Vivarail to enter administration

[Thirteen]

The business model wasn't a bad one, up cycling rolling stock that was still in good nick but I think Vivarail bit off more than they could chew with the 230s. The 484s in comparison was a slightly easier process.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Obviously they should get it wired and use 11.390

(This post is not speculative, because it's such a ridiculous suggestion that nobody would seriously even speculate that that might happen despite the odd traction it's hosted over the years! )

Don't be ridiculous, what would be perfect is a Bi-Mode 88 coupled to a class 442 .

My feeling is that, as mentioned above, the railway has become far too used to buying shiny new kit and replacing older trains long before the end of their economic life, although there are are exceptions. This is combined with a feeling that each company must outdo the others by having newer trains, and anyway it is somebody else’s money that pays for the stuff. And all the non-railway interests (‘stakeholders’) demand that they get the latest trains. The carefully planned cascades of BR days which spread some improvement across the network at the lowest cost and got the best out of trains over their lifetime is probably regarded as ridiculously old fashioned nowadays.

With interest rates rising the buy new on the never never will go out of fashion. Sadly, after we recover from Covid-19 austerity, there will be a shortage of "mature" trains to revamp.

The battery and hydrogen ideas have all been more recent. The original plan, when you think about it, to take a load of 70s Tube stock and mass convert them into the next "Pacer" - as it was originally envisioned these would rule the branch lines and less well-patronised rural routes of the UK - was a vanity project. I reckon the fact three TOCs took them and actually brought the idea to fruition is very surprising and against the odds.

Well it was a tempting idea and there is (was) a need. But it got too expensive and too much teething problems. What could have been....

It is absolutely not a vanity project. You don't buy a sizeable proportion of the D stock fleet for a vanity project.

Although sales have been limited, it was an enterprising, entrepreneurial business: that is something that we should never discourage. It may have failed, but that is the nature of such enterprises: some work, some don't. To criticise - usually from an armchair - without the full facts (as on a forum like this) is very easy. Rather harder to get a venture like this off the ground.

Very true. I wonder what proportion of ideas and inventions failed and subsequently got forgotten.

Seems a lot of doom and gloom on here, administration is just that, administration, there may well be an investor willing to take care of the financial side

Yes. Lets not talk Vivarail down.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Seems a lot of doom and gloom on here, administration is just that, administration, there may well be an investor willing to take care of the financial side

Possibly but if no one wants the whole business im sure they will find buyers for bits of it.

 

[Zontar]

The business model wasn't a bad one, up cycling rolling stock that was still in good nick but I think Vivarail bit off more than they could chew with the 230s. The 484s in comparison was a slightly easier process.

Yes. If they had kept them electric it would probably have been more successful, but they turned them into something they never were, which probably worked on paper....but as we see, not in reality.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes. If they had kept them electric it would probably have been more successful, but they turned them into something they never were, which probably worked on paper....but as we see, not in reality.

Still lets not forget even the big boys can't get right either ie 701's all with a common denominator of overly complicating trains with too much dependency on software

 

[Woods]

In one of the biggest ironies ever, Linkedin is reporting that Vivarail today won a Golder Spanner for most reliable repurposed train (the Class 484). That's got to hurt.

 

[ExRes]

In one of the biggest ironies ever, Linkedin is reporting that Vivarail today won a Golder Spanner for most reliable repurposed train (the Class 484). That's got to hurt.

It won't hurt if it helps convince a potential investor that there's a future for the company

 

[Zontar]

It won't hurt if it helps convince a potential investor that there's a future for the company

Ok as a potential investor, are you going to put more weight and faith into a company who won an award in LinkedIn over the fact they are facing liquidation?

 

[Thirteen]

It'd be cheaper to take their patents and what they did to make the 484s over taking over the companies.

 

[ExRes]

Ok as a potential investor, are you going to put more weight and faith into a company who won an award in LinkedIn over the fact they are facing liquidation?

Yes, I'd be looking to put my money into a company that wins things, obviously I've no idea who actually 'voted' for them but I assume it's people that know something about the industry, above all, of course, is what my accountants find ....

It'd be cheaper to take their patents and what they did to make the 484s over taking over the companies.

You don't 'take' patents, you buy them

 

[Darandio]

Yes, I'd be looking to put my money into a company that wins things, obviously I've no idea who actually 'voted' for them but I assume it's people that know something about the industry, above all, of course, is what my accountants find ....

