Gatwick Express: Tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express" claimed as not valid at Brighton

[ainsworth74]

The main difference between GTR and the "brands" of other operators is that, operationally, TL, GX, SN and GN are still 4 different "operators" in the Network Rail and National Rail industry systems with separate codes, while all the Stansted Express, Inter7City, Castle Class or InterCity 225 aren't different operators in the industry systems and the services are listed under the code of the real operator. Therefore it is possible to restrict a ticket to be not valid on GX services but not only specific services inside a single operator unless using the time-based restrictions to get around it.

As @MikeWh indicated we're talking legality and contractually not what can be achieved technically.

 

[Benjwri]

Not really; this was not in any way a brand restriction.

Is it not a brand restriction by proxy? It still exists to this day, and for example ticket restriction FO bans travel on every service except the Didcot stoppers in the evening. Surely this is just as bad, and also not allowed in the same way, otherwise tomorrow Southern could repaint their entire fleet in Southern colours and just use ticket restrictions to ban travel on their 'premium', faster trains.

 

[Birmingham]

ticket restriction FO bans travel on every service except the Didcot stoppers in the evening.

Not valid on the 17:01 from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads? Oh, that's fine, it'll be sure to be valid on the 17:02 from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads then. Not valid on the 17:15 to Carmarthen? No worries, I'll take the 17:18 to Swansea then. What a farce.

 

[Watershed]

Not valid on the 17:01 from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads? Oh, that's fine, it'll be sure to be valid on the 17:02 from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads then. Not valid on the 17:15 to Carmarthen? No worries, I'll take the 17:18 to Swansea then. What a farce.

Even worse than that is that it includes services after 19:00, even though restriction code FO is used on some regulated tickets.

GWR just don't seem to get it. Instead, they're doubling down and have extended the application of these silly evening peak restrictions more widely!

 

[Benjwri]

Even worse than that is that it includes services after 19:00, even though restriction code FO is used on some regulated tickets.

GWR just don't seem to get it. Instead, they're doubling down and have extended the application of these silly evening peak restrictions more widely!

Could they even get into trouble, considering the 19:01 to Bristol no longer even exists!

 

[colinz]

Maybe this is quite far from the original topic — I wonder how does GTR’s brand restriction compared to Southeastern’s 00131 “PLUS HIGH SPEED” restriction? (and to a lesser extent also their 00130 “NOT VALID ON HS1”)

For one thing, the “high speed” also looks like a brand, and is definitely not a standalone TOC compared to SE’s other services from CHX/VIC etc, although “HS1” in 00130 is a route restriction. For another, it does intuitively feel more reasonable to have different fares for journeys involving Javelin trains, compared to the GTR’s GX service.

 

[Alex365Dash]

For one thing, the “high speed” also looks like a brand, and is definitely not a standalone TOC compared to SE’s other services from CHX/VIC etc, although “HS1” in 00130 is a route restriction. For another, it does intuitively feel more reasonable to have different fares for journeys involving Javelin trains, compared to the GTR’s GX service.

To be honest, I’d just see it as a route restriction with HS1/High Speed defined as St Pancras Intl - Ashford Intl inclusive.

If SE really wanted to, the route could be changed to 00131 EBFLT/STRFD INTL (priced higher than route 00130 to allow 00130 to be used) and 00130 Not via Ebbsfleet or Stratford International (good luck fitting that in 16 characters whilst still writing a meaningful restriction!) to communicate the same thing, but I think that’d just be more confusing and HS1 can reasonably be interpreted as a route in and of itself - Gatwick Express isn’t.

 

[yorkie]

Maybe this is quite far from the original topic — I wonder how does GTR’s brand restriction compared to Southeastern’s 00131 “PLUS HIGH SPEED” restriction? (and to a lesser extent also their 00130 “NOT VALID ON HS1”)

It's a route restriction, not a brand restriction. The company does not in any way attempt to claim tickets are invalid based on branding.

 

[Watershed]

It's a route restriction, not a brand restriction. The company does not in any way attempt to claim tickets are invalid based on branding.

... and nor do SE try to be difficult about getting excess fares if you have a "not High Speed" ticket. They even have dedicated excess fares created ready to sell.

 

[danm14]

... and nor do SE try to be difficult about getting excess fares if you have a "not High Speed" ticket. They even have dedicated excess fares created ready to sell.

Are they difficult about purchasing a regular change of route excess in circumstances where this is cheaper than the dedicated upgrade fare?

For example, if I hold a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl NOT VALID ON HS1 costing £30.30, in practice will I be allowed to pay £6.10 to excess this to a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl PLUS HIGH SPEED costing £36.40; or will I be forced to buy the dedicated £7.20 upgrade fare?

 

[Alex365Dash]

nor do SE try to be difficult about getting excess fares if you have a "not High Speed" ticket. They even have dedicated excess fares created ready to sell.

This may be true, but GX also have dedicated supplement fares (not excesses since you can’t excess away a TOC restriction although it’s a TOC restriction so it’s already valid…) for if you already hold a Thameslink or Southern ticket.

