Would Closed Rail Links In England Reopen?

[tbtc]

Noting that Scarborough station has a pre-Covid footfall of just under 1M compared to Whitby's 130k suggests strongly that West Yorks to Whitby needs a direct service

That’s the difference

To me, the fact that Scarborough gets six times the passengers of Whitby suggests that Scarborough is a bigger place with year round demand - there’s a lot more than just tourism - you’ve got the University of Coventry offshoot meaning Students during the winter months - you’ve got a team in the sixth tier of English football (national league north, the same level as various former/successor clubs to long established football league teams like Darlington/ Chester/ Boston/ Hereford) - you’ve a much larger population overall, as we as the fact that any rail link over the Moors will still mean that Scarborough is a faster/cheaper seaside trip for Leeds passengers than going further north to Whitby (also, Scarborough’s passengers include those for along the coast to Bridlington etc and onto the city of Hull - Whitby on the other hand is nowhere near anywhere of size so wouldn’t have much local traffic

Whitby is a great afternoon out but I’d struggle with a long weekend; other than the occasional Goth events it seems quite quiet most of the year

You, however, take Whitby’s low numbers as evidence that it therefore deserves through trains to Leeds

For NYMR, it is already 18 miles long, and responsible minds there would question whether the extra 7 miles could ever earn enough to cover its heritage operating, let alone its capital cost

True, for a lot of passengers it’s about a £50 family event broadly equivalent to the zoo or a reasonable level of football match (more expensive than the Cinema, cheaper than somewhere like Alton Towers, a treat for maybe once or twice a year), a leisure event to take up an afternoon, a chance for the kids to feel that they are on the Hogwarts Express (or Sodor, depending on age), it’s not about a destination or a real purpose, that £50 isn’t going to become £70 just because you’ve gone a bit further, average punters won’t care about that, in fact if you stretch the experience too far you run the risk of boring some people, making it an ordeal (“are we there yet” etc)

 

[WAO]

You, however, take Whitby’s low numbers as evidence that it therefore deserves through trains to Leeds

Not me, just Whitby's Local Council.

 

[mike57]

Some frankly have better track than NR branch lines and are passed for 60mph for non passenger traffic.

I dont think that Pickering - Whitby would ever get anywhere near 60mph, its not about track its about the route, which twists and turns. I am not sure what speeds were in BR days but just looking at the geography and assuming the current route is retained I cant see anything over 40mph being possible and maybe less in places for a lot of the route what ever you did.

I also think that the risks to the NYMR operation would be high if the route were to become an NR through route, to the point where I could see it folding or being massively cut back, and the impact on the surrounding area and business would be huge, A lot of those 300,000 NYMR visitors are probably day trippers or staying over in the area and spending money at other places.

I could see a situation where an NR extention to Whitby from Malton kills off one of the things it was designed to serve. People on a day out on the NYMR are not going to want to see/hear typical the current NR environment, modern signalling, incessant announcements along the lines of 'rain is wet' and 'see it say it sorted' etc. Grumpy gateline staff, national chain refreshments... It just will not work, there are too many mutually exclusive requirements.

 

[scarby]

I'm sure that the Pickering to Malton line would have a better chance of reopening than the Picton to Battersby line.

Why would it? Travellers to and from Pickering are already within short reach of Malton (feasible to do by taxi) with swift (in the unlikely event that the trains out of Malton are running properly) connections to the rest of the country.

Travel in and out of Whitby by public transport on the other hand is a nightmare. A journey to London, Manchester, or pretty much anywhere else you care to mention involves either the slow and infrequent Esk Valley route before even getting started, or a slow and uncomfortable bus journey to either Scarborough, York or Middlesbrough.

A Picton-Battersby link would open up for much quicker trains straight through from York to Whitby, by-passing Middlesbrough.

It's evident that the NYMR has no interest in the line becoming part of a commercial route, which is totally understandable after over 50 years of work with it as a preserved line. A short branch to Pickering does hold some interest though in terms of what it is - a very short branch with no major infrastructure, easy to connect to the national network - it is close to the ideal in that sense alone for a 'Very Light Rail' type project.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The last time anybody estimated it (which was a few years ago) they came up with £320million to reopen Beverley <> York. Let's assume that figure is both wildly optimistic and out of date and stick three times that (a billion) there instead.

Compare to handouts to TFL. We could have four similar reopenings.

Levelling up?

 

[Harvester]

A Picton-Battersby link would open up for much quicker trains straight through from York to Whitby, by-passing Middlesbrough.

A drawback to this would be pathing problems, arising on the Battersby-Whitby stretch. With only one passing loop left (at Glaisdale) and having to share the route with the Middlesbrough-Whitby trains a frequent service would be impossible. The NYMR would cause further pathing issues on the Grosmont-Whitby section.

 

[zwk500]

A drawback to this would be pathing problems, arising on the Battersby-Whitby stretch. With only one passing loop left (at Glaisdale) and having to share the route with the Middlesbrough-Whitby trains a frequent service would be impossible. The NYMR would cause further pathing issues on the Grosmont-Whitby section.

