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Well a signaller can only be in one place for one shift!
No matter how few trains are running there is an irreducible minimum of signallers who must be in position for a line to operate at all.
Short of trying to use helicopters to move signallers around in pace with trains, if you don't have enough staff to cover the required number of posts the line is closed.
Indeed. Which is exactly what I said in Post#232: On lines with manual signalboxes, such as the Glasgow & South Western line, being unable to staff even just one box could shut the route. But I was thinking of signalling centres with multiple staff on duty.
Yes, but this still leaves the box staffed on the nightshift! Unless NR has re-allocated those rostered nightshift to the dayshift, to provide full panel coverage for the latter; But I'm not sure that, in the present climate, Signallers would co-operate in this......
That’s precisely the point of the rumoured daytime only timetable (which is what this thread was about originally…!) - sacrificing availability of signalling nightshift cover to better guarantee daytime cover.
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www.southwesternrailway.com
18 December 2022 to 2 January 2023 RMT and TSSA overtime ban
In addition to the strike days above, the RMT and TSSA have notified us that its members have been instructed not to book on for any overtime on these dates.
This also applies to RMT and TSSA members at Network Rail for the same period of time. Customers should expect severe disruption throughout this period.
We expect this decision to have a significant impact on the service levels we can provide throughout these two weeks, so customers should anticipate severe disruption.
We will post further information on this page once we have confirmed what service levels we can provide during this period. Customers intending to travel during this time should check back for updates.
His statement that Putin wants UK strikes is a disgrace - using the Ukraine situation to pressure those on strike is a new low for this Government of repeated lows.
It’s no worse than Truss mentioning striking rail staff something like four times in her final PMQs.
When you’ve just trashed an economy, caused a crisis with mortgages and pensions, wiped double-figure percentages off share values and caused the currency to plunge at a time of high inflation, yeah striking rail staff is really the big evil.
No wonder they’re all lining up not to contest the next election, the problem is the country (again) ends up screwed because Labour have their own issues, not least having been wildly supportive of the extended lockdowns which have caused much of all this trouble, and handing them a blank cheque (which a landslide victory will do) isn’t a good outcome for the country either.
In short, this whole country is screwed. This is the consequence of the gradual but sustained drying up of political talent over the last two to three decades. Here we are, the tank has run dry.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That’s precisely the point of the rumoured daytime only timetable (which is what this thread was about originally…!) - sacrificing availability of signalling nightshift cover to better guarantee daytime cover.
So, am I understanding right that the plan is to move staff to give full coverage for the day shift, and run with a skeleton staff on the night shift to cover possessions and such. And presumably close altogether small boxes on nights which would result in sections of line having to be shut?
So, am I understanding right that the plan is to move staff to give full coverage for the day shift, and run with a skeleton staff on the night shift to cover possessions and such. And presumably close altogether small boxes on nights which would result in sections of line having to be shut?
But if the daytime timetable rumour coming from various places was true, it seems like this would be one way of better guaranteeing a daytime service.
Relief signallers can contractually be rostered days or nights (yes yes with exceptions etc) rather than resident signallers who work a regular roster pattern. So if the reliefs get used to cover any required daytime shifts, there’s less need for overtime to keep trains running. But it would definitely then mean a high chance of some night shifts going uncovered.
I'm hedging my bets and instead of renewing my gold card season ticket (current one expires on Tuesday), just in case my local line gets no service for the reduced timetable period between strikes.
Got it from Waterloo to avoid the hassle of trying to predict when the ticket office at Andover will be open (to benefit from the £10 railcard)
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The other thing to remember is that there are some contingency signallers that have been working the full strikes, some workstations will have these, though how this will work with contingency signallers on one workstation and signallers in dispute on the other workstations I dread to think.
Media reports tonight that the unions have rejected an offer of 8% (4% this year and 4% next) plus no compulsory redundancies before 2024. So if not collapsed then certainly faltered, but given the rigidity of the RMT's position alongisde the DfT's intransigence, I'm not sure I believe there were ever any meaningful talks taking place in the first place... a negotiation needs compromise on both sides, and - from the sidelines - this dispute seems thus far to have had precious little of that.
