Saturdays than weekdays, and as others have said those on leave is always at full quota or sometimes over compared to weekdays, that coupled with people wanting quite rightly to have their weekends off and not RDW makes it all the more difficult to cover! There are also less spare turns on Saturdays than during the week (at least on the stations staffing side).

The difference between TOC's is interesting though, as DK1 mentioned GA manage to cover jobs quite well, in GTR it seems that Southern/GX also cover well but TL/GN are awful despite only having the driver to source, SN/GX manage to find a driver and OBS/Conductor easily and hardly any cancellations due to shortage of crew (excluding the Ore services!)

There's definitely no easy solution to this issue, the demand for RDW will always be higher on Saturdays and uptake for it lower than on weekdays, no depots are fully staffed anyway!

 

[Undiscovered]

BTP employs 4800 staff at a cost of nearly £420m pa how many are front line staff?

In my neck of the woods: 3.
They cover halfway out to the big city, all the way out to remote island and down to seaside coastal town.
One lives at base while the other two do something. Once their hours are up, pot luck if you get help.
I've taken to calling the BTP embedded officer directly as they command more resources and have sent civil police to assist, especially late at night.
BTP are thoroughly under resourced in my opinion. Mind you, I'm always glad to see them and when they turn out, they're very effective.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In my neck of the woods: 3.
They cover halfway out to the big city, all the way out to remote island and down to seaside coastal town.
One lives at base while the other two do something. Once their hours are up, pot luck if you get help.
I've taken to calling the BTP embedded officer directly as they command more resources and have sent civil police to assist, especially late at night.
BTP are thoroughly under resourced in my opinion. Mind you, I'm always glad to see them and when they turn out, they're very effective.

As of September 2021 BTP had a workforce of 3,113 police officers, 1,415 police staff, 251 police community support officers and 298 special constables not a lot of front line staff to cover the whole UK rail network, LUL & DLR.

 

[Horizon22]

GWR have been struggling for a while now.
The 9 car 800s are regularly full and standing standing, including west of Reading.
Paddington today was extremely busy, and I'm sat here on a crammed 800, I aimed for a train to Oxford hoping it would be quieter. The Weston and Plymouth services had a very large scrum after the platforms were announced.

GWR really do need to reinstate the Bristol superfasts on weekends to relieve the pressure

Depends when you travel. Many forget that weekends also have a "peak" - Around 1000-1200 into major centres / key leisure destinations and 1630-1830 back out again. Travel at 1400-1500 and it's often noticably quieter*. It's hard to cater for that throughout the day although I am fairly sure GWR - and other TOCs (not withstanding those with serious industrial relations issues) - do put in some extra services; for example extra evening services to Bristol/Weston Super Mare around those times.

Oxford / Worcester trains are always absoutely rammed - partly because they are often 5-cars, but also partly due to Oxford being a key leisure destination (as stated above).

GWR leisure demand is easily hitting 100% of pre-Covid demand. As you say even booked stock and at a regular SX timetable (not vastly different from now) many struggle. These types of people don't bring in huge revenues comparatively though (often advance tickets) and with the government looking to make big cuts, one of which I imagine will be with the DfT, I can't see extra stock being procured or maintenance schedules having an overhaul to allow it to be released on the weekend more often. That also includes crew diagrams, which as others have alluded to, can be pretty brutal on a Saturday.

Additionally, I've seen no experience of people being "put off" as the OP puts it - stations are heaving weekend after weekend (and those above core times) and have been for all seasons for the past 12+ months. The railways market has changed but incredibly quickly. Weekends do need an overhaul in how train company's think about them, but that requires strategic, industry-wide thinking which is either lacking or exists but is frustrated by the practicalities of paying for it.

*This is all generalised, I'm sure there will be local circumstances.

 

[RJ]

GA pre pandemic used to be very good in managing rail replacement, in my experience it usually was pretty seamless, longer journey times but that’s to be expected but the actual operation used to be slick loads of staff and buses. However now it’s perfect storm of potentially larger volumes combined with the impossibility of getting enough drivers for the buses and general pressures on cost from above to supply the barest minimum. Today’s experience simply reenforces my view that travelling at weekends when there are no trains running is now sadly to be avoided. Not looking forward to post Christmas when I have to travel and the GEML is bustituted again as per normal at that time of year.

I used to drive the rail replacements years ago and each trip was allocated 3 buses and there would be 30-40 coaches sitting at Newbury Park at any one time - presumably on break and some standbys for the Ingatestone and Billericay routes. Times have definitely changed!

