West Coast weather warning to and from Scotland for Friday 30/12/2022

[Watershed]

Is anyone able to confirm.

Does issuing a “do not travel” notice absolve TOC’s of their responsibility to provide (at their expense) meals, hotel accommodation (where possible) and alternative means of transport under regulation 1371/2007, and as outline in the NRCOT?

Heard mixed views so would be helpful to know the official stance.

No, it doesn't. This is commonly claimed by poorly trained customer service staff at TOCs (particularly on social media teams), but repeating a myth doesn't make it true!

It's frankly not much better than suggesting that you can declare yourself a freeman of the land and be exempt from all debts, taxes and laws...

Twitter doesn’t look good.

Avanti basically telling people there’s nothing they can do. Trains will not run, Ticket Acceptance won’t be arranged, alternatives won’t be provided, tickets won’t be valid on 2nd January.

Theoretically, are we looking at a breach of contract law here? Appreciate the line closing and buses not running is outwith their control, but refusing any provisions whatsoever and suggesting nothing but a refund (it certainly isn’t the case that hotels “aren’t available”, plenty going in Glasgow and Carlisle from my search!) seems like negligence on their responsibility, especially when people who are stranded also tried to travel yesterday.

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

It's clearly a breach of contract, not that Avanti will be bothered. Anything they're ordered to pay out to the tiny number of passengers who do pursue a Court claim will be reimbursed by the DfT.

Regulation 1371/2007 as transposed from the EU legislation has never applied where external events are the cause - e.g. weather. None of the European railways or their Governments were willing to accept that sort of liability.

I'm afraid this is simply not true on any level, nor is it even true for EU261 with the airlines. In the rail sector, the right to compensation applies regardless of the reason for a delay - see this press release by CER (an association of various European rail operators) complaining about the judgment of the European Court of Justice in case C‑509/11, regarding delay compensation in 'force majeure' circumstances. The right to care and assistance applies regardless of circumstances, across both rail and air sectors.

Of course, countries still have the option to exempt domestic services from 1371/2007, and many countries have chosen to maintain such an exemption. But, in its infinite wisdom, DfT decided that this was no longer necessary and hence 1371/2007 started applying to domestic services here at the end of 2019.

The NRCoT is actually more generous in that respect with regards to stranded passengers and delay repay - but realistically there are limits as to how it can be observed during extreme weather. Ministers were quite happy to be seen to be cracking the whip on Evil Private Sector Operators when the political wind suited, but once Government ended up paying the bills themselves it's remarkable how they have started to recognise the - ahem - 'limits' to liability.

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are limits on what can be done, and it's certainly possible that there was no realistic way of providing alternative transport the same day to some of the people who were left stranded. That does not, however, excuse refusing to book hotel rooms - which were evidently still available as people were reporting having to book them themselves.

There is a huge contrast to be drawn with how SWR has handled serious disruption earlier this year - stating that they would reimburse reasonable claims. Whilst that is already the legal position and they should be helping customers as far as possible, making the statement gives people reassurance that they will get their expenses back.

 

[Peter0124]

Now closed till 7th January

If the wcml is really closed for a week then I suppose the strikes were timed well.

 

[JamieL]

Quite a good picture of the damage near Carstairs on the BBC News website.

Can see why it might take a few days to repair that!

 

[randyrippley]

Travelling along the WCML, especially in Cumbria and the Southern Uplands, I'm often struck by the lack of trees on the surrounding hills. What were once native oak forests are now bare pastures for sheep-grazing. Heavy rainfall runs immediately into steams which soon become raging torrents. If only these areas could be rewilded with woodland which would absorb rainfall and act as a sponge to hold-back the floodwaters. I can't see it happening in my lifetime, but why I wonder are the livelihoods of a few sheep-farmers deemed to be sacrosanct? After all, when you go in the local supermarket you often find the lamb's from New Zealand!

