West Coast weather warning to and from Scotland for Friday 30/12/2022

[Watershed]

Because on certain days they won't be able cope with their own customers plus Avanti + whatever else the ECML throws at them. It's not rocket science.

The original comment was:

LNER seem to take the view that if there is an unusually large flow of LNER passengers, then so be it, people will simply pack the train out (and if LNER passengers are unable to board, so be it).

However if there are passengers from other companies, then LNER's view is often that shouldn't be on the train.

LNER's attitude stinks and is not acceptable, but sadly there is no decent regulator, ombudsman or watchdog who can do anything about this poor behaviour.

To which @Wallsendmag and @800001 replied:

Strange that I've seen so many ticket acceptance emails recently then.

Agreed!! Every single day i would say for the last couple of weeks LNER in some shape of form have acceptance with other TOcs, wether that’s Avanti, TPE, XC, Hull, Lumo and Grand Central.

@yorkie responded:

There have been many reports of acceptance not being in place. If LNER are so good at accepting tickets, how could this be?

@Wallsendmag responded:

Just saying what I see , day after day after day.

It's clear that people are talking at cross-purposes to each other here. No one is claiming that LNER never agrees ticket acceptance - but equally no-one can deny that they also often refuse it and leave other TOCs' passengers to fend for themselves, which will in many cases put them in breach of their obligations under the NRCoT. The announcements and comments I've heard from traincrew and others clearly indicate a contempt for other TOCs' passengers, rather than a recognition that LNER is part of one organisation - the railway.

It's not good enough for LNER to comply with their obligations some, or even most, of the time. They need to comply 100% of the time and it's clear they're far from that. Imagine a lawyer defending their client against a speeding ticket on the grounds that "m'lord, my client usually does comply with the speed limit"

 

[yorkie]

It's clear that people are talking at cross-purposes to each other here. No one is claiming that LNER never agrees ticket acceptance - but equally no-one can deny that they also often refuse it and leave other TOCs' passengers to fend for themselves, which will in many cases put them in breach of their obligations under the NRCoT. The announcements and comments I've heard from traincrew and others clearly indicate a contempt for other TOCs' passengers, rather than a recognition that LNER is part of one organisation - the railway.

It's not good enough for LNER to comply with their obligations some, or even most, of the time. They need to comply 100% of the time and it's clear they're far from that. Imagine a lawyer defending their client against a speeding ticket on the grounds that "m'lord, my client usually does comply with the speed limit"

Exactly this!

 

[Watershed]

If you have an Avanti ticket, and their train doesn't run, and you chose to use LNER and pay more, (a) you get the money back off Avanti - eventually I suppose, but (b) can you charge them for the excess you had to pay for the LNER trip (ie if Avanti was £40, LNER £60, Avanti shoudl make up the £20 difference)?

If you simply choose to take LNER, even though there are reasonable alternatives (e.g. an Avanti train an hour later) or you haven't asked Avanti to assist you, then in most cases you wouldn't be able to recover either.

If on the other hand you are left to your own devices and told to get lost, as has evidently happened to hundreds or thousands of people here, then you will likely be entitled to recover the full cost of any reasonable expenses you incur to get you to your destination - regardless of whether that exceeds the original cost of your ticket.

After all, in thoery if Avanti cancel a train and there's no later alternative, wouldn't they pay your taxi/hotel bill? Or is the get-out clause "an act of XYZ that caused the landslip, nothing we could do guv, you're on your own"?

There's no such get-out clause, though many TOCs' customer services like to pretend there is.

Sorry to sound confused, but as a poor old passenger I find it all a bit bewildering.

That's exactly how the TOCs would like it to be. Most people will just take a refund and swallow their costs.

Also wonder if there have been any successful claims on holiday/travel insurance?

In most cases you will either be fundamentally ineligible to make a claim - as domestic travel is usually only covered if you have at least 2 nights' hotel accommodation booked, or there will be an exclusion that precludes your claim - e.g. because you're entitled to recover your expenses from the train operator (even if this means taking them to Court in practice).

 

[All Line Rover]

Avanti's Edinburgh services have all been cancelled north of Preston.

Why haven't Avanti organised ticket acceptance with CrossCountry, who continue to operate an hourly service between Edinburgh and Birmingham?

