LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[Fuzzytop]

91119 has been repainted into the original Intercity Swallow livery. It has been painted this time rather than vinyled like before.

Last I heard it was still TBC whether the application of grey and red would be paint, or vinyl on top of a new basecoat.

 

[Rhydgaled]

91119 has been repainted into the original Intercity Swallow livery. It has been painted this time rather than vinyled like before.

Wasn't it put into Swallow livery because it suffered major damage and had to be put through a major overhaul (including a repaint) when it otherwise wouldn't have been due one?

 

[43094]

Ish…. It did suffer significant damage, but then didn’t have a significant overhaul to accompany the repaint.

 

[DanNCL]

Wasn't it put into Swallow livery because it suffered major damage and had to be put through a major overhaul (including a repaint) when it otherwise wouldn't have been due one?

Ish…. It did suffer significant damage, but then didn’t have a significant overhaul to accompany the repaint.

The 2018 relivery was simply a vinyl wrap over East Coast grey, in the same fashion as the VTEC relivery was, wasn’t it?

I’m fairly sure, unless I’ve missed something, that the last proper repaints before the current round were in the early part of the last decade.

 

[43102EMR]

The 2018 relivery was simply a vinyl wrap over East Coast grey, in the same fashion as the VTEC relivery was, wasn’t it?

I’m fairly sure, unless I’ve missed something, that the last proper repaints before the current round were in the early part of the last decade.

Yes it was just a vinyl that was placed on it - always thought that was due to the anticipated Azuma introduction and nothing more.

 

[DanNCL]

91119 has a much more authentic version of Intercity Swallow than what it had previously. Painted rather than vinyled, the swallows on the side are metal as per when they were built rather than vinyl, and the swallow on the front has returned too.

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91114 has also emerged from Wabtec. As had been expected, standard new LNER livery with no special branding, but the nameplates have been retained.

 

[800001]

91119 has a much more authentic version of Intercity Swallow than what it had previously. Painted rather than vinyled, the swallows on the side are metal as per when they were built rather than vinyl, and the swallow on the front has returned too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2022 ==

91114 has also emerged from Wabtec. As had been expected, standard new LNER livery with no special branding, but the nameplates have been retained.

Video on LNER Facebook showing them putting the swallows on the loco.

 

[xotGD]

Authentic livery. Non-authentic number on 91019.

 

[XAM2175]

91119 has a much more authentic version of Intercity Swallow than what it had previously. Painted rather than vinyled, the swallows on the side are metal as per when they were built rather than vinyl, and the swallow on the front has returned too.

Ooh, that's a very nice touch.

Authentic livery. Non-authentic number on 91019.

Good. Painting fake numbers on for the sake of placating nostalgic rivet-counters is silly.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good. Painting fake numbers on for the sake of placating nostalgic rivet-counters is silly.

Agreed, and I seem to remember it caused major confusion when LNER did it for two HST PCs.

 

[FOH]

91119 has a much more authentic version of Intercity Swallow than what it had previously. Painted rather than vinyled, the swallows on the side are metal as per when they were built rather than vinyl, and the swallow on the front has returned too.

Now to put back the shiny metal around the MkIV window surrounds ...

 

[DanNCL]

With 91124 at Wabtec for repaint, 91107 is the last loco in the operational fleet to retain VTEC red. The livery does of course remain on the stored locos at Belmont.

 

[tubeuser]

Apologies if this question has been asked before. How many actual sets are left, that LNER could actually use in service (including spare coaches)

 

[Fuzzytop]

Apologies if this question has been asked before. How many actual sets are left, that LNER could actually use in service (including spare coaches)

There are 8 full-length sets left, all of which are on lease to LNER. One of these (NL16) was reactivated from storage about a year ago, but four of its coaches are from other sets.

The other surviving Mk4s are:

• 52 vehicles purchased by Transport for Wales to form 8 short sets (5 coaches + DVT). This includes an original batch of 15 that were previously leased before then being purchased outright along with 30 others (3 TODs to lengthen the original sets to five coaches, all 24 vehicles formerly leased to Grand Central, and 3 spares), and more recently 7 extra vehicles to make an eighth set.
  
  
• Four coaches (12202, 12480, 12486, 12305) and one DVT (82215) currently spare but in non-operational condition - they have been used as donors during the OH1 programme on the LNER sets.
  
  
• Two DVTs (82210 and 82218) still at Worksop. I believe they are being used as barrier vehicles. I think they are still owned by Eversholt, but if anyone knows any different that would be useful to know.
  
  
• Two vehicles (12230, 12468) at York ROC and three (12417, 12415, 12443) at the Fire Service College for training purposes.

None of these could be made up into an additional set for LNER. Over half of the Mk4 fleet has now been scrapped - Eversholt must have concluded that there was little chance of work for the remaining coaches.

 

[43096]

• Two DVTs (82210 and 82218) still at Worksop. I believe they are being used as barrier vehicles. I think they are still owned by Eversholt, but if anyone knows any different that would be useful to know.

Those two are owned by HNRC. They are used as coupling adapters at Worksop, the inner ends having Tightlock couplers that will couple to 321s and Networkers (among others), while the outer ends have normal buffers and draw hooks.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Those two are owned by HNRC. They are used as coupling adapters at Worksop, the inner ends having Tightlock couplers that will couple to 321s and Networkers (among others), while the outer ends have normal buffers and draw hooks.