Given the issues many of the repurposed fleets have had in recent years i'd be wanting to know the figures involved and what they were up against. It might turn out that it wasn't particularly difficult to win that award.

 

[Mikey C]

At least having been through the Vivarail treatment means that the 484s are, mechanically and internally, a massive step up.

The D78s as withdrawn by London Underground would have been a massive step up internally over the 483s.

And mechanically they were in decent enough condition. It wasn't as if they NEEDED all the extra work done on them, even if was desitable.

 

[Thirteen]

The D78s as withdrawn by London Underground would have been a massive step up internally over the 483s.

And mechanically they were in decent enough condition. It wasn't as if they NEEDED all the extra work done on them, even if was desitable.

The extra work has probably added another decade to the former D78s.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Possibly but if no one wants the whole business im sure they will find buyers for bits of it.

Even the remaining bodyshells will have some value, even if its halfway through being made into another class 230 or class 484. Simply finish off what there is and lease the lot out to recupperate the expediture on the bits bought from the administrators.

 

[tbtc]

A shame

This was the kind of private sector innovation that was supposed to happen more and more - instead the big ROSCOs have been fairly conservative and it felt to firms like Vivarail to fill a niche

It might have worked too, if Network Rail has delivered upon the promised electrification (meaning that there was an expectation that a lot of secondary routes would have been wired in CP6

e.g. if the main TransPennine line was wired from Manchester to a York in CP5 then it might have been likely that Northern would be able to run conventional EMUs on routes like the Calder Valley/ Harrogate by the end of CP6, so they just needed something to tide them over in that five/ seven year period between Accessibility legislation meaning Pacers were scrapped and the subsequent electrification of b-list routes (same goes with electrification of the MML to Sheffield in CP5 meaning the has to Doncaster/ Moorthorpe etc became viable in CP6 since there was a locally trained team and the stations at both ends had already been done

Instead, electrification was delayed/ deferred/ cancelled, so TOCs ended up buying pure DMUs whilst lots of midlife EMUs were scrapped (or sit decaying in sidings in the hope that one day they’ll be needed)… a real shame

Also, whilst the government took the financial hit necessary to replace old HSTs with a coordinated programme of 125mph trains capable of 100mph on diesel, they generally ignored the hundreds of Pacer (and 153) carriages needing scrapped, leaving it up to individual TOCs. If they’d given sustainable backing to a 100mph EMU capable of 75mph on diesel, maybe we’d have seen a viable solution (but focusing on fast exciting flagship trains is always more fun)

I thought it was worth taking a risk on, because I wanted to believe that we’d have electrified lots of railway in CP5/CP6, and D-trains seemed a good way of dealing with the awkward gap that an unprepared Railway faced between scrapping Pacers by the end of 2019 and converting lots of “Provincial” lines to electrification in the mid 2020s

In hindsight it didn’t work, and I think it’s important to acknowledge when you backed a wrong horse. But I think that some of the failure of the project was down to factors outside of their control - they took a commercial risk based on the information known at the time and they lost

Obviously a number of things were their fault too - fires, reliability - that makes it a lot harder to justify taking a risk on the project - I’m clearly not defending that side of things. However, they tried, they bet their money on something that has only had niche take-up. It’s just that there are a few lightly used rural routes where the lower running costs (and ability to do things like have someone drive out in a Transit van and swap the Transit van engine/ fuel tanks of the 230 with replacements seems a lot easier than having to shuttle trains all the way back to the “depot” on a regular basis) made it an interesting proposition

One of those “What if” situations that we might find ourselves arguing about in years to come (much like “What if Arriva had won the TPE bid and introduced the first of four coach 180s that they promised; would the railway have been better off with a larger fleet of these trains, especially as this may have affected decisions like Midland Mainline ordering 222s… are could he looking at around a hundred 180s rather than small fleets of 180/185/222s?”… But that’s a story for another thread)

 

[12LDA28C]

If this is the end of Vivarail it's a real shame. I know some of the guys there and they have all worked extremely hard on the project which admittedly suffered some setbacks early on but the units in service seem to be performing much better now which is testament to the work put in and the knowledge of the technology gained over time.

To see an entire Class 230 genset removed and replaced on Bletchley depot in twenty minutes flat was pretty impressive and the units were good from a driver's point of view.

Let's hope a buyer is found.