At this point, I think probably reasonable to assume huge disruption for passengers; even if there is a last minute deal, I'd assume timetable changes would still be in place.
Football timings are predicated on what the broadcasters demand. The convenience of attending supporters doesn't really come into it. Matches have been held on days with engineering work countless times, this will be no different.
Football timings are predicated on what the broadcasters demand. The convenience of attending supporters doesn't really come into it. Matches have been held on days with engineering work countless times, this will be no different.
Not many championship matches and below are. Certainly not Wigan v Hull!
Leagues 1, 2 and non league all changed their kick off times this weekend to accommodate a potential England match at 3pm yesterday (which ended up being today)
Yes, but this still leaves the box staffed on the nightshift! Unless NR has re-allocated those rostered nightshift to the dayshift, to provide full panel coverage for the latter; But I'm not sure that, in the present climate, Signallers would co-operate in this......
The RMT has said nothing so far to its members about changing booked shifts on the base roster during the overtime ban. The company published FAQ (aimed at managers but circulated widely amongst the staff side) states that they expect signallers to be reallocated to work any panel or workstation they are competent for if necessary to cover shortages - so if you’re booked to be 06:00 - 14:00 on panel A you can be moved to 06:00 - 14:00 on panel B instead as long as you sign it - but also is silent about changing booked turns of duty.
The NRP requires any change of booked shift for relief signallers after the roster is published at 12:00 on a Thursday is to be by mutual agreement if the change is requested within 48 hours of the turn commencing (before the 48 hour deadline the change can be imposed unilaterally). It also requires that all spare turns, whether for residents or reliefs, have a published start and end time, and that any change to the published times also is by mutual agreement only. I know what my answer would be in the current climate if I was asked to change my shift within the 48 hour period…
The NRP is a well established national agreement negotiated through collective bargaining and cannot be simply ignored by the company just because there’s an industrial dispute.
I think the mistake being made in many quarters is that Government won’t be able to stomach the disruption caused, and will thus be forced to change tack. After nearly 6 months of strikes, Government knows very well what disruption is like, and knows exactly what is coming.
I suppose it depends whether their constituents are happy to take it, or whether such a dramatic and prolonged period of disruption would tip people over the edge.
Morale is really low across the board for many. One thing that hasn't helped has been the constantly changing government and ministers; the Secretary of State has been 3 people in about 3 months, which means they have to be constantly re-briefed, brought up to speed, have their own take on things and ask questions etc. etc.
The NRP requires any change of booked shift for relief signallers after the roster is published at 12:00 on a Thursday is to be by mutual agreement if the change is requested within 48 hours of the turn commencing (before the 48 hour deadline the change can be imposed unilaterally). It also requires that all spare turns, whether for residents or reliefs, have a published start and end time, and that any change to the published times also is by mutual agreement only. I know what my answer would be in the current climate if I was asked to change my shift within the 48 hour period…
The NRP is a well established national agreement negotiated through collective bargaining and cannot be simply ignored by the company just because there’s an industrial dispute.
As for booked shifts, my understanding is that developments are already well under way for contingency rosters for the 0600-1800 in advance - so we're talking two weeks if taken from this very point (was already in discussion last week) which is more than enough time to change booked shifts.
I think the mistake being made in many quarters is that Government won’t be able to stomach the disruption caused, and will thus be forced to change tack. After nearly 6 months of strikes, Government knows very well what disruption is like, and knows exactly what is coming.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
I suppose it depends whether their constituents are happy to take it, or whether such a dramatic and prolonged period of disruption would tip people over the edge.
Morale is really low across the board for many. One thing that hasn't helped has been the constantly changing government and ministers; the Secretary of State has been 3 people in about 3 months, which means they have to be constantly re-briefed, brought up to speed, have their own take on things and ask questions etc. etc.
We at the max two years away from a general election, the longer this dispute this goes on for, the more Labour will have to gain by promising they would end the dispute. While I know rail transport is not that a big an issue for most voters, for those who lives are significantly adversely impacted by this dispute, the dispute could sway their vote. So I think the closer we get to election, the more incentive their would be for the government to find a resolution.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
Agree, this would be the third Christmas in row for hospitality ruined by events outside their control, after the last two were ruined by Covid. Those that survive the dispute must be wondering what will come up in 2023 to ruin another Christmas.