Especially if they don't sort out the token issue.

 

[30907]

A Picton-Battersby link would open up for much quicker trains straight through from York to Whitby, by-passing Middlesbrough.

Battersby to Northallerton is about 20 miles, so a new-build 60mph line might allow a 30min journey and cut travel time to York by a similar amount to (say) 2hr - ie about 20%.
The problem is - York to Scarborough is still an hour shorter, so your average day tripper from West Yorks will still go there because it's cheaper and quicker..

Alternatively you could build the Battersby curve for a fraction of the money ,and save maybe 10min while continuing to serve Middlesborough, and that would benefit everyone. (Reinstating Commondale Castleton Moor loop and adding the token point at Grosmont are needed either way).

Edit: loop in wrong place, oops!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Regarding Malton to Pickering I couldn't see it being operated by the heritage NYMR due to operating cost/mainline standards or to create a segregated line would be too complicated and expensive. I have a few ideas of how it could be done but you would end up creating an island platform for Malton.

Whilst you could I suppose create a parkway just off the A64 with a short line adjacent to the existing lines I do question the viability of it especially if it isn't connected into the rail network.

The only way I could see a short spur to somewhere South of Pickering being justified is if it is for a service to terminate other than York, but then Scarborough isn't much further. Although since NPR services which are basicallly existing TP services are to be 200m long and that Scarborough has only one platform capable of terminating 200m trains, then they may be a need for another terminus, possibly this may be why another two South facing terminus platforms have been identified as a requirement at York!

As for other lines the only lines I could see realistically reopening are probably Selby - Beverley and the line to Otley.

 

[zwk500]

The only way I could see a short spur to somewhere South of Pickering being justified is if it is for a service to terminate other than York, but then Scarborough isn't much further. Although since NPR services which are basicallly existing TP services are to be 200m long and that Scarborough has only one platform capable of terminating 200m trains, then they may be a need for another terminus, possibly this may be why another two South facing terminus platforms have been identified as a requirement at York!

If you were struggling for platform capacity at York, sending trains towards Malton is about the last thing you'd want to do because of the restrictive layout. You'd certainly not be building a new line to terminate other trains.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If you were struggling for platform capacity at York, sending trains towards Malton is about the last thing you'd want to do because of the restrictive layout. You'd certainly not be building a new line to terminate other trains.

Its not about York capacity the discussion is about Pickering to Malton!

Ideally Malton does want a second platform if a new line is built or not!

 

[zwk500]

Its not about York capacity the discussion is about Pickering to Malton!

You claimed the only justification for the line would be to relieve platform capacity at York:

The only way I could see a short spur to somewhere South of Pickering being justified is if it is for a service to terminate other than York

Ideally Malton does want a second platform if a new line is built or not!

I agree. It's a completely separate discussion from the reopening though. I also wasn't commenting about Malton, but about York. Trains to/from Scarborough are limited to platforms 2, 3, 4, and 5. Which means lots of crossing moves if you're trying to run trains from Leeds onto that line.

 

[billio]

The Coastliner bus runs hourly from more or less outside Malton station to Pickering. Unfortunately it is a bit of a hike from the bus stop in Pickering to the NYMR station. The Coastliner bus would waste quite a bit of time diverting from the current route to pass near the NYMR station, especially in the summer when traffic in Pickering is pretty solid. Surely it would be better to introduce a new bus service to run from one station to the other, departures from Malton linked to train arrivals, than consider re-opening the railway connection.

 

[Bald Rick]

The last time anybody estimated it (which was a few years ago) they came up with £320million to reopen Beverley <> York. Let's assume that figure is both wildly optimistic and out of date and stick three times that (a billion) there instead.

Compare to handouts to TFL. We could have four similar reopenings.

Levelling up?

I’m hoping this a joke.

Compare the number of people who use London’s public transport system every day, with that which would be delivered from 4 such reopenings in a whole year.

 

[D365]

I’m hoping this a joke.

Compare the number of people who use London’s public transport system every day, with that which would be delivered from 4 such reopenings in a whole year.

Within this subform, you can never tell...

 

[30907]

The Coastliner bus runs hourly from more or less outside Malton station to Pickering. Unfortunately it is a bit of a hike from the bus stop in Pickering to the NYMR station.

But a pleasant one, and convenient if you want food

The Coastliner bus would waste quite a bit of time diverting from the current route to pass near the NYMR station, especially in the summer when traffic in Pickering is pretty solid. Surely it would be better to introduce a new bus service to run from one station to the other, departures from Malton linked to train arrivals, than consider re-opening the railway connection.

The only point of that would be if people used it as part of a through route Malton-Pickering-NYMR-Whitby; I reckon people are more likely to stay on the Coastliner.

 

[LittleAH]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting a problem that should be solved before anything else.

Malton station only has a single platform, it would definitely benefit from a second platform to allow trains to pass.

A second platform is in the pipeline.

