Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

[DanNCL]

As a passenger, I'm utterly frustrated and angry at both sides. The government are incredibly intransigent, but the RMT clearly have an agenda - as shown by rejecting a deal that is not far off what was agreed in Wales and Scotland? (If this isn't true, then apologies). In an era where public money is limited railways are a very long way down most voters priorities - so this will lead to cuts. Personally, I'm facing a third Christmas period de facto locked down given I rely on public transport - so yes, I'm damn annoyed (at both sides).

It's a long way off the Welsh and Scottish deals. Full ticket office closures and full DOO, even on long distance services such as LNER, as well as a catering 'review' (so likely removal of that too). The Welsh and Scottish offers largely kept job conditions as they were. They certainly didn't involve DOO or mass ticket office closures.

 

[JonathanH]

If we are genuinely facing all this disruption over the government not being willing to give another 1-2% then words fail me at the incompetence and intransigence of the government.

The disruption is almost not about pay now. It is about the complete destruction of the jobs of ticket office staff and train guards represented by the RMT.

The post from 800001 (post 387) indicates 13 conditions to the pay award, almost none of them positive for the staff involved.

 

[350401]

It's a long way off the Welsh and Scottish deals. Full ticket office closures and full DOO, even on long distance services such as LNER, as well as a catering 'review' (so likely removal of that too). The Welsh and Scottish offers largely kept job conditions as they were. They certainly didn't involve DOO or mass ticket office closures.

Okay, thanks for the clarification - that's worse than I thought. Though I think some ticket office closures are inevitable, DOO on InterCity is an absolute mick take. I'm guessing this is one of those things that won't be bought off with more money (5+5 or 6+6)? Meaning we are in for a southern-style long running dispute, with us dear punters once again caught in the crossfire.

 

[winks]

Any clues as to what they have planned re Annual leave and sick pay? A/L entitlement is pretty low on the railways compared to NR and other public bodies. 30 + days is standard and I believe NR it’s 28 + BH.

 

[craigybagel]

As a passenger, I'm utterly frustrated and angry at both sides. The government are incredibly intransigent, but the RMT clearly have an agenda - as shown by rejecting a deal that is not far off what was agreed in Wales and Scotland? (If this isn't true, then apologies). In an era where public money is limited railways are a very long way down most voters priorities - so this will lead to cuts. Personally, I'm facing a third Christmas period de facto locked down given I rely on public transport - so yes, I'm damn annoyed (at both sides).

Wales was 6.6% immediately and back paid to last July, no DOO, and only relatively minor changes to T&C's - a whole world away from this garbage offer.

RMT were right to reject it, there's not a hope it would have been accepted

 

[L+Y]

The disruption is almost not about pay now. It is about the complete destruction of the jobs of ticket office staff and train guards represented by the RMT.

Which is why, once again, I can't help but feel that a lot of strawmen have been erected by the RDG for the RMT to knock down. Was DOO extension even talked about as a serious point of the dispute a week ago?

 

[matthewjohnson]

Both sides need locking in a room until they agree on something. The whole situation is utterly pathetic for a sp called developed nation

 

[Exscrew]

Opinions on the NR deal people ?

 

[Iskra]

Looking at the conditions attached to the offer, it is clear that it would be flat-out rejected.

I thought an 8% rise was decent, but it’s clear Lynch thinks otherwise (as the RMT statement says that none of the criteria of pay, conditions or security were met)

Putting DOO was stupid and even if it was 5+5 or more, this would’ve been rejected on that basis.

I note that catering staff/provisions are getting reduced in that offer too, which isn’t going to go down well.

I’m as equally ****ed off at both sides in this dispute, and as much as I can’t say I stand with the RMT on many things, I can’t blame them for rejecting what is a pitiful offer on the basis of conditions.

That said, both sides need to be open to negotiations and finding a compromise, something I’ve seen no eagerness from either party to do thus far.

I’m not sure it was ever intended as a serious offer. It comes across as just a negotiations starting position so that a watered-down version may eventually be agreed, which can still be hailed as a victory for both sides. This offer is actually a great opportunity for both sides to hammer out a deal and to come out looking good to their supporters further down the line. As ridiculous as it looks, it could actually be the starting point of a resolution.

 

[ARIC]

rejecting a deal that is not far off what was agreed in Wales and Scotland? (If this isn't true, then apologies).

It bears no relationship to these deals, and would have certainly been rejected outside of England.

But it looks like the government's plan is working, even with the details published people can't see the obvious problems. Yes the RMT has an agenda, it shouldn't be a surprise that that agenda isn't the majority of their membership permanently losing their role on the railway.

 

[CFRAIL]

I wonder whether there'll be an improved offer over the coming days OR whether the DFT will say "we've tried and the RMT want to ruin Christmas".

I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe that booking offices are safe forever, and also there are many that would take VSS, so presumably redundancies can be avoided on the whole.

DOO is a whole new ball game, but again is inevitably coming down the track. Guarantee a second member of train staff (OBS style), and I think there'll be some traction.

Looks to me as though this is a deliberately maximal offer from the RDG to allow concessions to be won by the RMT leadership later - or am I being optimistic?

Could, for example, 5+5, DOO off the table, and no redundancies until April 2026, be then spun as a win?

I'd expect something along these lines...

 

[ARIC]

Was DOO extension even talked about as a serious point of the dispute a week ago?

From the very outset of the dispute, yes. In fact the conditions are almost exactly what we were told about before the first ballot, only 4+4% is news.