For the first time I brought my own bus (well, one I hired in) out yesterday evening. Was supposed to be doing Shenfield - Ingatestone trips but was taken off that to do Newbury Park to Ingatestone instead. Was very busy indeed and carried 85+ people on each trip. There were a lot of single deck buses and ~50 seat coaches out along with a few double deckers. As I was cruising along the A12, there were buses and coaches going the other way every minute or so full up, with crowds of people continuously arriving at Newbury Park to catch the buses. Gone are the days of dozens of coaches being able to sit around spare! This time there were only penny numbers there that were presumably on their break.

 

[WAB]

The difference between TOC's is interesting though, as DK1 mentioned GA manage to cover jobs quite well, in GTR it seems that Southern/GX also cover well but TL/GN are awful despite only having the driver to source, SN/GX manage to find a driver and OBS/Conductor easily and hardly any cancellations due to shortage of crew (excluding the Ore services!)

Great Northern land has been short of traincrew since WAGN days. They promised they would fix it, as did First Capital Connect and now Great Northern. We all know it'll never happen.

 

[bramling]

Great Northern land has been short of traincrew since WAGN days. They promised they would fix it, as did First Capital Connect and now Great Northern. We all know it'll never happen.

WAGN did make a decent effort to get on top of things in their National Express form. FCC seemed to manage to run things most of the time, despite quietly running things down behind the scenes.

 

[Edsmith]

I used to drive the rail replacements years ago and each trip was allocated 3 buses and there would be 30-40 coaches sitting at Newbury Park at any one time - presumably on break and some standbys for the Ingatestone and Billericay routes. Times have definitely changed!

For the first time I brought my own bus (well, one I hired in) out yesterday evening. Was supposed to be doing Shenfield - Ingatestone trips but was taken off that to do Newbury Park to Ingatestone instead. Was very busy indeed and carried 85+ people on each trip. There were a lot of single deck buses and ~50 seat coaches out along with a few double deckers. As I was cruising along the A12, there were buses and coaches going the other way every minute or so full up, with crowds of people continuously arriving at Newbury Park to catch the buses. Gone are the days of dozens of coaches being able to sit around spare! This time there were only penny numbers there that were presumably on their break.

It's often difficult to get the required number of vehicles for rail replacement services.

 

[ComUtoR]

Others who are less chilled and confident hate it and won't subject themselves to it. We had 2 guards walk off the job in the end yesterday and several more trains heavily delayed due to overcrowding and disorder.

They shouldn't have to subject themselves to it. Well done to your colleagues for taking action. It takes a lot of confidence to walk off a job. Hopefully their concerns will be fully investigated and action taken. They certainly should be supported.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This unfortunately seems to have become, maybe not common, but regular at Euston Underground, ever since the "HS2 alterations" started, involving going out of the station and in again.

The abiliity to close the station when overcrowded was one reason they did that, to be fair, so it's not that the new layout has caused a problem, it has enabled them to do something they couldn't before (bar putting a hapless member of staff with a Tensabarrier at the top of the escalator, which people used to just duck under/push past). The "tunnel" entrance can be closed, and the other one (down the stairs) is hardly known about so would be unlikely to worsen the problem.

 

[LowLevel]

They shouldn't have to subject themselves to it. Well done to your colleagues for taking action. It takes a lot of confidence to walk off a job. Hopefully their concerns will be fully investigated and action taken. They certainly should be supported.

Indeed not - though as I've said before it's a perverse British cultural thing to celebrate acting like a complete disaster of a weekend (remember "a pint and a fight, the Great British Night" of Viz fame!) and short of a national revolution it's hard to see any change coming.

 

[Ken H]

Indeed not - though as I've said before it's a perverse British cultural thing to celebrate acting like a complete disaster of a weekend (remember "a pint and a fight, the Great British Night" of Viz fame!) and short of a national revolution it's hard to see any change coming.

Railways are private places with byelaws against anti social or drunkeness. If they dont stamp down on this then people will find alternative transport methods.

 

[Alfie1014]

.

I used to drive the rail replacements years ago and each trip was allocated 3 buses and there would be 30-40 coaches sitting at Newbury Park at any one time - presumably on break and some standbys for the Ingatestone and Billericay routes. Times have definitely changed!

For the first time I brought my own bus (well, one I hired in) out yesterday evening. Was supposed to be doing Shenfield - Ingatestone trips but was taken off that to do Newbury Park to Ingatestone instead. Was very busy indeed and carried 85+ people on each trip. There were a lot of single deck buses and ~50 seat coaches out along with a few double deckers. As I was cruising along the A12, there were buses and coaches going the other way every minute or so full up, with crowds of people continuously arriving at Newbury Park to catch the buses. Gone are the days of dozens of coaches being able to sit around spare! This time there were only penny numbers there that were presumably on their break.

