LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[gabrielhj07]

That rather depends if the costs saved from stock cuts are more than revenue lost as a result. There is going to have to be a look at off-peak and advance fares: I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2024 fares change is rather “interesting”.

I see that alright, but the passenger forced to stand from York - King’s Cross won’t be worrying about railway finances.

 

[TheBigD]

Diagrams, The Knowledge, Automated Announcements - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

2018 Diagrams 2019 Diagrams 2020 Diagrams 2021 Diagrams Knowledge Timetable Change Posters Timetable May 2019 to May 2020 LNER Automated Azuma Announcements We do not have access to announcements from older trains, nor At Station announcements. 2021 Diagrams are up to date in terms of what has...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

The above post has a link a zip file for recent rolling stock diagrams.

If you take a look at the week for 31/10/22 to 03/11/22 you can see that for the various LNER fleets the following...

91+mk4 = 5 diagrams

13 x 800/1 (9 car bimode) = 9 diagrams with a 10th as operational spare at Neville Hill 0515 to 2100

10 x 800/2 (5 car bimode) = 6 diagrams with a further 2 diagrams route learning all day

12 x 801/1 (5 car electric) = 7 diagrams with a further 2 as operational spare at Bounds Green 0625 to 1900, and 1 at Doncaster 0450 to 1935
(1 of those 7 diagrams sits at Neville Hill 0912 to 1815.

30 x 800/2 (9 car electric) = 22 diagrams with a further 1 as operational spare at Bounds Green, 1 operational spare at Craigentinny, 1 operational spare at Neville Hill, and 1 spare at Neville Hill



if LNER/DfT do decide to end the use of the 91's then I'd wager that the existing service can be adequately handled by tighter diagraming of the Azuma Fleet.

Should a new enhanced timetable be introduced at some point on the ECML then more stock would then be needed.

 

[DanNCL]

Diagrams, The Knowledge, Automated Announcements - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

2018 Diagrams 2019 Diagrams 2020 Diagrams 2021 Diagrams Knowledge Timetable Change Posters Timetable May 2019 to May 2020 LNER Automated Azuma Announcements We do not have access to announcements from older trains, nor At Station announcements. 2021 Diagrams are up to date in terms of what has...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

The above post has a link a zip file for recent rolling stock diagrams.

If you take a look at the week for 31/10/22 to 03/11/22 you can see that for the various LNER fleets the following...

91+mk4 = 5 diagrams

13 x 800/1 (9 car bimode) = 9 diagrams with a 10th as operational spare at Neville Hill 0515 to 2100

10 x 800/2 (5 car bimode) = 6 diagrams with a further 2 diagrams route learning all day

12 x 801/1 (5 car electric) = 7 diagrams with a further 2 as operational spare at Bounds Green 0625 to 1900, and 1 at Doncaster 0450 to 1935
(1 of those 7 diagrams sits at Neville Hill 0912 to 1815.

30 x 800/2 (9 car electric) = 22 diagrams with a further 1 as operational spare at Bounds Green, 1 operational spare at Craigentinny, 1 operational spare at Neville Hill, and 1 spare at Neville Hill



if LNER/DfT do decide to end the use of the 91's then I'd wager that the existing service can be adequately handled by tighter diagraming of the Azuma Fleet.

Should a new enhanced timetable be introduced at some point on the ECML then more stock would then be needed.

Only doable if all 10 car diagrams are split and ran as 5 car diagrams, as well as 5 of the existing 9 car diagrams (which wouldn’t necessarily have to be the same 5 that currently use Mark 4s)

80xs have considerably lower availability than the HSTs and full Mark 4 fleets had. For example, the full Mark 4 fleet used to have 26 sets diagrammed each day from a fleet of 30 and usually all of those diagrams ran as booked (albeit one or two with a 90 vice 91). The HSTs did even better, with 15 sets for 14 diagrams. In contrast it’s quite common for not all of the designated spare 80x units to actually be operational, and the 800/1s don’t always have the full 10 sets available for service either. And this is before any LNER units begin crack repairs, which’ll require even more slack in the 80x diagrams.

 

[TheBigD]

Only doable if all 10 car diagrams are split and ran as 5 car diagrams, as well as 5 of the existing 9 car diagrams (which wouldn’t necessarily have to be the same 5 that currently use Mark 4s)

80xs have considerably lower availability than the HSTs and full Mark 4 fleets had. For example, the full Mark 4 fleet used to have 26 sets diagrammed each day from a fleet of 30 and usually all of those diagrams ran as booked (albeit one or two with a 90 vice 91). The HSTs did even better, with 15 sets for 14 diagrams. In contrast it’s quite common for not all of the designated spare 80x units to actually be operational, and the 800/1s don’t always have the full 10 sets available for service either. And this is before any LNER units begin crack repairs, which’ll require even more slack in the 80x diagrams.

Diagramming the operational spare 5 x 9 cars (5 sets) is sufficient to cover the 91s, without even using the operational spare/route learning 5.5 x 5 cars. No need to split any 10 car diagrams. Yes the sets will have to go through Eastleigh at some point but that will only be 1 or 2 sets at a time.