 

[DanNCL]

Okay, thanks for the clarification - that's worse than I thought. Though I think some ticket office closures are inevitable, DOO on InterCity is an absolute mick take. I'm guessing this is one of those things that won't be bought off with more money (5+5 or 6+6)? Meaning we are in for a southern-style long running dispute, with us dear punters once again caught in the crossfire.

Definitely not. I don't even think an outrageous pay rise such as 50% would buy them off on that.

This'll go on either until the government have their hand forced or (more likely) when we have a change of government.

 

[JoeyB]

Opinions on the NR deal people ?

It's good. Particularly as those on the lowest grades and bands get a higher %. I work it out as 11% + over 2 years for those on the least.

I hope they put it to the membership.

 

[66701GBRF]

I thought an 8% rise was decent, but it’s clear Lynch thinks otherwise (as the RMT statement says that none of the criteria of pay, conditions or security were met)

It isn't a true 8% rise though is it. It is 4% this year and 4% next year with a host of strings. It's like saying we will give you a 20% rise but over 5 years.

 

[HSTEd]

Both sides need locking in a room until they agree on something. The whole situation is utterly pathetic for a sp called developed nation

The Government ultimately has calculated that it can break the Union without substantial political blowback. It's going to attempt to force through the conditions it wants and doesn't particularly care about disruption in the mean time - it probably expects that an overtime ban will start to grind down unity in the Union as it drags on.

This will be a fight to the finish in all likelihood.

 

[JonathanH]

Guarantee a second member of train staff (OBS style), and I think there'll be some traction.

The issue with that is that the deals often come with the second member of train staff only guaranteed for a finite period, which means it can be reviewed at that point. At that time, the OBS have no bargaining power at all, because they are no longer safety critical.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought an 8% rise was decent,

Its NOT 8%. Its 4% in Year 1 and another 4% in year 2

This'll go on either until the government have their hand forced or (more likely) when we have a change of government.

Or the government tells the operators to impose the conditions on the staff as it did in the OBS dispute and at that point don't be surprised if the 4 + 4 wage offer is removed (I wouldn't be if it was).

 

[the sniper]

As a passenger, I'm utterly frustrated and angry at both sides. The government are incredibly intransigent, but the RMT clearly have an agenda - as shown by rejecting a deal that is not far off what was agreed in Wales and Scotland? (If this isn't true, then apologies).

It really couldn't be much more different. The conditions attached to the English/DfT deal are almost comically bold, to put it politely.

It's usually as disaster for the operators in terms of inflaming the work force when their ideal wish list comes out, hence why I was surprised @Bald Rick was so keen for the process to be more public. It turns throwing brown stuff at the wall to see what sticks in negations into the employer setting out their manifesto for a dystopian future...

 

[td97]

ASDO is not a completely reliable method of opening the correct number of doors and carriages.

I was actually referring to mitigating against wrong side release rather than selective door operation. Even if not infallible, there are contingency methods of working in the event of failure.

But on some other lines, the conductor merely leans out of the centre cab window (on 2 x 4cars) and presses the door release - even when, due to platform curvature, the ends of the train can't be seen.

Good, experienced guards know when it's down-right obvious the train has stopped in the operational area of a platform.

I generally favour driver door release

Thank you for the most sensible response on this thread. Nobody (guards, drivers or travelling public) except HMT wants full DOO at any price, but there are sensible modernisation improvements that can be made, especially with modern rolling stock and accessibility improvements at stations - and driver door release is one of them.

 

[DanNCL]

The Government ultimately has calculated that it can break the Union without substantial political blowback. It's going to attempt to force through the conditions it wants and doesn't particularly care about disruption in the mean time - it probably expects that an overtime ban will start to grind down unity in the Union as it drags on.

The RMT will ultimately last longer than this government.

Or the government tells the operators to impose the conditions on the staff as it did in the OBS dispute and at that point don't be surprised if the 4 + 4 wage offer is removed (I wouldn't be if it was).

The government are unlikely to last long enough to bother with that. Come May 2024 it's Labour's issue to deal with.

I wonder whether there'll be an improved offer over the coming days OR whether the DFT will say "we've tried and the RMT want to ruin Christmas".

The latter I suspect

 

[winks]

Can someone publish the NR deal (full version) ?

 

[Class 170101]

Offer received by rmt below

What does Bullet point 12 mean?

 

[HSTEd]

The RMT will ultimately last longer than this government.

So the overtime ban and repeated strikes will continue until at least January 2025?

13 months of 11 hours a day operation and repeated massive disruption - there won't be a railway left.

 

[Class 170101]

The government are unlikely to last long enough to bother with that. Come May 2024 it's Labour's issue to deal with.

The Government could force the deal almost immediately if they wanted.

 

[RHolmes]

So the overtime ban and repeated strikes will continue until at least January 2025?

Even without the imposing overtime ban, it’s obvious that the train operations can not run a normal timetable.

You wouldn’t even require an overtime ban in some cases to cause disruption

 

[ComUtoR]

Now that we have seen the offer from the Government. I think that Mick needs to show his cards too. What points have the RMT requested etc.

My TOC have been using C-ASDO retrofitted to units for around two years now and atleast once a week I have to resolve an ASDO issue, where the computer systems have failed to open the correct number of doors at usual platforms.

C ?

 

[JonathanH]

The Government could force the deal almost immediately if they wanted.

How? Firing all the staff and imposing new contracts would not be without its problems.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Its NOT 8%. Its 4% in Year 1 and another 4% in year 2

Which is equivalent over 2 years of 6.08% this year and no increase next year.

 

[JonathanH]

Which is equivalent over 2 years of 6.08% this year and no increase next year.

How does your maths work on that?