New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[ar10642]

Maybe said passengers should look into what is actually going on and think things through. The RMT as well as protecting members T&Cs, wanting reasonable rates of pay for their members, also want both the safety of their members and that of the passengers to be good. I would have thought that a passengers number one priority would be their own safety.

Almost of the train travel I do is DOO services. I haven't used a ticket office in years. I'm not seeing this terrible danger that's supposed to be happening.

So are you going to vote Conservative or vote out this government by voting for another party? .

I'll be voting against the tories but let's not pretend the RMT won't be threatening strikes again soon after the government has changed, they are never happy with any kind of change at all.

 

[baz962]

maybe that should be put in with the next deal????

I will vote for that

 

[ar10642]

I'm sure the various union-haters on here make a habit of posting regularly on nursing forums / postal worker forums / barrister forums, telling workers in those sectors to 'go back to work' and that they have no right to expect a reasonable pay rise, should put up with any erosion of Ts & Cs / threat of redundancies and generally be grateful that they have a job at all... right?

Is this a workers' forum then? It's not advertised as such.

 

[43066]

A point you have made on more than one occasion is that railway employees are, in the main, interested in good outcomes for passengers. As the representatives of those passenger-centric folk, the RMT could perhaps portray themselves as a little less militantly anti-passenger...

Again this misses the point and appears to be unduly criticising railway staff?

We’re passenger centric to a point - we also have a job to do. Why do think think the RMT is “anti passenger”, they’ve never advertised themselves as being “pro passenger”. They’re neutral on the subject because,

all together now: it isn’t their job to look out for passengers.

Performance management has become something of a cottage industry and is chock full of experts and BS. At its core however was a desire to make managers better - it was developed to counter the old American style of command and control management and that is something I think is very valuable when done well. Management - as opposed to leadership - is a skill in itself which needs to be learned, most of us are not born knowing how to do it well and just because you drive a train well or programme a computer well does not mean that you will manage well.

I know all of that, I’ve managed graduates and indeed had to sack one once after he failed his accountancy exams. A grown man bursting into tears in the meeting. Not exactly my idea of fun.

The railway seems to be somewhat outside of this norm - in the same way that investment banks and city law firms are but in the opposite direction

Interesting you think you’re an arbiter of “this norm”. Can I ask which industries you’ve worked in, to inform your view?

Have you ever worked for a city law firm? I certainly have (as a fee earning lawyer). Another bubble, and my God people criticising railway salaries are in for a shock! NQ solicitors at the firm I worked at pull in £125k, partners do £2m plus.

I left to do something I thought I enjoyed - the toxicity is making me wish I’d not made that move and continued to coin it.

@Harbon 1 as stated earlier, I refer you to what I said in my previous post and that if you wish to discuss any of those issues on any more.l detail to create a relevant thread.

You are being disingenuous; any teacher that attempted to stick to 35 hours per week and not do anything extra wouldn't last long. I don't understand why you brought this up. My point absolutely still stands.


It's perfectly valid to point out this fact.

You’re being disingenuous. How do you think things would go for a train driver refusing to work over 35 hours?

The sack, is the answer.

 

[12LDA28C]

Is this a workers' forum then? It's not advertised as such.

No, and nor is it an anti-union forum although sometimes you wouldn't know it.

My point is, do you also aim your vitriol at UNITE and the RCN for example, because they are standing up for their members, or is it only the rail unions you have a problem with?

 

[yorkie]

You’re being disingenuous.

How? I pulled someone up for a comparison they made regarding teachers; others have since decided to disagree with what I said and
some of that was misleading, so I have been debunking false claims.

How do you think things would go for a train driver refusing to work over 35 hours?

The sack, is the answer.

How has that got to do with anything I have said? I've made no comment on that matter.

 

[jayah]

It is not unreasonable to agree to no mandatory redundancies with a planning horizon - in this case about 2 years - when tied with a programme of workplace change and remuneration change covering the same period.

Repeated bouts of VR or an indefinite ban on CR does indeed drive stagnation as the cream leaves. Many organisations are not looking to keep all of their high-flyers and are very productive with a cross section of staff. Those who are unable or unwilling to meet the requirements of their job can be exited by other means

It is a hamstrung reorganisation that begins on the premise there will be no compulsory redundancy or that only the employees can choose that option if they want it.

The railway is currently financially unsustainable. Its financiers (government) are bust, its customers are on strike (because employees thought strikes don't consequences) and it is stuck with a deadweight of unresolved issues like DOO and ticket offices where the can has been kicked down the road for years.

If there was ever a time when it was imperative as an 'exception' not to agree no compulsory redundancy was now.