And then there are the recent extensions to Harrogate and Lincoln which sees sets away from the main ECML for around 2hr20m a time, when they could be earning more revenue on the main ECML.

The reality is that there will have to be some tough decisions made as the money isnt there for everything, as much as that pisses people off, it where we are.

 

[DanNCL]

Diagramming the operational spare 5 x 9 cars (5 sets) is sufficient to cover the 91s, without even using the operational spare/route learning 5.5 x 5 cars. No need to split any 10 car diagrams. Yes the sets will have to go through Eastleigh at some point but that will only be 1 or 2 sets at a time.

And then there are the recent extensions to Harrogate and Lincoln which sees sets away from the main ECML for around 2hr20m a time, when they could be earning more revenue on the main ECML.

The reality is that there will have to be some tough decisions made as the money isnt there for everything, as much as that pisses people off, it where we are.

As I said in my post, it’s not uncommon for many of spare 80x units not to actually be available.

As for Lincoln, they’re actually well used, and they’re only single 5 car units anyway. Harrogate is the obvious one to axe, freeing up a 9 car 800.

 

[D7672]

Lner has passenger loadings increasing and won't be dropping the 91s yet

 

[Bald Rick]

Lner has passenger loadings increasing and won't be dropping the 91s yet

That‘s very optimistic. What’s your source?

 

[greyman42]

Many years ago I was a regular on the 0735 or 0800 from York to London. They were routinely full in both first and standard, often leading to standing on the 0735 after the Peterboro call. For a variety of reasons I have been able to catch the modern equivalents of these in recent weeks (0737 and 0802) and they have been less than half full.

Business travel is no where near pre-covid levels on LNER.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Business travel is no where near pre-covid levels on LNER.

Nevertheless, first class was rammed on a mid morning train to Leeds a few weeks ago.

 

[800001]

Lner has passenger loadings increasing and won't be dropping the 91s yet

Where’s your source for this? Off peak has reached on some days 110%! Peak is still struggling about 45-50%.

Also some one mentioned the units going through Eastleigh…..they’ve discovered it’s taking a lot longer to do each unit that they though initially, and also each unit will have to go through same process several years down the line.

 

[Mikey C]

As I said in my post, it’s not uncommon for many of spare 80x units not to actually be available.

As for Lincoln, they’re actually well used, and they’re only single 5 car units anyway. Harrogate is the obvious one to axe, freeing up a 9 car 800.

I was on a Harrogate service on Thursday, and it was a 5 car unit

 

[YorksLad12]

I was on a Harrogate service on Thursday, and it was a 5 car unit

I am moderately confident that when the Harrogate extensions were introduced they were 2x5-car, an 800 and 801 combination. The only sources I have for this are my eyes and my memory, neither of which should be relied upon in a court of law. Or when ordering the drinks at the bar.

 

[800001]

I am moderately confident that when the Harrogate extensions were introduced they were 2x5-car, an 800 and 801 combination. The only sources I have for this are my eyes and my memory, neither of which should be relied upon in a court of law. Or when ordering the drinks at the bar.

They did run hybrid 10-car sets for a short period on the Harrogate.

 

[adrock1976]

I am moderately confident that when the Harrogate extensions were introduced they were 2x5-car, an 800 and 801 combination. The only sources I have for this are my eyes and my memory, neither of which should be relied upon in a court of law. Or when ordering the drinks at the bar.

They did run hybrid 10-car sets for a short period on the Harrogate.

I am in favour of scrapping all of the recent extensions e.g. Harrogate, Huddersfield, Sunderland via Newcastle (not the shortest route, which is via Eaglescliffe) but retain the long standing ones that ran since the Mk IVs were introduced i.e. the odd workings to Skipton and Bradford Forster Square.

As per thread I started in the Speculative Discussion section two or three years ago, the Harrogate Loop is the easiest route on the east side of the Pennines to give the Merseyrail treatment. Leeds - Armley Junction to have its own dedicated track so as not to get in the way of the Bradford FS/Skipton/Ilkley trains, and also the reopening of Otley via Pool-in-Wharfedale and Harrogate - Ripon.

In other words, no London trains, no west side of Pennines trains, and no crazy routings of the former Sussex Scot to use the Harrogate Loop at all. Keep it simple similar to Merseyrail.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I am in favour of scrapping all of the recent extensions e.g. Harrogate, Huddersfield, Sunderland via Newcastle (not the shortest route, which is via Eaglescliffe) but retain the long standing ones that ran since the Mk IVs were introduced i.e. the odd workings to Skipton and Bradford Forster Square.

As per thread I started in the Speculative Discussion section two or three years ago, the Harrogate Loop is the easiest route on the east side of the Pennines to give the Merseyrail treatment. Leeds - Armley Junction to have its own dedicated track so as not to get in the way of the Bradford FS/Skipton/Ilkley trains, and also the reopening of Otley via Pool-in-Wharfedale and Harrogate - Ripon.

In other words, no London trains, no west side of Pennines trains, and no crazy routings of the former Sussex Scot to use the Harrogate Loop at all. Keep it simple similar to Merseyrail.

