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TFW December 2023 Timetable changes

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Esker-pades

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Somewhat amusingly it would appear that people have been so quick to criticise they haven't noticed some of the benefits to the timetable, some of which are new things that hadn't been previously announced, so allow me to go through every route and give a breakdown

Chester - Liverpool/Manchester
Liverpool services go back from 2 hourly to hourly (not seen since Covid), with most extended to/from Llandudno. The existing Wrexham services continue, but are increased to 4 cars.

Manchester services stay at hourly, but see increased capacity through longer trains, with all bar the last departure at night a minimum of 3 cars, and 5 cars in the peaks. Most services run to Bangor or Holyhead instead of Llandudno

All services worked by 197s

Chester - Shrewsbury
Broadly similar to now, though with a slight increase in the number of 4 car services. Morning services run through to Cardiff instead of Birmingham. There are a couple of gaps, but there are also references to a review taking place to fill these again.

All services worked by 197s bar the 3 daily Cardiff - Holyhead MKIVs.

Chester - Crewe
Frequency and times broadly the same as now, but capacity increased from 2 car 153 to 3 car 197.

North Wales Coast
Big increases in capacity here, with Manchester services diverted from Llandudno to Bangor, and Liverpool services extended to Llandudno in their place. Manchester - Bangor services are all 3 cars minimum, as are the Cardiff - Holyheads. There are also slightly more of the latter services, in place of some Birmingham - Holyhead.

All services worked by 197s bar the 3 daily Cardiff - Holyhead MKIVs.

Blaneau Ffestiniog
No major changes, other than 153s upgraded to 2 car 197s

Wrexham - Bidston
Service doubled to half hourly all day, with the extra service running semi - fast. Rolling stock unconfirmed, either 197 or 230.

Manchester - Cardiff/West Wales
No changes to frequency here but big improvements in capacity, with all services bar the last two at night from Manchester formed of alternating MKIVs and 5 car 197s. The 197s run through from Milford Haven, and return through to Fishguard Harbour (see below). MKIVs services are sped up slightly, presumably through running at MU speeds

Crewe - Shrewsbury local
Remains broadly the same as now, but upgraded from a single 153 to 2 car 197

Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth
Increase in frequency with services now running hourly all day. Most services run through to and from Birmingham, and every second splits at Machynlleth for Pwllheli as now. Splitting services run as 4 car 197s, purely Aberystwyth are 2 car 197s.

Cambrian Coast
Timetable broadly same as now. 2 car 158s replaced with 2 car 197s.

Shrewsbury - Birmingham International
Timetable broadly as now, but with some former Holyhead services running to/from Aberystwyth instead. Other than early morning and late at night all services are at least 4 car 197, with one 6 car in each peak.

Shrewsbury - Cardiff
Frequency same as now, but big increases in capacity. As mentioned above, nearly all Manchester services are 5 cars, either MKIVs or 197s. Additionally, all Cardiff - Holyhead services are at least 3 car 197, on top of the current 3 MKIV services per day.

Shrewsbury - Swansea via HOWL
Improved timetable introduced this month continues, but sees slight increase in capacity from 2024 with all solo 153s running as 2 car sets.

Cheltenham - Cardiff
Increase in frequency to hourly all day. Only runs East of Cardiff, no longer runs through to/from Maesteg. 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car 197.

Ebbw Vale - Newport/Cardiff
Frequency remains at hourly on both routes, but Newport services extended through to Ebbw Vale. Cardiff services extended to/from Maesteg in place of Cheltenham services. Cardiffs are all 3 car 197 bar 1 late night service, Newport 2 car 197

Cardiff - Swansea
Slight increase in frequency, with Swanline local services now running hourly all day, with 2 car 153 (replaced by 197 in 2024). Swanline services now stop all stops between Cardiff and Bridgend. Hourly TFW semi fast alternates between 5 car 197 on through services to/from Manchester (to Fishguard, from Milford Haven) and 2 car 197 on services terminating Cardiff. 1 service each way per day MKIVs (as per current timetable but not yet in service).