As I mentioned, indulging this infantile and reality denying proposition (which cannot exist in the productive economy) is inevitably indefinite as it has already become a red line for this and every future negotiation.

It isn't possible to exit people by other means when it is not their ability to meet the requirements of their job, but the requirements or existence of their job that has changed.

Which they do, as sure as night follows day, except in the Jackanory world of the RMT.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2023 ==

I'll be voting against the tories but let's not pretend the RMT won't be threatening strikes again soon after the government has changed, they are never happy with any kind of change at all.

How many strikes have there been now against London Underground, run of course by a Labour Mayor!

DOO is an existential crisis for the RMT whose primary means of expression is to stop the trains. They can only do that if their guards are deemed a safety critical member of staff without whom the trains will not run.

 

[ChrisC]

You are being disingenuous; any teacher that attempted to stick to 35 hours per week and not do anything extra wouldn't last long. I don't understand why you brought this up. My point absolutely still stands.

I totally agree. I can’t speak for teachers in secondary education as I have no experience there, but as a retired primary school teacher I can’t see anyone trying to stick to a 35 hour week lasting much longer than half a term. During my last few years teaching I was going into school before 8am every morning and rarely leaving before 6pm and working through my lunch break. By working these hours in school, I tried not to take too much work home to do, but still had to spend about 3 hours every Sunday evening planning. Even with 30+ years experience as a classroom teacher with no management commitments I would only just be keeping my head above water doing a 50 hour week. Incidentally, I almost always used to spend the first week of the summer holiday in school tidying up and preparing for the new school year.

After 36 years experience, I was earning approx £37k when I retired 8 years ago. I would have loved to have continued working with the children for a few more years instead of taking early retirement. However, there just came a point when I was not prepared to spend so many hours on unnecessary paperwork just to tick boxes to satisfy OFSTED etc.

 

[Thirteen]

How many strikes have there been now against London Underground, run of course by a Labour Mayor!

TBH I don't think apart from 2020 there has been any time on the London Underground where they hasn't been a strike by the RMT since the Mayor of London was created.

 

[Facing Back]

It is a hamstrung reorganisation that begins on the premise there will be no compulsory redundancy or that only the employees can choose that option if they want it.

The railway is currently financially unsustainable. Its financiers (government) are bust, its customers are on strike (because employees thought strikes don't consequences) and it is stuck with a deadweight of unresolved issues like DOO and ticket offices where the can has been kicked down the road for years.

If there was ever a time when it was imperative as an 'exception' not to agree no compulsory redundancy was now.

As I mentioned, indulging this infantile and reality denying proposition (which cannot exist in the productive economy) is inevitably indefinite as it has already become a red line for this and every future negotiation.

It isn't possible to exit people by other means when it is not their ability to meet the requirements of their job, but the requirements or existence of their job that has changed.

Which they do, as sure as night follows day, except in the Jackanory world of the RMT.

Its far from ideal from a company point of view to not be able to choose which staff they lose as part of the reorganisation but "hamstrung" might be too strong. There is only so much change that can be absorbed on one go, so pick the fights which are most important.

You don't get everything you want in a negotiation - they RDG has decided not to push for this now.

And, with respect, it is possible to exit people, although for the next 2 years they egregiously break their terms and are fired or they are nudged into the VR pot.

 

[ar10642]

No, and nor is it an anti-union forum although sometimes you wouldn't know it.

My point is, do you also aim your vitriol at UNITE and the RCN for example, because they are standing up for their members, or is it only the rail unions you have a problem with?

I have much more sympathy with the RCN not least because they strike very rarely and I feel their claims are more valid. And the teachers. The RMT have a history of causing absolute chaos in my part of the world, everyone knows they'll do it again, and everyone's had enough of them now.

 

[Thirteen]

I have much more sympathy with the RCN not least because they strike very rarely and I feel their claims are more valid. And the teachers. The RMT have a history of causing absolute chaos in my part of the world, everyone knows they'll do it again, and everyone's had enough of them now.

First time in 100 years it was for the RCN, you know it's a big deal if you haven't had to strike on a national scale in over a century. Even once a decade for strike action is still big news for other sectors.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have much more sympathy with the RCN not least because they strike very rarely and I feel their claims are more valid. And the teachers. The RMT have a history of causing absolute chaos in my part of the world, everyone knows they'll do it again, and everyone's had enough of them now.

Perhaps unlike the nurses they aren't content for their pay to become the low bar by which everything else is measured. We have a total sickness in this country by continuously going "oh look what a NURSE gets paid" - why do you think they get shafted all the time?

This country has declining living standards and a working population which is willing to eat each other until everyone is the same - at the bottom, eating **** and liking it.