This sounds awfully like a downgrade in service.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am in favour of scrapping all of the recent extensions e.g. Harrogate, Huddersfield, Sunderland via Newcastle (not the shortest route, which is via Eaglescliffe) but retain the long standing ones that ran since the Mk IVs were introduced i.e. the odd workings to Skipton and Bradford Forster Square.

Huddersfield never started, and isn’t going to.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am in favour of scrapping all of the recent extensions e.g. Harrogate, Huddersfield, Sunderland via Newcastle (not the shortest route, which is via Eaglescliffe) but retain the long standing ones that ran since the Mk IVs were introduced i.e. the odd workings to Skipton and Bradford Forster Square.

I understood the Sunderland via Newcastle is on borrowed time, it was already going to be withdrawn when the revised timetable starts.

 

[800001]

I understood the Sunderland via Newcastle is on borrowed time, it was already going to be withdrawn when the revised timetable starts.

It was meant to of been removed when the rewrite of the ECML should have happened. As that got pulled it still survives, for how long, no idea.

 

[DanNCL]

I understood the Sunderland via Newcastle is on borrowed time, it was already going to be withdrawn when the revised timetable starts.

It was meant to of been removed when the rewrite of the ECML should have happened. As that got pulled it still survives, for how long, no idea.

The morning path on the Durham Coast would be better filled by an additional Metro service - the 05:39 path from Sunderland already aligns with an available path to Newcastle Airport on Nexus infrastructure. The evening LNER service has no benefit, with a Metro already running both ahead of it and behind it.

Axing Sunderland and the daytime Harrogates would allow much greater flexibility of the 800/1 fleet, which in turn would allow greater flexibility of the rest of LNER's fleet including the Mark 4 sets.

 

[E27007]

Only doable if all 10 car diagrams are split and ran as 5 car diagrams, as well as 5 of the existing 9 car diagrams (which wouldn’t necessarily have to be the same 5 that currently use Mark 4s)

80xs have considerably lower availability than the HSTs and full Mark 4 fleets had. For example, the full Mark 4 fleet used to have 26 sets diagrammed each day from a fleet of 30 and usually all of those diagrams ran as booked (albeit one or two with a 90 vice 91). The HSTs did even better, with 15 sets for 14 diagrams. In contrast it’s quite common for not all of the designated spare 80x units to actually be operational, and the 800/1s don’t always have the full 10 sets available for service either. And this is before any LNER units begin crack repairs, which’ll require even more slack in the 80x diagrams.

The splitting, (attaching / detaching ) of Azuma sets, I have never seen this take place, is it a depot level operation, or is it a platform operation for a driver? Push button coupling / uncoupling from an intermediate driving cab.

 

[Energy]

The splitting, (attaching / detaching ) of Azuma sets, I have never seen this take place, is it a depot level operation, or is it a platform operation for a driver? Push button coupling / uncoupling from an intermediate driving cab.

Here is a video of it happening.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The splitting, (attaching / detaching ) of Azuma sets, I have never seen this take place, is it a depot level operation, or is it a platform operation for a driver? Push button coupling / uncoupling from an intermediate driving cab.

If you could only do it in a depot, that would pretty much render the 5 car sets pointless

 

[IanXC]

Here is a video of it happening.

I think the question was LNER doing that. So yes the sets are capable of it, and GWR do it, but do/have LNER?

 

[43094]

It is done outside depots on LNER, though currently only at Kings Cross (attach and detach) or Doncaster (detach only) on a pre-planned basis (it can also be done at Leeds and Edinburgh, but there’s nothing diagrammed, so it’s ad-hoc only, there)

 

[YorksLad12]

I think the question was LNER doing that. So yes the sets are capable of it, and GWR do it, but do/have LNER?

I was on a 2x5 set, yonks ago, which split at Leeds with only the western half going on to Skipton.

 

[SteveyBee131]

I was on a 2x5 set, yonks ago, which split at Leeds with only the western half going on to Skipton.

Similarly, I boarded a pair at Leeds which coupled there after half had come from Harrogate. Again it was years ago, some point before the 'rona.

 

[yorksrob]

Does anyone know which are the mk4's from Kings Cross to Leeds tonight ?

Accordingb to the diagram the 20:35 should be, but board saying an Azuma !

 

[ST156]

Realtime Trains suggests 21:35 should be a Mk4 this evening, currently allocated as 91106.

20:35 is indeed an Azuma.

 

[yorksrob]

Realtime Trains suggests 21:35 should be a Mk4 this evening, currently allocated as 91106.

20:35 is indeed an Azuma.

Cheers for the info.

 

[trv100]

its quite a shame about the MkIVs, i think in their prime they were pretty much the face of the ECML, and now i think passengers see them as more of an inconvenience compared to IEPs. Northern aren't doing a good job of maintaining the sets and as a result the defect lists can be up to 3 pages long! number 19 had to be set swapped at kings cross on friday due to phantom TPWS activations after its 2nd(?) day back in service. On the other hand the new paint job and loco refurbs tell me theyre not going anywhere too quickly