 

[snowball]

Yes, I'd be looking to put my money into a company that wins things, obviously I've no idea who actually 'voted' for them but I assume it's people that know something about the industry, above all, of course, is what my accountants find ....

As far as I know the only Golden Spanners are the Modern Railways ones which were held on Friday and are based on performance statistics not votes.

 

[Mikey C]

The extra work has probably added another decade to the former D78s.

The previous 1938 stock trains arrived in the IoW in 1989 and lasted over 30 years, with just cosmetic work. The D78s were much newer when removed from service.

 

[bramling]

Yes. If they had kept them electric it would probably have been more successful, but they turned them into something they never were, which probably worked on paper....but as we see, not in reality.

The problem with that, is why would anyone want to buy a converted D stock as an EMU, when there’s a whole list of much newer EMUs of various types which have disappeared. 455, 456, 321, 365, 360/2, not to mention types which are either homeless now or likely to be in the near future, 379 and 350/2.

The IOW application was a special case, but didn’t really need Vivarail. It is certainly an interesting question as to what might have happened with the 483s had Vivarail not been on the scene. Would a really heavy refurbishment / life extension have been viable?

 

[Thirteen]

The IOW application was a special case, but didn’t really need Vivarail. It is certainly an interesting question as to what might have happened with the 483s had Vivarail not been on the scene. Would a really heavy refurbishment / life extension have been viable?

I'm not sure if another refurbishment of the 483s was ever an option, they were two left that were serviceable and it was becoming harder to maintain them.

 

[Bertie the bus]

In one of the biggest ironies ever, Linkedin is reporting that Vivarail today won a Golder Spanner for most reliable repurposed train (the Class 484). That's got to hurt.

How many repurposed trains are there? The 230s, the 484s, the 769s, any others? Vivarail would have struggled not to win that category.

 

[amazon1675]

It is absolutely not a vanity project. You don't buy a sizeable proportion of the D stock fleet for a vanity project.

Although sales have been limited, it was an enterprising, entrepreneurial business: that is something that we should never discourage. It may have failed, but that is the nature of such enterprises: some work, some don't. To criticise - usually from an armchair - without the full facts (as on a forum like this) is very easy. Rather harder to get a venture like this off the ground.

There may be a gap in the market,but is there a market in the gap as they say ? I'm not taking any pleasure in the fact things have gone sour.The fast charge battery tech was very appealing for a project my colleagues talked to them about.Hopefully staff can find new positions doing something similar.

 

[Mikey C]

How many repurposed trains are there? The 230s, the 484s, the 769s, any others? Vivarail would have struggled not to win that category.

The 484s are hardly that repurposed either.

 

[D365]

There may be a gap in the market,but is there a market in the gap as they say ? I'm not taking any pleasure in the fact things have gone sour.The fast charge battery tech was very appealing for a project my colleagues talked to them about.Hopefully staff can find new positions doing something similar.

As you say, the battery tech is of interest to others, so it leaves me wondering what happened to make the bottom fall out so quickly.

 

[43096]

As you say, the battery tech is of interest to others, so it leaves me wondering what happened to make the bottom fall out so quickly.

Cashflow, presumably.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you say, the battery tech is of interest to others, so it leaves me wondering what happened to make the bottom fall out so quickly.

It reads like they were losing money all along but were being backed financially by one entity (Shooter perhaps?) but that backing was withdrawn and they weren't viable without it.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It seems quite clear why they are in financial trouble. Apparently they have 70 employees. That is at least £3-4 million per annum, possibly double that, in staff costs alone. When you have that sort of outgoings you need to sell stuff and a couple of units here or there isn't going to pay the bills.

 

[Zontar]

Bit of insight from someone on the front line. When you hear/see the physical people, it forces more empathy. Well for me anyway.

 

[James H]

It reads like they were losing money all along but were being backed financially by one entity (Shooter perhaps?) but that backing was withdrawn and they weren't viable without it.

Looking at Companies House, it must be that Henry Posner III's Railroad Development Corp has declined to continue funding the losses

 

[birchesgreen]

When the Vivarail project began the idea of building brand new DMUs seemed verboten, hence there appeared to be a much larger market for D-trains than there eventually turned out to be as, of course, we are getting brand new DMUs after all. I think the speed of the D-trains has proven to be a big hinderance, meaning its been restricted to a few fairly isolated parts of the network.