 

[Class83]

This is highlighting the need for a clearly understood equivalent of EU261 for rail travel, there are mentions of similar but not a lot of clarity about what they mean. Telling people not to travel is fine if they are at home and can stay there, but if they have made the outbound leg of their journey but the return is delayed/cancelled they may not have somewhere to stay.

But in simple terms passengers need to know they will get something like:

Delay exceeds say 3 hours, £10 voucher to spend at station catering outlets, for very long delays may need several.
Delay is overnight, accommodation will be provided
Rescheduled travel as soon as possible; either re-route via rail, Rail Replacement Bus, seat on a regular coach or for London to Edinburgh/Glasgow a plane.

 

[Howardh]

This is highlighting the need for a clearly understood equivalent of EU261 for rail travel, there are mentions of similar but not a lot of clarity about what they mean. Telling people not to travel is fine if they are at home and can stay there, but if they have made the outbound leg of their journey but the return is delayed/cancelled they may not have somewhere to stay.

But in simple terms passengers need to know they will get something like:

Delay exceeds say 3 hours, £10 voucher to spend at station catering outlets, for very long delays may need several.
Delay is overnight, accommodation will be provided
Rescheduled travel as soon as possible; either re-route via rail, Rail Replacement Bus, seat on a regular coach or for London to Edinburgh/Glasgow a plane.

I agree, but there's a chance that there wouldn't be any outlets available to spend that tenner, not like an airport where even in the middle of the night SOMEWHERE will be open (??). But otherwise passengers need this kind of committment, should be part of the T's and C's!

If I were a stranded passenger looking up my "rights", where would I find them??

 

[Watershed]

This is highlighting the need for a clearly understood equivalent of EU261 for rail travel, there are mentions of similar but not a lot of clarity about what they mean. Telling people not to travel is fine if they are at home and can stay there, but if they have made the outbound leg of their journey but the return is delayed/cancelled they may not have somewhere to stay.

But in simple terms passengers need to know they will get something like:

Delay exceeds say 3 hours, £10 voucher to spend at station catering outlets, for very long delays may need several.
Delay is overnight, accommodation will be provided
Rescheduled travel as soon as possible; either re-route via rail, Rail Replacement Bus, seat on a regular coach or for London to Edinburgh/Glasgow a plane.

The thing is that these legal entitlements already exist - by way of the NRCoT as well as EU Regulation 1371/2007 (the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation, PRO), which began applying to the domestic train operators in December 2019.

However, unlike EU261 where airlines are forced to provide information about passengers' EU261 rights at check-in desks/airport gates and on disruption notifications, train operators aren't required to inform customers about their rights under the PRO. There is also little or no training for frontline staff about the PRO, so only a handful will know it even exists, let alone what rights it imbues.

 

[greyman42]

Trains full and standing on the ECML today.

 

[endecotp]

Carlisle - Euston services are unbelievably maintaining their stopping patterns leaving Oxenholme and Penrith without a service south of Preston for four hour gaps.

When my TPE Edinburgh - Penrith was cancelled last month, I asked the Avanti platform staff if their next service could make an additional stop at Penrith. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: The request needs to come from TPE.
Me: OK, I’ll look for a TPE person to ask.
Them: There aren’t any TPE platform staff here in Edinburgh.

So I got on the train anyway and asked the train manager:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: Laughs.
Me: No don’t laugh, it’s a serious question. If you stop, I’ll be only 40 mins late. If you don’t stop I’ll be two hours late if the TPE connection runs which it didn’t on any day last week, otherwise four hours late.
Them: Unfortunately sir we can’t make additional stops because it will make us late for the whole of the rest of the journey to Euston.
Me: Please can you ask your control?
Them: So do you work in the rail industry?
Me: No. Please ask your control for an additional stop at Penrith because you have a lot of passengers from a cancelled TPE service who will otherwise be delayed for hours.

Announcement at Carlisle: Please note this train does not stop at Penrith, change here.

 

[Huntergreed]

When my TPE Edinburgh - Penrith was cancelled last month, I asked the Avanti platform staff if their next service could make an additional stop at Penrith. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: The request needs to come from TPE.
Me: OK, I’ll look for a TPE person to ask.
Them: There aren’t any TPE platform staff here in Edinburgh.