You've got that very confused.
The sheep levels in Cumbria have never recovered from the foot and mouth culls and as a result many of the fells are naturally returning to upland scrubland, which will ultimately develop into birch and rowan woodland. This is very noticeable on the WCML through the Lune Gorge, viewing the Howgills
Any oak forests would have been cleared hundreds, if not thousands of years ago at the same time the stone walls were built
Any felling you have seen is due to a campaign to eradicate alien conifers and replace them with more ecofriendly native species



And FWIW my local farming friends tell me most UK hill-sheep meet goes into the higher-paying halal market, much of it in France. You won't see it in UK supermarkets


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2022 ==




Talking of RRB's, yesterday six of KT's coaches, regularly used by Northern, were parked up at White Lund in Morecambe. Someone probably wasn't looking very hard...

 

[Llanigraham]

Talking of RRB's, yesterday six of KT's coaches, regularly used by Northern, were parked up at White Lund in Morecambe. Someone probably wasn't looking very hard...

Doesn't mean there were any drivers available.

 

[The Prisoner]

Now picked up by the Daily Record

Spoiler: Scots heading home on Hogmanay 'abandoned' as train firm cancels services

Scots heading home on Hogmanay 'abandoned' as train firm cancels services

Avanti West Coast announced on Saturday morning that it had cancelled services north of Carlisle due to a landslip at Carstairs.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[yorkie]

I am currently on 1E10 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C11849/2022-12-30/detailed

At Edinburgh I heard an announcement about Avanti passengers being allowed to use LNER, but I didn't pay attention to it as my ticket is an advance for this train.

At Newcastle at 1135, the new TM said that we were full due to carrying additional passengers from Avanti and XC. He then suggested that anyone without a seat reservation and not sitting in the unreserved coaches, should get off and wait for a relief train 1Z11 leaving Newcastle at 1200, which would be empty and would arrive in London only 10 minutes later. It looks like anyone who followed this advice would have been waiting at Newcastle until 1435 unless their ticket allowed use of Lumo, or XC / TP and they had the idea to get as far south as possible.

At Darlington the TM announced that all standing passengers must get off, and also that every seat was reserved and anyone sitting (except in the unreserved coaches) without a seat reservation must get off. At that time 1Z11 was still planned to arrive 10 minutes later. He then repeated this and stated he would not let the train depart with any standing pasengers. A number of people sitting in my coach but not with their own reserved seat (because the reservation holder did not sit there) got off the train. It looks like they may still be waiting for the next southbound service 2.5 hours later.

LNER seem to take the view that if there is an unusually large flow of LNER passengers, then so be it, people will simply pack the train out (and if LNER passengers are unable to board, so be it).

However if there are passengers from other companies, then LNER's view is often that shouldn't be on the train.

LNER's attitude stinks and is not acceptable, but sadly there is no decent regulator, ombudsman or watchdog who can do anything about this poor behaviour.

 

[exbrel]

The TOC will have a contract with a company that organises replacement transport. In the case of Avanti with First Travel Solutions (https://www.firsttravelsolutions.com/rail-transport-solutions). Other TOCs use Arriva (https://www.arrivarts.com/pre-planned-emergency-rail-replacement/). So the TOC would contact their supplier, then the latter would do the ringing round in line with a service level agreement that will be in place.

I was once in a situation with a (not Avanti) TOC a few years ago where we had a stranded passenger in the middle of a very bad storm that did a lot of damage, conventional methods had failed to get a taxi so the TOC control asked me to ring round the local taxi firms to see if one would agree to do the job. After a few refusals, thankfully one agreed. Obviously with one single passenger in one location that sort of thing can be done but not at a larger scale.

a good example of customer service from back in the day, when customers were important, and all for 1 person,

 

[Carlisle]

LNER seem to take the view that if there is an unusually large flow of LNER passengers, then so be it, people will simply pack the train out (and if LNER passengers are unable to board, so be it).

However if there are passengers from other companies, then LNER's view is often that shouldn't be on the train.