I knew HNRC were using them, I didn't know they'd taken ownership. That's good to know, thank you for the heads up.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Those two are owned by HNRC. They are used as coupling adapters at Worksop, the inner ends having Tightlock couplers that will couple to 321s and Networkers (among others), while the outer ends have normal buffers and draw hooks.

Did they need modifying for that or were the mark 4 rakes built with internal couplings to the exact same specification as those EMU couplers (so TSOEs could be also used as barrier vehicles for EMU moves)?

 

[43096]

Did they need modifying for that or were the mark 4 rakes built with internal couplings to the exact same specification as those EMU couplers (so TSOEs could be also used as barrier vehicles for EMU moves)?

They’ve had Tightlock couplers within the Mark 4 sets from new. It’s only really coupler height that would be key - this is only for low speed moves within the Worksop site.

 

[E27007]

Rumours originating from York concerning the 91 fleet are budget cuts and the operator is seeking to drop the 91s in early 2023, my friends are taking the rumour seriously,extra effort to ride behind them this month.
i hope the rumour is not true.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Rumours originating from York concerning the 91 fleet are budget cuts and the operator is seeking to drop the 91s in early 2023, my friends are taking the rumour seriously,extra effort to ride behind them this month

With the 10% cut in budget for LNER this is a somewhat logical move to remove a small micro fleet.

 

[DanNCL]

Rumours originating from York concerning the 91 fleet are budget cuts and the operator is seeking to drop the 91s in early 2023, my friends are taking the rumour seriously,extra effort to ride behind them this month.
i hope the rumour is not true.

May 2023 is what I've heard and it's very much only rumours at this stage. Nothing confirmed.

If they are withdrawn, LNER can wave goodbye to their desired new EMUs. Something myself and others who are familiar with how the treasury is currently working have been trying to say won't happen for ages but nonetheless they've kept wasting time planning for them.

 

[800001]

With the 10% cut in budget for LNER this is a somewhat logical move to remove a small micro fleet.

Where has this 10% cut come from? Not seen anything announced?

 

[DanNCL]

Where has this 10% cut come from? Not seen anything announced?

It's been worked out on the basis of a 10% inflation rate and no increase in LNER's budget, so a real terms 10% cut rather than an actual 10% cut.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Where has this 10% cut come from? Not seen anything announced?

Autumn govt statement. Budgets will have to deal with inflation inside existing budget.

 

[DanNCL]

Autumn govt statement. Budgets will have to deal with inflation inside existing budget.

That's not the budget being cut, that's next year's budget being equivalent to a 10% cut in real terms based on inflation, but the actual sum of Sterling available to LNER won't change. Not the same as a 10% cut which would be 10% off the current budget.

 

[skyhigh]

It's been worked out on the basis of a 10% inflation rate and no increase in LNER's budget, so a real terms 10% cut rather than an actual 10% cut.

Autumn govt statement. Budgets will have to deal with inflation inside existing budget.

But is that a "all operators must cut costs by 10%" or "across operators costs must be cut by 10%"?

By which I mean it's possible that DfT decide to cut a London commuter TOC's budget by 15%, but only cut LNER by 5% as that's where the passenger numbers/potential revenue is at the moment.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Won't LNER be short of stock without a reduction of the timetable? or are we consigned to 5-car Leeds-Londons..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==

I also suspect @DanNCL is right since most things happen at timetable changes!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That's not the budget being cut, that's next year's budget being equivalent to a 10% cut in real terms based on inflation, but the actual sum of Sterling available to LNER won't change. Not the same as a 10% cut which would be 10% off the current budget.

Ok a cut in real terms but the end result is LNER will have to find around 10% savings.

@Goldfish62 has pointed out there’s more detail on the is Modern Railways

 

[DanNCL]

But is that a "all operators must cut costs by 10%" or "across operators costs must be cut by 10%"?

By which I mean it's possible that DfT decide to cut a London commuter TOC's budget by 15%, but only cut LNER by 5% as that's where the passenger numbers/potential revenue is at the moment.

The DFT will have the same budget as this year, but it'll be worth approximately 10% next year than it was this year because of inflation. The DFT will allocate their budget how they see fit.

Won't LNER be short of stock without a reduction of the timetable? or are we consigned to 5-car Leeds-Londons..

Not just Leeds that would be getting 5 cars!!

A lot of people, including some at LNER and the DFT, don't seem to realise just how essential the small Mark 4 fleet is in holding the fragile ECML service together.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But is that a "all operators must cut costs by 10%" or "across operators costs must be cut by 10%"?

By which I mean it's possible that DfT decide to cut a London commuter TOC's budget by 15%, but only cut LNER by 5% as that's where the passenger numbers/potential revenue is at the moment.

Each operator has seen a real terms cut due to inflation. This is equal across the board for each TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==

A lot of people, including some at LNER and the DFT, don't seem to realise just how essential the small Mark 4 fleet is in holding the fragile ECML service together.

That is the same at any TOC which has cut fleet size - it’s made a fragile service difficult to deliver on a day to day base. However it appears this time the DfT budget is finite