So I got on the train anyway and asked the train manager:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: Laughs.
Me: No don’t laugh, it’s a serious question. If you stop, I’ll be only 40 mins late. If you don’t stop I’ll be two hours late if the TPE connection runs which it didn’t on any day last week, otherwise four hours late.
Them: Unfortunately sir we can’t make additional stops because it will make us late for the whole of the rest of the journey to Euston.
Me: Please can you ask your control?
Them: So do you work in the rail industry?
Me: No. Please ask your control for an additional stop at Penrith because you have a lot of passengers from a cancelled TPE service who will otherwise be delayed for hours.

Announcement at Carlisle: Please note this train does not stop at Penrith, change here.

I’ve had this before.

I asked the TM of an Avanti Glasgow - London service if he could request a stop at Lockerbie. He, similarly, laughed and asked me “you definitely don’t work in the rail industry do you?” in a sarcastic manner.

Thing was, it was the last southbound service from Glasgow of the day (the following one, which does call at Lockerbie, was cancelled!) - even more annoyingly we arrived at Carlisle a good 5 minutes early, so we could easily have made the stop in Lockerbie. I arrived back home about 2 hours late, after having to get a lift from Carlisle as the next train to Lockerbie wasn’t for another 2 hours after I arrived!

The railway ideology seems to be that no matter how much inconvenience it may cause, the timetable is treated like some sacred text, and deviating from it is utter sacrilege. It’s certainly not a customer friendly approach and not something I experience anywhere near as often in Europe when travelling.

Anyway, we are drifting off topic! At least the strike came at a good time as the service would have been very reduced anyway. I’m booked to travel Glasgow - Carlisle next Monday, so I hope things are a lot better by then.

I do find it interesting that Avanti tend to prefer to hire out bus companies and shove everyone on a coach than to run a 221 up the GSW, allowing a more comfortable journey.

 

[The Prisoner]

When my TPE Edinburgh - Penrith was cancelled last month, I asked the Avanti platform staff if their next service could make an additional stop at Penrith. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: The request needs to come from TPE.
Me: OK, I’ll look for a TPE person to ask.
Them: There aren’t any TPE platform staff here in Edinburgh.

So I got on the train anyway and asked the train manager:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: Laughs.
Me: No don’t laugh, it’s a serious question. If you stop, I’ll be only 40 mins late. If you don’t stop I’ll be two hours late if the TPE connection runs which it didn’t on any day last week, otherwise four hours late.
Them: Unfortunately sir we can’t make additional stops because it will make us late for the whole of the rest of the journey to Euston.
Me: Please can you ask your control?
Them: So do you work in the rail industry?
Me: No. Please ask your control for an additional stop at Penrith because you have a lot of passengers from a cancelled TPE service who will otherwise be delayed for hours.

Announcement at Carlisle: Please note this train does not stop at Penrith, change here.

They did add the oxenholme and Penrith stops to plug those four hour gaps on NYE - but only with an hours notice for each service. I’d have been on the 1355 north to Carlisle from Penrith to get the 1449 back (as per what you they told me to do), which then ended up stopping at Penrith by the time they had made the decision.

As it was I drove. I won’t be coming back to Avanti.

It’s lunacy. An idiot could see there was a huge hole at whatever time in the morning the decision to run a much reduced service was made. Why wait til the last minute?

Similarly tonight the 1847 Carlisle - Euston (stops at Penrith) is cancelled and there is no TPE to connect into it. The 1947 (doesn’t stop at Penrith) is running. Just stop the damned 1947 at Penrith to cover the service. Is it that hard?

It’s unusable. Yes, they didn’t ask for a land slip, but that doesn’t mean you can just sack everything off and stop trying.

 

[Skiddaw]

They did add the oxenholme and Penrith stops to plug those four hour gaps on NYE - but only with an hours notice for each service. I’d have been on the 1355 north to Carlisle from Penrith to get the 1449 back (as per what you they told me to do), which then ended up stopping at Penrith by the time they had made the decision.

As it was I drove. I won’t be coming back to Avanti.

It’s lunacy. An idiot could see there was a huge hole at whatever time in the morning the decision to run a much reduced service was made. Why wait til the last minute?

Similarly tonight the 1847 Carlisle - Euston (stops at Penrith) is cancelled and there is no TPE to connect into it. The 1947 (doesn’t stop at Penrith) is running. Just stop the damned 1947 at Penrith to cover the service. Is it that hard?

It’s unusable. Yes, they didn’t ask for a land slip, but that doesn’t mean you can just sack everything off and stop trying.