LNER's attitude stinks and is not acceptable, but sadly there is no decent regulator, ombudsman or watchdog who can do anything about this poor behaviour.

Accusations of that nature go way back at least to GNER days .

 

[gazzaa2]

I think Avanti have given up. They know they're about to lose the WCML contract and are just cashing in what they can off customers in the meantime, rather than providing customer service.

 

[Darandio]

I think Avanti have given up. They know they're about to lose the WCML contract and are just cashing in what they can off customers in the meantime, rather than providing customer service.

What are they cashing in?

 

[gazzaa2]

What are they cashing in?

Charging more for advance tickets with late releases, forcing customers to pay again due to restricted rules on when they can travel when the service they were due to use isn't running and things go wrong.

 

[Watershed]

Charging more for advance tickets with late releases, forcing customers to pay again due to restricted rules on when they can travel when the service they were due to use isn't running and things go wrong.

Avanti don't keep any of the revenue, so they have very little incentive to act in this way.

 

[JModulo]

Looking likely to be Friday 6th Jan at the earliest before the line is reopened.

 

[standish1]

Looking likely to be Friday 6th Jan at the earliest before the line is reopened.

Confirmed by Network Rail.

 

[55002]

Where’s all the freight going this week? ECML?

 

[Oxfordblues]

Where’s all the freight going this week? ECML?

There are already a few STP and VSTP diversions via the G&SW on RTT.

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER seem to take the view that if there is an unusually large flow of LNER passengers, then so be it, people will simply pack the train out (and if LNER passengers are unable to board, so be it).

However if there are passengers from other companies, then LNER's view is often that shouldn't be on the train.

LNER's attitude stinks and is not acceptable, but sadly there is no decent regulator, ombudsman or watchdog who can do anything about this poor behaviour.

Strange that I've seen so many ticket acceptance emails recently then.

 

[800001]

Strange that I've seen so many ticket acceptance emails recently then.

Agreed!! Every single day i would say for the last couple of weeks LNER in some shape of form have acceptance with other TOcs, wether that’s Avanti, TPE, XC, Hull, Lumo and Grand Central.

 

[Bill57p9]

There are already a few STP and VSTP diversions via the G&SW on RTT.

No sign of any passenger relief workings via G&SW: only the 2 scheduled ScotRail services each way 2 Jan.
TPE still showing as running as far as Lockerbie. Let's see if they do (& NR open the line as far as Beatock for reversal)


Noted that Caledonian Sleeper have loaded ECML diversions to cover, so top marks to them for showing resilience.

 

[Some guy]

Trains from Euston terminating at Preston.

Reduced service North of Preston.

Sounds like a normal service for Avanti West Coast.

It’s also due to Euston and Wolves staff to which they can’t go anywhere north of Preston so in disruption that’s the most northern turnaround station for them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

Revised two hourly Carlisle - Euston services are unbelievably maintaining their stopping patterns leaving Oxenholme and Penrith without a service south of Preston for four hour gaps. Passengers being advised to travel north to Carlisle and change there to go south.

Just when you think they can’t get any worse. Unusable in any form.

It’s all down to pathing reasons it’s an absolute joke they should set up a timetable to allow trains to stop at both stations in times of disruption . It only adds on 3 minutes maximum

 

[yorkie]

Strange that I've seen so many ticket acceptance emails recently then.

Agreed!! Every single day i would say for the last couple of weeks LNER in some shape of form have acceptance with other TOcs, wether that’s Avanti, TPE, XC, Hull, Lumo and Grand Central.

There have been many reports of acceptance not being in place. If LNER are so good at accepting tickets, how could this be?

 

[Wallsendmag]

There have been many reports of acceptance not being in place. If LNER are so good at accepting tickets, how could this be?

Just saying what I see , day after day after day.

 

[yorkie]

Just saying what I see , day after day after day.

And I am just saying what I see too.