Thanks for that a useful insight. Was surprised that there was RRB on the GE on Saturday whereas trains ran on the Sunday? Saturday in the football season plus Lord Mayors Show and other events was always going to be busier than the Sunday even with Remembrance Day events seems like a major error of planning judgement?

 

[Magdalia]

Great Northern land has been short of traincrew since WAGN days. They promised they would fix it, as did First Capital Connect and now Great Northern. We all know it'll never happen.

WAGN did make a decent effort to get on top of things in their National Express form. FCC seemed to manage to run things most of the time, despite quietly running things down behind the scenes.

One of the perverse incentives of franchising was for operators to cut back on recruitment towards the end of a franchise period, especially if they were anticipating not getting a renewal. Why spend money on training so that a new operator could get the benefit?

I was commuting at the time of the switch from WAGN to FCC, and my recollection is that's what WAGN did. FCC inherited a shortage from WAGN, and weekend train cancellations on the GN have been a feature to varying degrees ever since then.

One other factor particularly relevant was when Arsenal moved from Highbury to Ashburton Grove, significantly increasing matchday travel and at the same time reducing the availability of drivers.

 

[muz379]

Even taking passenger behavior out of the question , it stands to reason that rail staff don't exist in a vaccum and many of them have familiy or friends that don't work in the industry so won't want to work anymore weekends than necessary .

Some tocs of course also have a premium rate for sunday and flat rate for saturday . If you did need the money and wanted to work at weekend you'd chose the one that pays better . And tbh even if both were flat rate i'd be more inclined to chose a sunday down to the previously mentioned passenger behavior

The only way you will fix this is for transport staff from all industries to be employed on terms that ensure they are available to run the service specified whatever the day of the week or time with minimal use of RDW or overtime. The rostering also needs to reflect in the modern world that workers need to be given a reasonable level of free weekends as well as holiday periods. This will require a basic rate that reflects both the unsocial hours and days of the week as well as an increased level of resource provision. So it will cost more, let alone the time to recruit and train, and their in lies the problem of DfT ever agreeing to this although when the TOCs had control of the budget they clearly were prepared to work with unions and sling money at the problem to keep the service running as it drove their revenue bottom line.

So what sort of railway does the DfT want one that moves people off the roads or one that covers its costs. If its the latter they might as well just jack up ticket prices to suppress demand and minimise the negative travelling experiences being reported above.

The only way things will get better in a sustainable way is with a short term solution like premiums for RDW on saturdays and then a longer term solution to look at providing more people contracted to work saturdays however that is .

They shouldn't have to subject themselves to it. Well done to your colleagues for taking action. It takes a lot of confidence to walk off a job. Hopefully their concerns will be fully investigated and action taken. They certainly should be supported.

Unfortunately much of my experience at the minute seems to be that managers are be putting this down to crew not used to working busy trains because of covid .

Personally in my anecdotal view I feel that things are much worse than before covid , i'd never walked off the job owing to passengers behavior pre covid yet have felt the need post covid .

 

[Kite159]

Oxford / Worcester trains are always absoutely rammed - partly because they are often 5-cars, but also partly due to Oxford being a key leisure destination (as stated above).

Also because they call at Slough, and those people of Slough will rather squeeze onto a nonstop train than to sit on a stopper/semifast.

Solution is to drop the Slough call, especially now Elizabeth line is 4tph towards London (with an extra 2tph GWR semifasts)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also because they call at Slough, and those people of Slough will rather squeeze onto a nonstop train than to sit on a stopper/semifast.

Solution is to drop the Slough call, especially now Elizabeth line is 4tph towards London (with an extra 2tph GWR semifasts)

Solution is that if there's the demand for it, run 9 cars on them. Not to inconvenience people because it's operationally a bit awkward.

Alternatively, rejig things so the Slough fast is a GWR EMU to Didcot and not an IET to Oxford.

 

[Horizon22]

Also because they call at Slough, and those people of Slough will rather squeeze onto a nonstop train than to sit on a stopper/semifast.

Solution is to drop the Slough call, especially now Elizabeth line is 4tph towards London (with an extra 2tph GWR semifasts)

My experience is that its already packed before Slough (I'm talking about towards Oxford on a weekend not vice versa).

When the Didcot Parkway service becomes fast Paddington <> Slough and runs on the Main Lines this should alleviate the issue somewhat - not sure if GWR will then remove the stop on the N. Cotswold services. The route cause is of course that electrification has only reached Didcot Parkway not Oxford, which was meant to be the original terminus.