 

[Mike395]

Can we stop with the comparisons with teachers, and also trying to pull DOO into the discussion please - both of them aren't directly relevent to the discussion about this particular dispute, and the first few pages were actually generating some interesting conversation so I'd like to give a bit of a 'reset' from all involved a chance before going down the route of locking this one.

 

[43096]

The point is they aren’t supposed interested in good outcomes for passengers, and it isn’t part of their remit, so it’s hardly valid to criticise them for that?

Which is fine; they are there to represent members' interests. But too often in a dispute the unions play the safety card and declare it to be "making passengers safer" (or whatever wording) as if they do give a stuff about the punters. They can't have it both ways.

 

[Facing Back]

Again this misses the point and appears to be unduly criticising railway staff?

We’re passenger centric to a point - we also have a job to do. Why do think think the RMT is “anti passenger”, they’ve never advertised themselves as being “pro passenger”. They’re neutral on the subject because,

all together now: it isn’t their job to look out for passengers.

It wasn't intended to be aimed at railway staff. I understand the role of the union and I am suggesting that they might perform it better if their stance was different. I don't think they are anti-passenger - perhaps my phrasing was wrong - but they give off a vibe of not really caring about the passenger. The only time they look after the passenger is when they play the safety card so there is little bit of having your cake and eating it perhaps?

 

[43066]

Is this a workers' forum then? It's not advertised as such.

Nobody ever suggested it was?

How has that got to do with anything I have said? I've made no comment on that matter.

I was simply addressing your statement;

any teacher that attempted to stick to 35 hours per week and not do anything extra wouldn't last long.

and making the point that exactly the same applies to railway staff.

I have much more sympathy with the RCN not least because they strike very rarely and I feel their claims are more valid. And the teachers. The RMT have a history of causing absolute chaos in my part of the world, everyone knows they'll do it again, and everyone's had enough of them now.

Good to know where your sympathies lie.

As an ASLEF member, do you believe for one single, solitary second that I’m somehow crawling for your sympathy?!

I’ll disabuse you of that notion right now.

Perhaps unlike the nurses they aren't content for their pay to become the low bar by which everything else is measured. We have a total sickness in this country by continuously going "oh look what a NURSE gets paid" - why do you think they get shafted all the time?

This country has declining living standards and a working population which is willing to eat each other until everyone is the same - at the bottom, eating **** and liking it.

Efficiently put.

 

[Facing Back]

I know all of that, I’ve managed graduates and indeed had to sack one once after he failed his accountancy exams. A grown man bursting into tears in the meeting. Not exactly my idea of fun.

Not my intention to teach you to suck eggs but I have no idea of your background. And if sacking someone is ever fun then I'm not sure I would want to know you.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is a hamstrung reorganisation that begins on the premise there will be no compulsory redundancy or that only the employees can choose that option if they want it.

The railway is currently financially unsustainable. Its financiers (government) are bust,

they are only bust when the markets refuse to fund them and currently that isn't happening. Actually since the Truss fiasco was dealt with the cost of borrowing for gilts has dropped back considerably and the £/$ rate is up over 15% (all good to bring down imported goods)

its customers are on strike (because employees thought strikes don't consequences) and it is stuck with a deadweight of unresolved issues like DOO and ticket offices where the can has been kicked down the road for years.

the operator that had most to gain was SWT and its not as if Souter was shy of taking on the staff but he never did it because the economics didn't stack up.

If there was ever a time when it was imperative as an 'exception' not to agree no compulsory redundancy was now.

there are plenty of vacancies in the industry better to redeploy than get rid off staff

 

[Facing Back]

Interesting you think you’re an arbiter of “this norm”. Can I ask which industries you’ve worked in, to inform your view?

Have you ever worked for a city law firm? I certainly have (as a fee earning lawyer). Another bubble, and my God people criticising railway salaries are in for a shock! NQ solicitors at the firm I worked at pull in £125k, partners do £2m plus.

I left to do something I thought I enjoyed - the toxicity is making me wish I’d not made that move and continued to coin it.

What makes you think I believe that I am an arbiter or anything? I have my own standards and norms, and morals come to that, and measure from those - as do most people in their day to day life. I don't expect anyone else to agree with them or abide by them but I maintain the right to have them.

After a brief stint in academia I became a management consultant, left to do an MBA then joined an investment bank - not in brokerage or trading. After getting tired of that I went back to consulting and ended as a partner of a big 5 firm. Now I am a partner in a boutique firm as well as a NED on a few firms and 1 charity. I have never been an employee of a big city law firm but I have had 2 as clients, several as advisors and worked alongside other on various matters. I've lived and worked in a number of countries over the decades including several in Europe, the US and various parts of Asia. Industries include financial services, banking, automotive, manufacturing and a selection of public sector. I don't really do "advice" but either lead large transformations or act as an interim, at chief officer or director level. In my 30 year experience I've lost track of the number of firms I have worked with - 50 plus - some of them as MD or CIO for over a year.