 

[GordonT]

It’s all down to pathing reasons it’s an absolute joke they should set up a timetable to allow trains to stop at both stations in times of disruption . It only adds on 3 minutes maximum

In a sane world that would be the automatic default position whenever this type of disruption hits. At times it's as if the railways have evolved almost a theology whose strict adherence trumps common sense and customer care.

 

[Howardh]

If you have an Avanti ticket, and their train doesn't run, and you chose to use LNER and pay more, (a) you get the money back off Avanti - eventually I suppose, but (b) can you charge them for the excess you had to pay for the LNER trip (ie if Avanti was £40, LNER £60, Avanti shoudl make up the £20 difference)?

And if not, why not? After all, in thoery if Avanti cancel a train and there's no later alternative, wouldn't they pay your taxi/hotel bill? Or is the get-out clause "an act of XYZ that caused the landslip, nothing we could do guv, you're on your own"?

Sorry to sound confused, but as a poor old passenger I find it all a bit bewildering.

Also wonder if there have been any successful claims on holiday/travel insurance?

 

[yorkie]

If you have an Avanti ticket, and their train doesn't run, and you chose to use LNER and pay more, (a) you get the money back off Avanti - eventually I suppose, but (b) can you charge them for the excess you had to pay for the LNER trip (ie if Avanti was £40, LNER £60, Avanti shoudl make up the £20 difference)?

It depends on the exact circumstances. If the delay is going to be one our or more you are entitled to be re-routed. If you would otherwise be stranded, any company in a position to help must do so (and cannot charge the customer).

If the customer simply chooses off their own bat to take another operators trains, when they would not be stranded and the operator has not been given any chance to arrange a replacement, then the customer would be able to obtain a full refund of the original ticket but would not necessarily be able to claim anything back for the replacement ticket.

If in this situation I would seek advice first; I would create a thread here and detail exactly what your journey is, what the situation is, what you've been advised so far, and what ticket(s) are held. I would also ask the relevant companies through whatever means are practicable (this may include staff at the station and/or asking on Twitter).

The exact advice given would depend on the unique circumstances so it is not possible to give an answer that covers all scenarios.

 

[Howardh]

It depends on the exact circumstances. If the delay is going to be one our or more you are entitled to be re-routed. If you would otherwise be stranded, any company in a position to help must do so (and cannot charge the customer).

If the customer simply chooses off their own bat to take another operators trains, when they would not be stranded and the operator has not been given any chance to arrange a replacement, then the customer would be able to obtain a full refund of the original ticket but would not necessarily be able to claim anything back for the replacement ticket.

If in this situation I would seek advice first; I would create a thread here and detail exactly what your journey is, what the situation is, what you've been advised so far, and what ticket(s) are held. I would also ask the relevant companies through whatever means are practicable (this may include staff at the station and/or asking on Twitter).

The exact advice given would depend on the unique circumstances so it is not possible to give an answer that covers all scenarios.

How do Avanti get that message across? At the station, twitter etc? And have they been doing so?

 

[Soundwave]

There have been many reports of acceptance not being in place. If LNER are so good at accepting tickets, how could this be?

Because on certain days they won't be able cope with their own customers plus Avanti + whatever else the ECML throws at them. It's not rocket science.

 

[yorkie]

Because on certain days they won't be able cope with their own customers plus Avanti + whatever else the ECML throws at them. It's not rocket science.

I refer you to my previous post; it is indeed not rocket science.

LNER seem to take the view that if there is an unusually large flow of LNER passengers, then so be it, people will simply pack the train out (and if LNER passengers are unable to board, so be it).

However if there are passengers from other companies, then LNER's view is often that shouldn't be on the train.

LNER's attitude stinks and is not acceptable, but sadly there is no decent regulator, ombudsman or watchdog who can do anything about this poor behaviour.

I, and other people I know, have observed LNER refuse to convey passengers when there was not only standing room available but seats going spare. LNER were happy to convey the passengers, providing they bought a ticket! That isn't acceptable behaviour from LNER.

If LNER only refused acceptance when trains were so full it would not be possible to board, that would be a completely different matter.