Solution is that if there's the demand for it, run 9 cars on them. Not to inconvenience people because it's operationally a bit awkward.

Alternatively, rejig things so the Slough fast is a GWR EMU to Didcot and not an IET to Oxford.

Then you're pulling a 9-car from Wales / Bristol or West of England work. The issue is that its absoutely rammed to Oxford but 80% of people get off there. Probably one of the only suitable places where splitting might be beneficial, as a 5-car is plenty from Oxford - Worcester/Hereford.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Midlands and North West, basically - so we tend to get hit from all angles with the number of high profile teams in the area. There's nothing like standing on the platform at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly or Sheffield watching rival fans banging on train windows and throwing bottles. Not helped by a lack of trains meaning people get wedged in like sardines into a can.

As it happens my race goers later on were far more pleasant than usual as I crammed 250 people into a 2 carriage 156 - they took it very well and there was no vomiting, peeing in doorways or fighting.

Personally I'm not picky and that's why I still get stuck in - I relieved my slightly surprised punters where I was physically able to check tickets of nearly £500. As it happens yesterday my trains were very busy with mostly happy if slightly boisterous types and there was no problem.

Others who are less chilled and confident hate it and won't subject themselves to it. We had 2 guards walk off the job in the end yesterday and several more trains heavily delayed due to overcrowding and disorder.

It is very stressful for all concerned, passengers and staff alike.

Problem is you get a large group of (mainly) men who have been to the pub wanting to get home at tea time with everyone else. When the trains are working as planned it is great but they get as frustrated as anyone when they don't.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, I'll happily work my rostered weekend shifts (2/3), I have no issue with having fans of any sport being on my train. If anything I enjoy the craic with sports fans, stag and hen parties etc.

The question was why do staff not want to work on a Saturday and I am giving a reason for it. Like it or not, the behaviour seen on trains on the weekend by such people happens. Every weekend. And I would also add that the group mentality of football fans in particular causes extra issues including ticketless travel on my old and current lines (WBA/Wolves) as they know it's simply impossible for checks to be made between them boarding and leaving. So I would argue that a lot of the troublemakers are not even customers of the railway!

Don't get me wrong, if Saturday working is optional and staff don't want to do it then it is up to them.

Speaking from personal experience I was up at Wolverhampton last weekend and got a coach because I couldn't trust the trains. When I have been up previously it has either involved going through he dateline at Marylebone (which in my experience is always manned) or out of Euston which involves a change at New Street so not much chance of avoiding ticket inspection.

My broader point if football fans are abandoning the railways on a Saturday then other people will be and they might prove difficult to get back on it. That is bad for the environment and bad for the train industry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you're pulling a 9-car from Wales / Bristol or West of England work. The issue is that its absoutely rammed to Oxford but 80% of people get off there. Probably one of the only suitable places where splitting might be beneficial, as a 5-car is plenty from Oxford - Worcester/Hereford.

If they're rammed to Oxford then yes, use 10 cars and split there.

You may also be able to make the one not going past Oxford a 9, and price people onto it a bit using Advances.

But what is *really* needed is electrification to Oxford and a 12 car EMU on the one not going further.

 

[Horizon22]

But what is *really* needed is electrification to Oxford and a 12 car EMU on the one not going further.

Can't disagree there!

 

[Kite159]

I guess it doesn't help that Chiltern slowed down their Oxford services compared to pre Covid (from memory it was a hourly Marylebone - Bicester Village - Oxford Park & Oxford). Therefore those tourists heading to Oxford will use the faster GWR services.

 

[Taunton]

Thanks for that a useful insight. Was surprised that there was RRB on the GE on Saturday whereas trains ran on the Sunday? Saturday in the football season plus Lord Mayors Show and other events was always going to be busier than the Sunday even with Remembrance Day events seems like a major error of planning judgement?

One of the issues is that engineering planning has got so much in advance, sometimes we hear 12 months, that it gets ahead of events being planned which the railway customers will want to travel to.

Saturday 12 November ? West Ham at home (always a very significant Saturday travel peak for east London), start of Christmas shopping, where Stratford has in the area significantly taken over from car-oriented Lakeside, Lord Mayor's Show, first non-raining weekend for a while - it was a really busy travel day all round, roads as well.

 

[The Planner]

One of the issues is that engineering planning has got so much in advance, sometimes we hear 12 months, that it gets ahead of events being planned which the railway customers will want to travel to.

Saturday 12 November ? West Ham at home (always a very significant Saturday travel peak for east London), start of Christmas shopping, where Stratford has in the area significantly taken over from car-oriented Lakeside, Lord Mayor's Show, first non-raining weekend for a while - it was a really busy travel day all round, roads as well.