Here, here....

 

[philthetube]

I thought it was the other way round: that trees destabilise the embankments.

They do but chopping them down, then allowing the roots to rot destabilises them more.

 

[Dryce]

Thing was, it was the last southbound service from Glasgow of the day (the following one, which does call at Lockerbie, was cancelled!) - even more annoyingly we arrived at Carlisle a good 5 minutes early, so we could easily have made the stop in Lockerbie. I arrived back home about 2 hours late, after having to get a lift from Carlisle as the next train to Lockerbie wasn’t for another 2 hours after I arrived!

The railway ideology seems to be that no matter how much inconvenience it may cause, the timetable is treated like some sacred text, and deviating from it is utter sacrilege. It’s certainly not a customer friendly approach and not something I experience anywhere near as often in Europe when travelling.

To be fair my recent experience of (frustrating delays and problems) has been a bit better.

I've been on Avanti evening services autumn last year that have then made additional stops (eg. Tamworth, Penrith, or Lockerbie).

I've also watched disrupted services be cancelled, reinstated, rerouted and rescheduled multiple times where as delaing incident evolves there has appeared to be ongoing effort behind the scenes to resolve getting as many people to their destination stations as is feasible.

 

[Horizon22]

a good example of customer service from back in the day, when customers were important, and all for 1 person,

Arguably, it is much easier for just 1 person. When you've got thousands of people unable to get to where they need to go, its a bit more difficult. Obviously Avanti's general operation leaves a lot to be desired, but this might be the operation a TOC is faced with.

1. Line is blocked ahead, trains have to terminate short - it is not known how long this will be for, potentially prolonged (3+ hours). It might be a key or busy route.
2. Other operators have refused ticket acceptance due to their own issues
3. Limited timetabled bus service after a certain point in the day,
4. Alternative transport (coaches) cannot be provided as there is no spare availability from the local rail replacement providers. No taxis available or just a sporadic service at certain locations depending on what is on the rank. Time-consuming to book.
5. Local provision of hotels is limited. If there are spaces, it is time-consuming to confirm all details, passenger information and you may stay need to try and convey them to the hotel (4)
6. An increasing level of staff are also disrupted and unable to get to their booked places of work / depots / stations on time.

This is why TOCs start stating "DO NOT TRAVEL". If you've ever tried to organise such a scenario, you want frankly to try and deal with as few people as possible because you are fully aware of how difficult the situation is and it would be a dereliction of duty to just keep throwing more people into a particularly challenging situation with prolonged waits and understandbly tensions growing. Of course some will still try and travel - and are entitled to - but the plee is always to those that can, please do postpone the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

And I am just saying what I see too.

Whether the comms is getting to the front-line staff on the ground could be a potential issue. I've known ticket acceptance to be arranged and broadcast, yet the staff member (guard / host / platform staff) knows nothing of it because they have not checked their emails / phone / staff info for a while.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

When my TPE Edinburgh - Penrith was cancelled last month, I asked the Avanti platform staff if their next service could make an additional stop at Penrith. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: The request needs to come from TPE.
Me: OK, I’ll look for a TPE person to ask.
Them: There aren’t any TPE platform staff here in Edinburgh.

So I got on the train anyway and asked the train manager:

Me: Please additional stop?
Them: Laughs.
Me: No don’t laugh, it’s a serious question. If you stop, I’ll be only 40 mins late. If you don’t stop I’ll be two hours late if the TPE connection runs which it didn’t on any day last week, otherwise four hours late.
Them: Unfortunately sir we can’t make additional stops because it will make us late for the whole of the rest of the journey to Euston.
Me: Please can you ask your control?
Them: So do you work in the rail industry?
Me: No. Please ask your control for an additional stop at Penrith because you have a lot of passengers from a cancelled TPE service who will otherwise be delayed for hours.

Announcement at Carlisle: Please note this train does not stop at Penrith, change here.

I've known consicentious guards and platform staff request additional stops before with their control. I also imagine many don't and feel like it be a worthless call and/or can't get through. It can be done and simply control do not always know what the situation - in terms of passenger loadings - are on the ground. Not to say it is always granted, but if the impact is manageable, I have seen such requests granted. If you don't ask, you don't get.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

Trains full and standing on the ECML today.

Hardly surprising.