I know bugger all about the rail industry but I bring a broad perspective from outside - which may not always be welcome.

I applaud you for moving to something you wanted to enjoy more and I'm sorry it has turned toxic for you. I left the city for similar reasons and a level of burn-out

 

[ar10642]

Nobody ever suggested it was?

The suggestion was that (would be) passengers should not dare enter this forum as there are workers here. We should just accept whatever is offered and like it.

Good to know where your sympathies lie.

As an ASLEF member, do you believe for one single, solitary second that I’m somehow crawling for your sympathy?!

No I don't. However this, as far as I know, is not some sort of safe space where rail union members can say whatever they like unchallenged.

I'd like to see a future where everywhere has a transport system as good as London's where you don't have to rely on a private car to get around, a combination of the government and these strikes are making this go backwards and I think it's only fair the other side of the argument is heard. Feel free to ignore me if you don't like what I have to say.

 

[43066]

No my intention to teach you to suck eggs but I have no idea of your background. And if sacking someone is ever fun then I'm not sure I would want to know you.

At the large accountancy firm I worked at (I did a tax advisory role there for a few years after leaving the legal profession). I was his boss and he failed the exams, so there was little choice.

It was an absolutely horrendous thing to have to do, and part of the reason I decided to join the railway.

After getting tired of that I went back to consulting and ended as a partner of a big 5 firm. Now I am a partner in a boutique firm as well as a NED on a few firms and 1 charity. I have never been an employee of a big city law firm but I have had 2 as clients, several as advisors and worked alongside other on various matters.

You’ll be slumming it on circa. half a million quid per year then?

If so, fair play to you, you’re earning every penny. But it’s a different planet to discussion of strikes/traincrew earnings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2023 ==

No I don't. However this, as far as I know, is not some sort of safe space where rail union members can say whatever they like unchallenged.

Indeed it isn’t. But I can’t say what I really think, either. So there we go!

 

[Facing Back]

At the large accountancy firm I worked at (I did a tax advisory role there for a few years after leaving the legal profession). I was his boss and he failed the exams, so there was little choice.

It was an absolutely horrendous thing to have to do, and part of the reason I decided to join the railway.

I get it. We were an "up or out" American firm and I did this many times. It is one of main reasons I left and looked for a different culture

 

[O L Leigh]

You are being disingenuous; any teacher that attempted to stick to 35 hours per week and not do anything extra wouldn't last long.

Staggering!! I’ve given you a full explanation of what I said and still you misunderstand me. Oh well.

 

[Facing Back]

You’ll be slumming it on circa. half a million quid per year then?

If so, fair play to you, you’re earning every penny. But it’s a different planet to discussion of strikes/traincrew earnings.

You will forgive me for not discussing my earnings - hypocritic I know when I can find out what you lot earn. I don't believe that I have ever once commented on salaries being too low or too high.

 

[Buffer stop]

Yes, we're all quite aware the RMT don't care about anything but their ability to stop trains running. Oh sorry, "safety".


Not by choice, I'd rather the service advertised and that we all pay for was delivered.


They don't strike every 5 minutes over minor changes to working practices though do they?

It's the unions' choice to deny passengers a service, nobody else. Even if we get a new government, they will want more.

Who do you blame on days there are no strikes?

 

[LAX54]

First time in 100 years it was for the RCN, you know it's a big deal if you haven't had to strike on a national scale in over a century. Even once a decade for strike action is still big news for other sectors.

RMT Operations Signalmen/Maintainance 1st for 30+ years.

 

[dk1]

RMT Operations Signalmen/Maintainance 1st for 30+ years.

Now we can’t let the truth get in the way of facts can we ?

 

[Starmill]

No, and nor is it an anti-union forum although sometimes you wouldn't know it.

It's a little unseemly to make multiple posts simply complaining that people are posting things you happen to disagree with. If someone posts something you are concerned is against the forum's rules you always have the option to report the post and deal with the matter privately. If you don't think it has broken the rules it's a central tenet of public debate that you can engage with the disagreement on its merits. I haven't noticed anyone else trying to suggest that other people are wrong for giving their views on the situation.

 

[yorkie]

Nobody ever suggested it was?



I was simply addressing your statement;

I still don't understand why you are telling me this; I think you need to look at what I actually wrote.

and making the point that exactly the same applies to railway staff.

It's absolutely not exactly the same; far from it. I think that adequate explanation has probably already been posted upthread but if you wish to debate the differences further, feel free to create a new thread.