The NRP requires any change of booked shift for relief signallers after the roster is published at 12:00 on a Thursday is to be by mutual agreement if the change is requested within 48 hours of the turn commencing (before the 48 hour deadline the change can be imposed unilaterally). It also requires that all spare turns, whether for residents or reliefs, have a published start and end time, and that any change to the published times also is by mutual agreement only. I know what my answer would be in the current climate if I was asked to change my shift within the 48 hour period…
The NRP is a well established national agreement negotiated through collective bargaining and cannot be simply ignored by the company just because there’s an industrial dispute.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
I think the government will see that view as an exaggeration.
For example, in central London, yes, some of the business will be lost from people who live further out but those who travel in by underground or bus will still be attending. There is nowhere where the ability of hospitality businesses to function is 100% dependant on the railway.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
Given that 0700-1800 will knacker most commuters anyway so they'll seek alternatives, I half wonder if 1200-end of service would be a better plan. That'd stop basically every work Christmas do getting cancelled.
We at the max two years away from a general election, the longer this dispute this goes on for, the more Labour will have to gain by promising they would end the dispute. While I know rail transport is not that a big an issue for most voters, for those who lives are significantly adversely impacted by this dispute, the dispute could sway their vote. So I think the closer we get to election, the more incentive their would be for the government to find a resolution.
Whilst I’d like to believe you, I think they’ll be more swayed by the state of the economy, healthcare or education - which are all in the same predicament so I suppose the end result is the same.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Given that 0700-1800 will knacker most commuters anyway so they'll seek alternatives, I half wonder if 1200-end of service would be a better plan. That'd stop basically every work Christmas do getting cancelled.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
The penny doesn't seem to have dropped amongst the wider public as to what this emergency timetable will entail. When it does, there will be a great deal of controversy.
As for booked shifts, my understanding is that developments are already well under way for contingency rosters for the 0600-1800 in advance - so we're talking two weeks if taken from this very point (was already in discussion last week) which is more than enough time to change booked shifts.
The NRP is also very clear that the company can’t change base rosters (i.e. the normal repeating cycle of booked shifts and rest days that signallers work every week) unilaterally without negotiation and agreement with the union at local and - if they fail to agree - regional level. I‘m sure they will try this but it will escalate the dispute dramatically. We’ll find out soon enough.
But the consequences of a skeleton service in the run-up to and beyond Christmas WILL finish off many hospitality businesses. If the government is prepared to accept this then it's even more crass than I thought it was.
Being brutally honest, I don’t think this government gives a stuff about hospitality businesses.
Any pretence at caring was simply during the Johnson / Sunak honeymoon period when one of them wanted to be Mr Popular (the public face, anyway), whilst the other was busily building up “Brand Rishi”.
I see only two things making a difference now. Firstly if Sunak actually thinks he has any chance of winning the next election. Or secondly if the likes of the 1922 Committee decide that things have gone too far in terms of the party’s long-term brand image. In the meantime, the kids have stormed the bridge, and the ship is going all over the place.
Whilst I'd tend to agree with you, one of the major issues with shortened signal box opening hours, is that should a box open at 07:00, trains wouldn't necessarily start running straight away, as it may be that the first of a convoy of trains can only leave the depot at 07:05. Trains would then have to travel empty to their origin stations before starting in passenger service.
In a similar situation to the morning following industrial action, should a station be at the end of the line or a distance from depot, it may be several hours after the initial 07:00 start time before some stations receive their first train.
A similar situation (but in reverse) occurs if all trains have to be at thier final stabling location by 19:00. With allowances for delays, etc. some stations see their last services really quite early.
From a passenger perspective, if what has been suggested happens, and unless you're flexible and only making short journeys, it's liable to become a bit of a challenge to use the railway.
Given that 0700-1800 will knacker most commuters anyway so they'll seek alternatives, I half wonder if 1200-end of service would be a better plan. That'd stop basically every work Christmas do getting cancelled.
The penny doesn't seem to have dropped amongst the wider public as to what this emergency timetable will entail. When it does, there will be a great deal of controversy.
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