 

[Banham7]

Let’s consider that, if this whole staffing issue was not a thing … then we could have had Avanti using their initiative to invest in diversionary routes, and this whole issue could have been partially avoided.

As most are probably aware, LNER have had diversionary routes via the Tyne Valley, Carlisle & Lockerbie during the Berwick engineering blockades. So with Avanti? I don’t see it being an impossible job to invest in a diversionary route via the Tyne Valley, Newcastle and Berwick. Voyagers are already gauged and permitted to run from Edinburgh to Newcastle, so all that will need doing is the Tyne Valley line, plus training of crews, with a possible crew swap at Newcastle.

Honestly, typical Avanti.

 

[jagardner1984]

What seems quite obvious from the above few posts is the fragmentation of the industry is putting the passenger last. What is clearly needed, call it GBR, call it a bolstered role for Network Rail control centres, something else …. Is someone who is going to see the bigger picture and make better decisions for that whole picture - rather than the nonsense of missing clearly needed stops because of delay repay concerns at the other end.

LNER/XC instructed to scramble a spare Craigentinny unit to Carlisle as a rescue shuttle to EDB (if necessary causing cancellations to less affected parts of the network.) … by comparison to a bus you’d even get a fair number on a pair of Scotrail 156 !

Avanti instructed to adjust stopping patterns to cover gaps from cancelled TPE services or vice versa.

Mandating additional training / route learning to provide additional diversionary routes / flexibility in the above scenarios (and many others)

Mandating ticket acceptance via a variety of operators multi modal to spread the surge loading on other previously unaffected routes.

Essentially, someone being the grown up in the room when it is clear these companies cannot.

Some might say given the swingeing cuts that are on their way for the railways, paying out vast amounts of delay repay to customers delayed 15 minutes on a 5 hour journey, when there is a clear “extreme weather event” and a clear do not travel instruction in place, is perhaps not the uppermost priority for the industry or their long suffering passengers.

I suspect in the above conditions most would sacrifice some of these rights for some more visible efforts being made to move them somewhere.

The “come back tomorrow” approach is simply not the way most people lead their lives these days.

 

[Falcon1200]

I do find it interesting that Avanti tend to prefer to hire out bus companies and shove everyone on a coach than to run a 221 up the GSW, allowing a more comfortable journey.

Yes, however the GSW is not available most of this week due to the RMT/NR strike.

 

[The Planner]

Let’s consider that, if this whole staffing issue was not a thing … then we could have had Avanti using their initiative to invest in diversionary routes, and this whole issue could have been partially avoided.

As most are probably aware, LNER have had diversionary routes via the Tyne Valley, Carlisle & Lockerbie during the Berwick engineering blockades. So with Avanti? I don’t see it being an impossible job to invest in a diversionary route via the Tyne Valley, Newcastle and Berwick. Voyagers are already gauged and permitted to run from Edinburgh to Newcastle, so all that will need doing is the Tyne Valley line, plus training of crews, with a possible crew swap at Newcastle.

Honestly, typical Avanti.

I can see both sides of it. If Avanti wanted to do this, then they would want to understand how often they would need to do it. As a nice to have it is never going to stack up, as you need to keep that route retention up over a period of time. If it was a sustained amount of planned engineering works a TOC would likely look at it. It still has a cost though, and even though in these uncertain times they are under written by the DfT, you are not just going to spend an ongoing amount of cash on it.

The other side of it is the level of service they could provide and if its favourable. If its only a small amount of trains per day you run into the risks of people seeing it on journey planners and it being overloaded as everyone tries to use it. Sometimes RRBs are still the best option on journey time, cost and operationally.

 

[nlogax]

(deleted)

 

[The Prisoner]

What seems quite obvious from the above few posts is the fragmentation of the industry is putting the passenger last. What is clearly needed, call it GBR, call it a bolstered role for Network Rail control centres, something else …. Is someone who is going to see the bigger picture and make better decisions for that whole picture - rather than the nonsense of missing clearly needed stops because of delay repay concerns at the other end.

LNER/XC instructed to scramble a spare Craigentinny unit to Carlisle as a rescue shuttle to EDB (if necessary causing cancellations to less affected parts of the network.) … by comparison to a bus you’d even get a fair number on a pair of Scotrail 156 !

Avanti instructed to adjust stopping patterns to cover gaps from cancelled TPE services or vice versa.