That said, GX supplement fares aren’t universal and they don’t exist for origin-destination pairs that probably should have them, like Haywards Heath to London Victoria for passengers with Not Gatwick Express tickets. I’m also not sure as to how often they’re used either.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suppose it would be similarly unlawful for West Midlands Trains to accept tickets on the stopping West Midlands Trains services between Birmingham and Wolverhampton (those from Walsall which call everywhere), but not on the fast London Northwestern Railway ones, of which the Liverpool/Crewe ones only call at Smethwick, but unlike GTR, I don't think there's a case where WMT have attempted to do this.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Would you recommend buying the cheaper tickets then and claiming refunds, or do you think the hassle of the refund claim isn't worth it. Also, is this also the case with the Southern day saver - if I used it on Thameslink or Gatwick Express could I claim back any penalty fare?

Note that if you're not wanting to arrive specifically at Victoria as your London terminal destination, you can avoid the hassle of the (claimed) restrictions on different brand tickets, and still avoid the GX higher fare, while using GX trains from Brighton as far as their last stop before London (ie generally Gatwick) and then changing - you do this by getting not a "via T/L" (ie brand/route restriction), but a "to T/L destinations" ticket (ie valid to reach anywhere between London Bridge and St P. [And besides avoiding the GX premium price, these have the same off-peak and super-off-peak discounts as the "via T/L tickets".] This enables travel from Brighton to Waterloo, as well as to London Bridge, Blackfriars etc (changing from Waterloo to Waterloo East), having travelled on the Victoria route as far as Clapham Junction. (Also, of course, you can use the GX from B'ton as far as Gatwick, and switch there to a train to London Bridge.)

 

[superalbs]

Are they difficult about purchasing a regular change of route excess in circumstances where this is cheaper than the dedicated upgrade fare?

For example, if I hold a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl NOT VALID ON HS1 costing £30.30, in practice will I be allowed to pay £6.10 to excess this to a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl PLUS HIGH SPEED costing £36.40; or will I be forced to buy the dedicated £7.20 upgrade fare?

This is probably for another thread, but I had a ticket that I wanted to do a change of route excess for £2, and the ticket office wanted to sell one of their high-speed upgrades for £4. Only after a bit of further explanation was I offered the cheaper £2 excess fare.

 

[Alex365Dash]

you do this by getting not a "via T/L" (ie brand/route restriction), but a "to T/L destinations" ticket (ie valid to reach anywhere between London Bridge and St P.

If you’re travelling onwards to another London Terminal (or a cross-London interchange point) you can’t reach using Thameslink, Southern or one of the other Southern Region terminals, I find it easier to buy a ticket a little beyond central London that’s still priced by TLGN rather than Southern. For example, when I’m travelling via Liverpool Street, I get Advances up and down the GEML then use a Brighton to Leytonstone High Road return to get home with cross-London validity - the plus of this is that despite it being priced for Thameslink, it’s routed Any Permitted so I can use it via Victoria if I need to.

 

[paul1609]

Are they difficult about purchasing a regular change of route excess in circumstances where this is cheaper than the dedicated upgrade fare?

For example, if I hold a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl NOT VALID ON HS1 costing £30.30, in practice will I be allowed to pay £6.10 to excess this to a Super Off Peak Day Single from London Terminals to Ashford Intl PLUS HIGH SPEED costing £36.40; or will I be forced to buy the dedicated £7.20 upgrade fare?

The £7.20 upgrade is the anytime upgrade. There is also a Super Off Peak Upgrade at £6.10. that you can buy at the St Pancras SE TVMs
The reason that HS1 has upgrades rather than excesses is to allow Not HS1 season ticket holders flexibility.

 

[infobleep]

The main difference between GTR and the "brands" of other operators is that, operationally, TL, GX, SN and GN are still 4 different "operators" in the Network Rail and National Rail industry systems with separate codes, while all the Stansted Express, Inter7City, Castle Class or InterCity 225 aren't different operators in the industry systems and the services are listed under the code of the real operator. Therefore it is possible to restrict a ticket to be not valid on GX services but not only specific services inside a single operator unless using the time-based restrictions to get around it.

I recently contacted the BBC News to correct them when they said 15 TO's were on strike.

I pointed out

Southern/Gatwick Express and Greater Northern/Thameslink are just brands owned by Govia Thameslink Railway. They are not separate companies.

The Island Line is also owned by South Western Railway so I think they are also not a separate company.

However, that is the terms the Rail Develiery Group use and even at the Transport Select Committee one of the union reps referred to there being 15 TOCs in dispute.

Even they can't get it right, it seems and they work in the industry.

No wonder the BBC didn't correct their factual error or respond to my e-mail.

 

[Benjwri]

However, that is the terms the Rail Develiery Group use and even at the Trabsport Select Committee one of the union reps referred to their being 15 TOCs in dispute.

Even they can't get it right, it seems and they work in the industry.

No wonder the BBC didn't correct their factual error or respond to my e-mail.

Do you blame them though? The lines between a 'brand' and an 'operator' are very blurred.

Gatwick Express is a service run by Southern, using rebranded Southern trains and Southern staff.
Heathrow Express is a service run a GWR, using rebranded GWR trains and GWR staff.