Maesteg branch
Frequency remains hourly, but as mentioned above services now run to/from Ebbw Vale. All are at least 3 cars, with a 4 car every 4 hours.

Swansea - West Wales
Some big pleasant surprises here. Swansea - Pembroke and Milford Haven both remain 2 car as now, with Milford services running east to Manchester and west from Cardiff as 2 car 197s. Pembroke services remain as 153s for now, but due to go to 197s in 2024.
Fishguard gains a 2 hourly all day service, formed of 2 car 197s, running West from Manchester and East to Cardiff. Extra capacity east of Carmarthen is provided by GWR extending their London - Swansea services to Carmarthen every 2nd hour all day.

I think that's everything, but I might have missed some of the details here and there. All told it's a big improvement over the tired ex Arriva timetable and fleet, both of which needed replacing years ago. There's also promises of further improvements to come when the entire Stadler and 197 fleets are in service in 2024. Exciting times!
Only thing I would add is the clockface nature; quite a bit of effort went into getting everything bang on at the major stations, rather than the current variations of 5-10 minutes one gets now.

I'm sure I'll now get bombarded with every example of non-clockface running.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Only thing I would add is the clockface nature; quite a bit of effort went into getting everything bang on at the major stations, rather than the current variations of 5-10 minutes one gets now.

I'm sure I'll now get bombarded with every example of non-clockface running.

It's very much not clockface. It's a messy hotch potch. Indeed, not being proper clockface was one of the first things I noticed. Some is, but not even nearly enough.

As soon as one train is off pattern (give or take very early/very late in the day when you'd check anyway) the whole effect is ruined.
 

Esker-pades

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It's very much not clockface. It's a messy hotch potch. Indeed, not being proper clockface was one of the first things I noticed. Some is, but not even nearly enough.

As soon as one train is off pattern (give or take very early/very late in the day when you'd check anyway) the whole effect is ruined.
A "messy hotch potch" is a completely unfair characterisation. Especially when there are notes saying "we know there's this 'fault'; we're looking at fixing it". Especially when it is noted Dec '23 is not the final offering.
The proposed is a repeatable hourly or 2 hourly pattern, save for Heart of Wales. The weird services like Holyhead to Maesteg are all removed. Stopping patterns are standardised. Swanline is separated and becomes bang on hourly. Etc. Etc.

But, I'm sure spending an hour with a public draft is the same as writing the development timetable, so carry on.....
 

craigybagel

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I wonder where the 231s come in then. On Rhymneys until 2024? Are the 756s that delayed?
That's a very good question, I was quite surprised myself. It does seem strange given the first 756 has already been built and a lot of the valleys crews will have already been trained on Stadlers by the time they arrive. Unless they're hoping to run the 231s on other Valleys services first to get all the 150s out sooner?
Only thing I would add is the clockface nature; quite a bit of effort went into getting everything bang on at the major stations, rather than the current variations of 5-10 minutes one gets now.
Ah yes, that's a very good spot and yes, whilst not perfect they've definitely made some vast improvements there.
 

306024

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Interesting to see this amount of detail so far ahead, so of course there will be some things incomplete. Look at it more as a discussion document rather than a detailed operational timetable. No use waiting to consult on a fully resourced and detailed timetable when there is then insufficient time to then change anything. But at least having a draft resource plan will show where any capacity exists to make changes.

Hopefully NR will be able to improve any clock face irregularities, but I’m not sure how much they value the concept, looking at some of their timetable flexing that occurs elsewhere.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Chirk, Ruabon and Gobowen seem to be the losers as they go from primarily 4 carriage services to 2.
 

HamworthyGoods

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You say that, but the 756s are bi-mode and so are 769s. They can run on diesel in the interim.