Mandating additional training / route learning to provide additional diversionary routes / flexibility in the above scenarios (and many others)

Mandating ticket acceptance via a variety of operators multi modal to spread the surge loading on other previously unaffected routes.

Essentially, someone being the grown up in the room when it is clear these companies cannot.

Some might say given the swingeing cuts that are on their way for the railways, paying out vast amounts of delay repay to customers delayed 15 minutes on a 5 hour journey, when there is a clear “extreme weather event” and a clear do not travel instruction in place, is perhaps not the uppermost priority for the industry or their long suffering passengers.

I suspect in the above conditions most would sacrifice some of these rights for some more visible efforts being made to move them somewhere.

The “come back tomorrow” approach is simply not the way most people lead their lives these days.

Excellent post, but far too much common sense for the railways in their current format. Instead we have jobsworths, accountants and the DfT at the top running everything into the ground.

 

[mrmartin]

What seems quite obvious from the above few posts is the fragmentation of the industry is putting the passenger last. What is clearly needed, call it GBR, call it a bolstered role for Network Rail control centres, something else …. Is someone who is going to see the bigger picture and make better decisions for that whole picture - rather than the nonsense of missing clearly needed stops because of delay repay concerns at the other end.

LNER/XC instructed to scramble a spare Craigentinny unit to Carlisle as a rescue shuttle to EDB (if necessary causing cancellations to less affected parts of the network.) … by comparison to a bus you’d even get a fair number on a pair of Scotrail 156 !

Avanti instructed to adjust stopping patterns to cover gaps from cancelled TPE services or vice versa.

Mandating additional training / route learning to provide additional diversionary routes / flexibility in the above scenarios (and many others)

Mandating ticket acceptance via a variety of operators multi modal to spread the surge loading on other previously unaffected routes.

Essentially, someone being the grown up in the room when it is clear these companies cannot.

Some might say given the swingeing cuts that are on their way for the railways, paying out vast amounts of delay repay to customers delayed 15 minutes on a 5 hour journey, when there is a clear “extreme weather event” and a clear do not travel instruction in place, is perhaps not the uppermost priority for the industry or their long suffering passengers.

I suspect in the above conditions most would sacrifice some of these rights for some more visible efforts being made to move them somewhere.

The “come back tomorrow” approach is simply not the way most people lead their lives these days.

Obviously Avanti should be adjusting stopping patterns, which I believe did happen (but very late notice).

The rest isn't that practical in reality. Even if there was diversion knowledge in place, what is the likelihood you'd have a spare driver + unit sitting in Edinburgh for this eventuality on NYE (esp with industrial action)? Pretty low I thought, unless there are going to be standby drivers sitting around all over the country.

Ticket acceptance also is a good idea but in reality there wouldn't be the capacity on LNER to take everyone I assume, so you'd just have stories under a future GBR of people being told to go all the way to Newcastle just to get stranded there. I can see the headlines already.

At the end of the day there is only so much you can do when such a major line gets blocked. It's like if the M6 got closed, there isn't really the capacity on the surrounding road network to set up diversions.

 

[jagardner1984]

Obviously Avanti should be adjusting stopping patterns, which I believe did happen (but very late notice).

The rest isn't that practical in reality. Even if there was diversion knowledge in place, what is the likelihood you'd have a spare driver + unit sitting in Edinburgh for this eventuality on NYE (esp with industrial action)? Pretty low I thought, unless there are going to be standby drivers sitting around all over the country.

Ticket acceptance also is a good idea but in reality there wouldn't be the capacity on LNER to take everyone I assume, so you'd just have stories under a future GBR of people being told to go all the way to Newcastle just to get stranded there. I can see the headlines already.

At the end of the day there is only so much you can do when such a major line gets blocked. It's like if the M6 got closed, there isn't really the capacity on the surrounding road network to set up diversions.

My point is not that I think it is possible, indeed, I actually have much sympathy with Avanti for the reasons it is not, the entire reason they were given the franchise in pre Covid times is because they offered more premium to DFT, and calculated ways of doing so (ie cost reductions). Had they not, someone else’s beancounters would have worked out how to make the First class service cheaper, or how to prolong the life of the assets, and we would be talking about another operator’s name in similar circumstances. The problem is not the operator but the structures and finances that have put them there.