It is more than 12 months, 2024 is already out there and TOC/FOCs are responding to version 1 of the proposed plan now.

 

[gazzaa2]

Problem is you get a large group of (mainly) men who have been to the pub wanting to get home at tea time with everyone else. When the trains are working as planned it is great but they get as frustrated as anyone when they don't.


My broader point if football fans are abandoning the railways on a Saturday then other people will be and they might prove difficult to get back on it. That is bad for the environment and bad for the train industry.

The problem is mainly capacity. The trains are packed out as it is (inadequate rolling stock/cancellations/Covid timetable still in place on many routes). If you're travelling around London then the tube is built to generally carry that capacity of however many football/sports fans but when you're running one train an hour on a busy route and it's a packed out 2 or 3 carriage train, then you can't accommodate scores of football fans on top of that. It just makes for an uncomfortable journey and that's where the problems kick in.

I know plenty of football fans who've abandoned the trains because they just can't be accommodated (low capacity) or they're just far too unreliable to get them to the game they've paid for, or to get them home without standing in a train station car park in the middle of nowhere at midnight waiting for taxis. They're now back on club coaches as they can be relied on to a) get them there and back and b) actually get a seat. I was talking to a fan recently who has a fair commute for home games and he's looking at giving up his season ticket because of how shambolic the trains have been this season.

 

[Birmingham]

Solution is that if there's the demand for it, run 9 cars on them. Not to inconvenience people because it's operationally a bit awkward.

Alternatively, rejig things so the Slough fast is a GWR EMU to Didcot and not an IET to Oxford.

A few Oxford/Cotswold services are indeed 9 car at the busiest times, weekdays and weekends.

 

[Jamesrob637]

It makes me miss furlough days when I could travel on quieter weekdays. Plus I'd see more freight!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Solution is that if there's the demand for it, run 9 cars on them. Not to inconvenience people because it's operationally a bit awkward.

Alternatively, rejig things so the Slough fast is a GWR EMU to Didcot and not an IET to Oxford.

I believe this is basically the plan from May 2023, as part of the plan to send the Didcot semi-fast EMUs up the Main line from Dolphin to Paddington and vice versa.

 

[Amateurish]

My personal experience of travelling from Coventry to London on Saturday with Avanti (1st class). Obviously the reduced timetable was published late.

09:30 and 09:50 cancelled. 10:30 turns up already full and standing (not surprising). 1st class declassified. Staff stuck in the crew compartment. People in 1st ask for water but crew refuse for "health and safety" reasons. Absolutely rammed. Delay at MKC because the train is overloaded?

Return from Euston: 19:40 cancelled. 20:25 cancelled. We take the 21:04 (delayed 20 minutes). Again no 1st class catering at all. Train obviously rammed again.

I've just spent a couple of weeks travelling around West and Central Europe by train, and I can say without hesitation that our network is in a crisis without parallel in Europe.

 

[SussexSeagull]

The problem is mainly capacity. The trains are packed out as it is (inadequate rolling stock/cancellations/Covid timetable still in place on many routes). If you're travelling around London then the tube is built to generally carry that capacity of however many football/sports fans but when you're running one train an hour on a busy route and it's a packed out 2 or 3 carriage train, then you can't accommodate scores of football fans on top of that. It just makes for an uncomfortable journey and that's where the problems kick in.

I know plenty of football fans who've abandoned the trains because they just can't be accommodated (low capacity) or they're just far too unreliable to get them to the game they've paid for, or to get them home without standing in a train station car park in the middle of nowhere at midnight waiting for taxis. They're now back on club coaches as they can be relied on to a) get them there and back and b) actually get a seat. I was talking to a fan recently who has a fair commute for home games and he's looking at giving up his season ticket because of how shambolic the trains have been this season.

I entirely agree. I am a Brighton fan and the stadium at Falmer probably wouldn't have been built if Falmer Station wasn't there (the club looked at a site just north of Brighton at Sheepcote Valley with a view to having a new station between Preston Park and Hassocks but it was a none starter) and it when it works well it works really well, especially as you get travel round the immediate Brighton area free with your ticket so there is no need to check tickets.

I used to quite enjoy getting the train to away matches as it is a fairly leisurely way of doing it and historically was a fairly cheap way of doing it, although that has changed over the last few years. With the train service in it's current state I wouldn't dream of trusting it to get me to a game in the north and back again and have even started getting the coach to London matches.

It's actually quite sad. A few years ago I went to Newcastle away and was up there in time for lunch and back home to the Sussex coast in time for a visit to the pub should the mood have taken us.