 

[Class08Shunter]

I think Pickering To Malton will reopen but not anytime soon. NYMR Infrastructure Manager said that Pickering To Malton is unlikely to reopen anytime soon. They haven't said that they definitely won't reopen Pickering To Malton.

 

[Harvester]

I think Pickering To Malton will reopen but not anytime soon. NYMR Infrastructure Manager said that Pickering To Malton is unlikely to reopen anytime soon. They haven't said that they definitely won't reopen Pickering To Malton.

What is your estimation of the likely cost, for Network Rail to reopen the route from Pickering station to Rillington Jct and Malton? You can take the NYMR out of the equation, as to them it’s completely unaffordable.

 

[Class08Shunter]

What is your estimation of the likely cost, for Network Rail to reopen the route from Pickering station to Rillington Jct and Malton? You can take the NYMR out of the equation, as to them it’s completely unaffordable.

£18M

 

[Bald Rick]

What is your estimation of the likely cost, for Network Rail to reopen the route from Pickering station to Rillington Jct and Malton? You can take the NYMR out of the equation, as to them it’s completely unaffordable.

£18M

You’ll be wanting an extra 0 on the end of that. It would cost £18m just to get planning consent to build it. Lots of property to knock down.

it’s not going to happen.

 

[Neptune]

£18M

Is that a figure plucked from thin air or can you provide your breakdown for how you get to that figure?

 

[mike57]

£18M

The Borders Railway cost £353m for 25 miles at 2012 prices, you can argue the detail but that has to give an order of magnitude, which for 7 miles would equate to ~£100M at 2012 prices, so adding a zero is probably not far from the truth. This assumes you dont try and link with the NYMR but stop to the south of Pickering to try and limit demolition. This is before you add in the need for rolling stock, staffing etc. I am not going to say never, because never is a long time, but not in any foreseeable future.

 

[zwk500]

Let's not go over the costs again, it was dealt with in post #90.

 

[WAO]

Returning to the main topic, my preference would be for re-establishing (better) links between middle sized settlements where the rails still exist, perhaps for freight, rather than expensive relaying in sparsely populated areas. The Beeching Report concentrated on major centres and routes but left smaller towns often worse off.

The argument against is that traffic is light but that is because the former links were broken and the local economy adjusted. I would include electrification under this heading, e.g the two local routes between Leeds and Sheffield as this would produce a new or re-established speedy and capacious railway serving the former mining large villages and towns, where work is scarce. That's what levelling up should mean.

WAO

 

[Halifaxlad]

Aside from Pickering...

Who thinks the Crigglestone/Horbury West curve should reopen ?

According to the lost railways of west yorkshire website it is only 1 mile 1187yds.

Horbury West Curve

www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Returning to the main topic, my preference would be for re-establishing (better) links between middle sized settlements where the rails still exist, perhaps for freight, rather than expensive relaying in sparsely populated areas. The Beeching Report concentrated on major centres and routes but left smaller towns often worse off.

The argument against is that traffic is light but that is because the former links were broken and the local economy adjusted. I would include electrification under this heading, e.g the two local routes between Leeds and Sheffield as this would produce a new or re-established speedy and capacious railway serving the former mining large villages and towns, where work is scarce. That's what levelling up should mean.

WAO

I agree that electrification of existing routes is also important, but the main topic was for the reopening of closed routes.

Aside from Pickering...

Who thinks the Crigglestone/Horbury West curve should reopen ?

According to the lost railways of west yorkshire website it is only 1 mile 1187yds.

Horbury West Curve

www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk

Not really, it doesn't help any journey significantly apart from Barnsley-Bradford. You can get to Huddersfield via Penistone, or Leeds via Wakefield already. What services would you be running over it?

 

[Halifaxlad]

I agree that electrification of existing routes is also important, but the main topic was for the reopening of closed routes.

Not really, it doesn't help any journey significantly apart from Barnsley-Bradford. You can get to Huddersfield via Penistone, or Leeds via Wakefield already. What services would you be running over it?

Mainly Bradford - Halifax - Mirfield - Barnsley - Sheffield

I did once think about Sheffield - Blackpool North.

Obviously POST TRU between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe!

 

[zwk500]

Mainly Bradford - Halifax - Mirfield - Barnsley - Sheffield

I did once think about Sheffield - Blackpool North.

Obviously POST TRU between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe!

For a lot less money you could tart up Wakefield Kirkgate to make the change less unappealing. Electrifying Bradford-Church Fenton via Wakefield and Castleford would help as well. In that part of the world raising frequencies on the existing routes is likely to have a bigger benefit than running as many possible origin/destination pairs as you can.

 

[Halifaxlad]

For Bradford my feeling is that it ought to have a direct service to Sheffield!

I do feel there should be more focus on improving links to Sheffield from than Bradford than this focus on a new line from Bradford to Leeds. I'm refering to the political situation surrounding NPR.

I do understand your point though and also would love to see the line via Kirkgate also electrified, certainly post TRU so there is an alternative electrified route to York!