TfW 769s are only single mode - diesel. They’ve had the pantographs and 3rd rail equipment removed to save maintenance/money.
 

Jez

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Good to see Swanline getting the hourly service it deserves.

Its a shame we are currently stuck with the Swanline stops being picked up by the Manchester's every 2 hours until at least May 2023. How busy these trains are getting is ridiculous at the moment!

Looking at the draft timetable im guessing all the 175s (along with 170s and 769) will be gone by December 2023?
 

anthony263

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Good to see Swanline getting the hourly service it deserves.

Its a shame we are currently stuck with the Swanline stops being picked up by the Manchester's every 2 hours until at least May 2023. How busy these trains are getting is ridiculous at the moment!
I wonder how the 153s going to cope with timings.

Swanline also picking up extra calls between Bridgend and Cardiff so pontyclun etc get a half hourly service. However I've noticed the lack of evening service westbound from Cardiff on Swanline stations.

Maesteg get better timetable plus earlier service to Cardiff as well as a later service to Maesteg. 2341 from Bridgend to Maesteg will be well used
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Looking at the draft timetable im guessing all the 175s (along with 170s and 769) will be gone by December 2023?
I reckon a fair bit before. Today there's already several 197s running between Manchester and Llandudno, alongside the Liverpool Chester unit and then of course they typically work Conwy Valley also. The introduction seems set to be ramped up fast for 175 routes.
 

Jez

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I wonder how the 153s going to cope with timings.

Swanline also picking up extra calls between Bridgend and Cardiff so pontyclun etc get a half hourly service. However I've noticed the lack of evening service westbound from Cardiff on Swanline stations.

Maesteg get better timetable plus earlier service to Cardiff as well as a later service to Maesteg. 2341 from Bridgend to Maesteg will be well used
The good thing is the Swanline appears to leave Swansea about 5 minutes after the GWR has left so at least it has a clear run from Swansea in order to call at all those stations. When it ran about 15 minutes ahead of the GWR by the time it got to Bridgend it was only a few minutes behind it often. Having the service hourly will also make it far easier to plan days out etc.

I reckon a fair bit before. Today there's already several 197s running between Manchester and Llandudno, alongside the Liverpool Chester unit and then of course they typically work Conwy Valley also. The introduction seems set to be ramped up fast for 175 routes.
Yes thats true. Once Cardiff and Carmarthen depots are trained, I cant see it being long before all 175s are replaced. Sad to see them go but time to move on.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Seeing those timetables and all the single units I am confident they haven't. Does anyone ever learn?
TfW (the WG body) has similar financial problems to the DfT TOCs.
Yesterday Mark Drakeford refused to consider an improved pay offer to nurses, saying it would take money from the patient side of the NHS.
I know the 197 order was placed in different times (by the Keolis operator), but even Welsh money doesn't grow on trees.
If there's a real capacity problem, TfW can always retain some 158s/175s.

I hardly think 2-car on the Liverpool services poses a capacity problem - I've yet to see a decent load.
When extended to Llandudno/Shrewsbury they will largely be extras to the current timetable.
 

Jez

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No westbound swanline after 2050 though
Im surprised at that. Currently we have the 1904 departure from Cardiff which makes Swanline stops then a massive gap until the late train from Cardiff around 2315. So a service until 2050 is an improvement but id still expect Swanline stops on one of the later long distance trains if there wasnt a local stopper.
 

Llanigraham

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I’m not convinced on the idea of running the additional Aberystwyth services as a portion of the Birmingham International to Holyhead services. I think it would have been better if they instead ran to Crewe, essentially being an extension of the two-hourly Crewe to Shrewsbury stopper.