My point is that if we are serious in saying people should abandon their cars, jettison short haul flights and take the train, they need to come up with better responses than “there is only so much we can do”. “Come back another day”. If that means cancelling one of the hourly services on an alternative route otherwise running normally, then that is the better “whole network view” to solving what was (speaking to someone who eventually got home many many hours later from a journey originating in Cardiff via a service bus from Carlisle being diverted along country lanes past the M74 closure) rapidly approaching crisis point for the poor staff hung out to dry (some pun intended) by the abysmal decision making above, at Carlisle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The landslip near Carstairs is shown in this picture on the Network Rail web site:

Mainline from Glasgow to Carlisle closed until January 6 for vital repairs

Emergency engineering works are now under way on the West Coast Mainline near Carstairs, between Carlisle and Glasgow, to repair flood damage.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

It's evidently an embankment failure and needs significant reinforcement, so not surprising it will take the rest of the week to reinstate.

 

[exbrel]

Arguably, it is much easier for just 1 person. When you've got thousands of people unable to get to where they need to go, its a bit more difficult. Obviously Avanti's general operation leaves a lot to be desired, but this might be the operation a TOC is faced with.

1. Line is blocked ahead, trains have to terminate short - it is not known how long this will be for, potentially prolonged (3+ hours). It might be a key or busy route.
2. Other operators have refused ticket acceptance due to their own issues
3. Limited timetabled bus service after a certain point in the day,
4. Alternative transport (coaches) cannot be provided as there is no spare availability from the local rail replacement providers. No taxis available or just a sporadic service at certain locations depending on what is on the rank. Time-consuming to book.
5. Local provision of hotels is limited. If there are spaces, it is time-consuming to confirm all details, passenger information and you may stay need to try and convey them to the hotel (4)
6. An increasing level of staff are also disrupted and unable to get to their booked places of work / depots / stations on time.

This is why TOCs start stating "DO NOT TRAVEL". If you've ever tried to organise such a scenario, you want frankly to try and deal with as few people as possible because you are fully aware of how difficult the situation is and it would be a dereliction of duty to just keep throwing more people into a particularly challenging situation with prolonged waits and understandbly tensions growing. Of course some will still try and travel - and are entitled to - but the plee is always to those that can, please do postpone the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==



Hardly surprising.

but are these new problems faced by rail companies? as i said back in the day, and its not that far back, we had a good train service, and front line staff who were willing to help the public. Now, before strikes started, services were late, cancelled, no info given, staff who didn't seemed bothered, not all, but it seemed if you needed help, you found one.
On a recent XC from Southampton to Manchester, after it left Coventry we came to a stop for about 20-25mins, the tm gave a reason, they changed tm's in Birmingham and he gave 2 different reasons up to Manchester, so if you are being informed be consistent, but i'd like to add the trip down to Southampton was spot on time wise.
Going on a good number of the posts, a TOC can't work outside of the box with any problem, or not willing to, and staff although faced with problems, are the first point of contact, with about 8-9 out of 10 of passengers not railway savy, and need help, but they should try or at least show willing... now with the strikes things are a lot more hectic for any of the public venturing into a railway station.

 

[Horizon22]

but are these new problems faced by rail companies? as i said back in the day, and its not that far back, we had a good train service, and front line staff who were willing to help the public. Now, before strikes started, services were late, cancelled, no info given, staff who didn't seemed bothered, not all, but it seemed if you needed help, you found one.
On a recent XC from Southampton to Manchester, after it left Coventry we came to a stop for about 20-25mins, the tm gave a reason, they changed tm's in Birmingham and he gave 2 different reasons up to Manchester, so if you are being informed be consistent, but i'd like to add the trip down to Southampton was spot on time wise.
Going on a good number of the posts, a TOC can't work outside of the box with any problem, or not willing to, and staff although faced with problems, are the first point of contact, with about 8-9 out of 10 of passengers not railway savy, and need help, but they should try or at least show willing... now with the strikes things are a lot more hectic for any of the public venturing into a railway station.

It’s hardly surprising that in a time of industrial action that staff morale may be low and customer service might not up to be the same standard with less “above and beyond”. You’ll have to define a “good train service” as there have always been severe episodes of disruption with options for passengers extremely limited.

In reference to my points - to which you haven’t expanded or how you might handle a situation - some are new problems. Particularly with regards to point 2 (other operators suffering from general industry malaise which didn’t exist a few years back), 4 (severe shortage of coach / bus drivers nationwide) and 5 (specific issue of NYE).