Yet Heathrow Express is its own operator, which doesn't have to obey NRCoT, can charge effectively whatever it wants with no recourse and can inflate prices of competing services.

This is effectively all down to legal complexities with franchising and open access operators, which can be quite difficult to understand.

 

[geoffk]

Is it not a brand restriction by proxy? It still exists to this day, and for example ticket restriction FO bans travel on every service except the Didcot stoppers in the evening. Surely this is just as bad, and also not allowed in the same way, otherwise tomorrow Southern could repaint their entire fleet in Southern colours and just use ticket restrictions to ban travel on their 'premium', faster trains.

Surely all trains from London to Brighton are operated by GTR.

 

[Benjwri]

Surely all trains from London to Brighton are operated by GTR.

Not sure what you mean? My point was First Greater Western, operating under the brand GWR, operate all trains from London to Didcot, however under the guise of Off-Peak restrictions limit travel on cheaper tickets to their less premium, slower trains, rather than their 'express' IETs.

If GTR is told it can't sell 'Southern ONLY' tickets, surely GTR, operating under the brand Southern, could introduce trains which run express Brighton -> Gatwick -> Victoria, again still using Southern branding but perhaps with a nicer look, nicer seats etc, then use ticket restrictions to restrict cheaper ticket types to only travel on slower services. If GWR are allowed to do it, Southern can too, and it is a brand restriction by proxy.

 

[Hadders]

Not sure what you mean? My point was First Greater Western, operating under the brand GWR, operate all trains from London to Didcot, however under the guise of Off-Peak restrictions limit travel on cheaper tickets to their less premium, slower trains, rather than their 'express' IETs.

If GTR is told it can't sell 'Southern ONLY' tickets, surely GTR, operating under the brand Southern, could introduce trains which run express Brighton -> Gatwick -> Victoria, again still using Southern branding but perhaps with a nicer look, nicer seats etc, then use ticket restrictions to restrict cheaper ticket types to only travel on slower services. If GWR are allowed to do it, Southern can too, and it is a brand restriction by proxy.

GWR do not have brand restrictions. GWR restrict the times you can travel in a rather draconian way which is allowed.`

 

[Benjwri]

GWR do not have brand restrictions. GWR restrict the times you can travel in a rather draconian way which is allowed.`

Yes, what I'm trying to so is if Southern are told they cannot restrict travel on GatEx services, surely they are allowed to do this exact thing and restrict the times you can travel, at least at some times of day.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, what I'm trying to so is if Southern are told they cannot restrict travel on GatEx services, surely they are allowed to do this exact thing and restrict the times you can travel, at least at some times of day.

Is it possible for GTR to restrict travel on trains which don't call on Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

 

[paul1609]

Id suggest that for the passenger there is no difference between GTRs brands and the seperate operating companies all operating by Dft OLR (LNER, Northern and Southeastern). Surely in the probably unlikely instance of losing the court case all that will happen is that GTR will set up shell companies and charge the taxpayer for the extra costs.

 

[Hadders]

Yes, what I'm trying to so is if Southern are told they cannot restrict travel on GatEx services, surely they are allowed to do this exact thing and restrict the times you can travel, at least at some times of day.

It would be farcical to try and restrict tickets where contactless PAYG is used as a method of payment.
Many tickets between London and Gatwick are Anytime - these can't be restricted by time.

So in practice it couldn't work.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not really; this was not in any way a brand restriction.

So would you be happy for GTR to change their restriction to be "not valid on trains scheduled to depart London Victoria at 05:59, 06:29, 06:59, 07:29, 07:59, 08:29, 08:59, 09:29, 09:59....."? Because that's a time restriction, not a brand restriction, but an identical effect.

 

[SargeNpton]

Do you blame them though? The lines between a 'brand' and an 'operator' are very blurred.

Gatwick Express is a service run by Southern, using rebranded Southern trains and Southern staff.
Heathrow Express is a service run a GWR, using rebranded GWR trains and GWR staff.

Yet Heathrow Express is its own operator, which doesn't have to obey NRCoT, can charge effectively whatever it wants with no recourse and can inflate prices of competing services.

This is effectively all down to legal complexities with franchising and open access operators, which can be quite difficult to understand.

Heathrow Express is a service that GWR runs as an outsourced contract on behalf of Heathrow Airport. It is not part of the GWR franchise.

 

[MikeWh]

Is it possible for GTR to restrict travel on trains which don't call on Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

Not as far as I know.

 

[Benjwri]

Heathrow Express is a service that GWR runs as an outsourced contract on behalf of Heathrow Airport. It is not part of the GWR franchise.

Yes I’m aware, my point was to a newspaper etc, the difference is not obvious, you could argue every TOC is just running services in an outsourced contract for the government, so the only real difference is GWR is running it for Heathrow, and GTR for the DfT.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is it possible for GTR to restrict travel on trains which don't call on Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

Unlikely, as doing so would prevent tickets being sold for completely unrelated journeys that use the same validity code, as restrictions are of the form "Calling at <location> between <times>"

I stand for correction, however.