Edit: I suppose this is to make the best use of ETCS-fitted 197s, where the ETCS essential Aberystwyth/Pwhelli to Birmingham International services interwork with the Holyhead to Birmingham International services.
Err, why?
I wonder how many times we locals have stated that we don't want to go to Crewe, we want and DO go to Birmingham.
 

cle

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Give it chance. I reckon (promoted right) you'll see 6 car sets full and standing on summer Saturdays. Llandudno is a massive daytrip destination from Liverpool.
Most anecdotes on here have had the services full and standing - and those have been more for Helsby/Frodsham to Liverpool flows. Adding more utility (North Wales or Borders/Cardiff) - will see them much busier.

But portion working will always ensure 4 cars minimum between Chester and Liverpool. Ideally it could be 2tph in time on that stretch.
 

Llandudno

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Give it chance. I reckon (promoted right) you'll see 6 car sets full and standing on summer Saturdays. Llandudno is a massive daytrip destination from Liverpool.
The bigger issue is the caravan crowd from Abergele/Rhyl/Prestatyn with all their suitcases, pushchairs, buckets and spades, bags of food and drink etc…
 

Bletchleyite

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The bigger issue is the caravan crowd from Abergele/Rhyl/Prestatyn with all their suitcases, pushchairs, buckets and spades, bags of food and drink etc…

Certainly the presence of ONE luggage rack in the entire unit (two in a 3 car maybe?) is a mistake. The overheads on CAF units are huge and these are no exception, but I bet this crowd (not ones for behaving considerately) will just leave it littering the seats, or worse piled in the wheelchair area.

There should be a large rack in every middle section. Another thing that would be better than that stupid galley thing.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Most anecdotes on here have had the services full and standing - and those have been more for Helsby/Frodsham to Liverpool flows. Adding more utility (North Wales or Borders/Cardiff) - will see them much busier.
But portion working will always ensure 4 cars minimum between Chester and Liverpool. Ideally it could be 2tph in time on that stretch.
I think there's wishful thinking here.
If you study the passenger statistics for North Wales and around Chester, you will find they have been edging downwards for a number of years (before Covid).
Yes people want more connectivity but they are not going to come out of the woodwork.
4-car to Liverpool and towards Shrewsbury is beyond my imagination, and 2tph is not going to happen (DfT will only allow 1tph to Liverpool).
Numbers at Chester and Shrewsbury have been increasing (helped by plenty of interchanges there).
The new through services should see a reduction of interchanges.
 

DaveHarries

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Interesting that the Cardiff Valley routes (Rhymney, Merthyr, Treherbert & Aberdare) are not included in these draft TTs but perhaps they can't be sure enough to begin planning for those.

Dave
 

Bletchleyite

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And yet when TfW try and turn things around they get slated here for it.....

They seem to be turning some of it round. They also seem to be making years-old mistakes that have been made by lots of other TOCs who have done fleet replacements and found the number of units they could afford to be inadequate, and ended up with some random old tat as well rather than a better designed mixed old and new fleet (see also LNR 319s, EMR 180s).
 

Starmill

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Certainly the presence of ONE luggage rack in the entire unit (two in a 3 car maybe?) is a mistake. The overheads on CAF units are huge and these are no exception, but I bet this crowd (not ones for behaving considerately) will just leave it littering the seats, or worse piled in the wheelchair area.

There should be a large rack in every middle section. Another thing that would be better than that stupid galley thing.
The reality of the situation is that two car 197s with four on the peak Wrexham services to Liverpool Lime Street will not suffer any overcrowding at all for 40 - 45 weeks of the year. Between Chester and Llandudno Junction this timetable will offer vast over-capacity on most services too.

During the school holidays, Easter weekend and so on, you may find a small number of overcrowded trains. But that's 100% the same situation as this year, and as 2019. Is it really sensible to imagine that the modern railway can respond to these kinds of demand changes anywhere without huge inefficiency?

It's not as if the existing option of using Merseyrail and then one of the many other trains to the Coast is going away is it. The new service is also not even substantially faster either, it's just much more convenient (of course, it is faster from the intermediate stations).

Fishguard gaining a two-hourly service is big news.
 
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