 

[exbrel]

but are these new problems faced by rail companies? as i said back in the day, and its not that far back, we had a good train service, and front line staff who were willing to help the public. Now, before strikes started, services were late, cancelled, no info given, staff who didn't seemed bothered, not all, but it seemed if you needed help, you found one.
On a recent XC from Southampton to Manchester, after it left Coventry we came to a stop for about 20-25mins, the tm gave a reason, they changed tm's in Birmingham and he gave 2 different reasons up to Manchester, so if you are being informed be consistent, but i'd like to add the trip down to Southampton was spot on time wise.
Going on a good number of the posts, a TOC can't work outside of the box with any problem, or not willing to, and staff although faced with problems, are the first point of contact, with about 8-9 out of 10 of passengers not railway savy, and need help, but they should try or at least show willing... now with the strikes things are a lot more hectic for any of the public venturing into a railway station.

my comment "good service" was a descent timetable, more reliable and on time trains, and so it was well used, covid changed that, and then the strikes hit, but i still say pre-covid you could catch a train within 5 or 10 mins of its departure time.
1 out of your 6 points comes as a act of God, the other 5 comes because the TOC's have not arranged for these happenings in a contingency plan... ie a train delayed, so arriving at a station passengers get off, train goes to its depot, and the said passengers are locked IN the station... because the staff had gone home, at the end of their shift, fair enough. So why was no emergency staff laid on, the situation must have been known. It would not have happened pre covid...

 

[TPO]

I'd be interested in knowing how much wriggle-room the TOCs actually have to sort out situations.

It has been intimated to me by an industry contact that TOCs are not allowed to change the figurative lightbulb without permission from DfT- basically any extra cost over a few quid needs specific authorisation. If that's the case then it's DfT micro-management we should be directing ire at, not the TOCs management.

TPO

 

[Horizon22]

my comment "good service" was a descent timetable, more reliable and on time trains, and so it was well used, covid changed that, and then the strikes hit, but i still say pre-covid you could catch a train within 5 or 10 mins of its departure time.
1 out of your 6 points comes as a act of God, the other 5 comes because the TOC's have not arranged for these happenings in a contingency plan... ie a train delayed, so arriving at a station passengers get off, train goes to its depot, and the said passengers are locked IN the station... because the staff had gone home, at the end of their shift, fair enough. So why was no emergency staff laid on, the situation must have been known. It would not have happened pre covid...

We must be talking at cross purposes here because what has that got to do with severe weather, which is what my specific 6 points were about? Are you referring to the Oxhenholme incident?

Also where are you sourcing “emergency staff” from? It’s a very blanket statement to say pre-Covid catch a train “within 5 to 10 minutes of departure time” Resources are not limited and just referring to “contingency” with no additional detail or practicality is not helpful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

I'd be interested in knowing how much wriggle-room the TOCs actually have to sort out situations.

It has been intimated to me by an industry contact that TOCs are not allowed to change the figurative lightbulb without permission from DfT- basically any extra cost over a few quid needs specific authorisation. If that's the case then it's DfT micro-management we should be directing ire at, not the TOCs management.

TPO

It’s definitely worse than it has been in recent years.

 

[exbrel]

We must be talking at cross purposes here because what has that got to do with severe weather, which is what my specific 6 points were about? Are you referring to the Oxhenholme incident?

Also where are you sourcing “emergency staff” from? It’s a very blanket statement to say pre-Covid catch a train “within 5 to 10 minutes of departure time” Resources are not limited and just referring to “contingency” with no additional detail or practicality is not helpful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

i must apologise my statement number 1 an act of God is as the other 5, could/can be included in a list of contingency planing... ie if this happens, we call so and so, to arrange so and so, if this cannot be done, we arrange something else... So if we have any problem that stops our service, we arrange that our passengers can get alternative transport or means to go to their destination, if none available somewhere safe to stop till they can be moved... old school planing, and if its done properly your customers are happy, and will travel with you again.
i know that sounds very old fashioned, and its easy for me to say it, but as a train company you ply your trade at a price, to get a person from A-B for a price, its a contract, and if you can't stick to that contract, you should be fined and contract cancelled...
As to emergency staff, you pay to have staff on call, aye thats the rub, people sitting about on call getting paid just in case they are needed, but when they are needed, job done.
All this comes at a price, so profits and stockholders have to take the hit.