Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Railperf]

With what stops? Just a MK or something different?

MK and Crewe

 

[Bald Rick]

That 7 mins is presumably on current SRTs with a 110mph ceiling and ordinary PSRs though?

no it’s the new SRTs assuming the new PS speed profile

It's unusual to introduce a new timetable before the matching trains/infrastructure are delivered!

it is. It wouldn’t have happened if the Pendolinos couldn’t keep to the new SRTs. As it happens, they can beat the comfortably.

 

[hexagon789]

no it’s the new SRTs assuming the new PS speed profile

Thank you, so if an 807 worked such a service without the new MU speed profile in place - how much more of a difference would it make?

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you, so if an 807 worked such a service without the new MU speed profile in place - how much more of a difference would it make?

If you mean how much later than it’s timings would it be, then it’s reasonable to assume it would run to the same time as the LNWR 350s.

 

[william.martin]

Hang on a minute, the packed blackpool services which are currently 9-11 car are being replaced by a 7?

 

[Bald Rick]

Hang on a minute, the packed blackpool services which are currently 9-11 car are being replaced by a 7?

A 7 car 807 has only 16 fewer seats than a 9 car 390, and AIUI, more standard class Seating.

also, I’ve never seen an Avanti Blackpool service packed - quite the opposite!

 

[43096]

A 7 car 807 has only 16 fewer seats than a 9 car 390, and AIUI, more standard class Seating.

also, I’ve never seen an Avanti Blackpool service packed - quite the opposite!

I thought the Avanti Blackpool service only went there as a convenient location to send the set to free the platform at Preston.

 

[hexagon789]

If you mean how much later than it’s timings would it be,

Essentially, yes.

then it’s reasonable to assume it would run to the same time as the LNWR 350s.

Thank you.

A 7 car 807 has only 16 fewer seats than a 9 car 390, and AIUI, more standard class Seating.

also, I’ve never seen an Avanti Blackpool service packed - quite the opposite!

Wow, that's almost Voyager levels of seating inefficiency compared to an 807! Yet, I never thought of 390s as being particularly space inefficient - they don't seat only up to 62 in the intermediate cars for instance.

I suppose it really demonstrates what one can do with 26m bodyshells and a better balance of First Class.

 

[william.martin]

A 7 car 807 has only 16 fewer seats than a 9 car 390, and AIUI, more standard class Seating.

also, I’ve never seen an Avanti Blackpool service packed - quite the opposite!

From what I have seen they get packed imbetween New Street and Euston, not too bad from New Street to Preston and spacious onwards to Blackpool.
I am genuinely surprised that the 807's will have only 16 seats less than the 390/0's.

 

[hexagon789]

From what I have seen they get packed imbetween New Street and Euston, not too bad from New Street to Preston and spacious onwards to Blackpool.
I am genuinely surprised that the 807's will have only 16 seats less than the 390/0's.

453 vs 469

 

[william.martin]

453 vs 469

Good grief, then again I expected to be well... 2 carriages!

 

[Bletchleyite]

453 vs 469

(7 * 24) + (2 * 25) = 218m (9 car Pendo)
(7 * 26) = 182m (7 car 80x)

The 80x is 36m shorter, or one and a half coaches or thereabouts. However they do indeed make better use of space than Pendolinos, in particular the end vehicles have only a small section of non-public area before the cab.

 

[hexagon789]

Good grief, then again I expected to be well... 2 carriages!

2 carriages?

(7 * 24) + (2 * 25) = 218m (9 car Pendo)
(7 * 26) = 182m (7 car 80x)

The 80x is 36m shorter, or one and a half coaches or thereabouts. However they do indeed make better use of space than Pendolinos, in particular the end vehicles have only a small section of non-public area before the cab.

I should've thought of that initially as I said, because when you think of 23m vs 26m it's obvious there should be some improvement but it is more pronounced and I overlooked the fact that while not as bad as Voyagers, the Pendolinos are still not the most efficient particularly in the driving vehicles.

 

[william.martin]

2 carriages?

I meant too carriages shorter, thinking that there wasn't much difference in the amount of seats per carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant too carriages shorter, thinking that there wasn't much difference in the amount of seats per carriage.

There's about one bay more seating in a full 80x vehicle than a 390. 390s have 8 bodyside windows per coach, 80x have 9, and the width and spacing is similar. So you're looking at about 8 more seats per vehicle (depending how efficient the layout is).

 

[hexagon789]

I meant too carriages shorter, thinking that there wasn't much difference in the amount of seats per carriage.

Oh right.

At the most basic level - the maximum a 390 coach seats in Std is 76 but equally some vehicles are 74 or 62 if they have a wheelchair space/toilet. The vehicle with the Shop is only 48.

The 80x have the wheelchair spaces in the driving vehicles, and all the full Std Class intermediates seat 88 (except LUMO which is 94 with less table bays).

So I suppose increased length is one thing but the different layout also contributes.

At least we aren't see a silly proportion of First Class provided against Std as on several new trains such as the 4-car 222s and indeed the 390 themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

12 more? Crikey. I'd have thought nearer 8.

That said, it does look like Avanti have ordered a very low density layout from videos I've seen, it looks like 8 tables per vehicle, mostly window aligned, much nicer than the other 80x (plus the better seats per the Pendolino refurbs). I think they're going to be really rather good and quite popular.

 

[hexagon789]

12 more? Crikey. I'd have thought nearer 8.

That said, it does look like Avanti have ordered a very low density layout from videos I've seen, it looks like 8 tables per vehicle, mostly window aligned, much nicer than the other 80x (plus the better seats per the Pendolino refurbs). I think they're going to be really rather good and quite popular.

88 is what GWR, LNER, HT and TPE but yes, AWC seemed to have lower density seating in Std.

Possibly 80 in the intermediates?

Seating was mentioned as being 49F/402S + 2 wheelchairs.

How I do wish a seating plan was available!

Even carriage by carriage seating totals would be welcome.

 

[InOban]

Is there actually any news on the subject of this thread? How's testing? How many are built?

 

[800001]

Is there actually any news on the subject of this thread? How's testing? How many are built?

2 On test at Old Dalby (805001 and 805003), both 5 car.

At Aycliffe a unit was part sticking out of the test shed and this is believed to me the first 7 car 807001, as that is also due to head to Old Dalby for test.

Also at Aycliffe, shells for 5 car unit 805008 arrived by road this morning to start the assembly process.

Unsure of how production is actually going at the moment.

 

[InOban]

Thanks.

 

[Railperf]

no it’s the new SRTs assuming the new PS speed profile



it is. It wouldn’t have happened if the Pendolinos couldn’t keep to the new SRTs. As it happens, they can beat the comfortably.

They can indeed, but the numerous TSRs and other delays by late running trains mean ot is challenging for the 390s to keep time to even this slower schedule.

If you mean how much later than it’s timings would it be, then it’s reasonable to assume it would run to the same time as the LNWR 350s.

The recent Crewe to Euston loco hauled schedule was 96.5 mins net excluding recovery and pathing allowances. Add 2 mins to the run times for a stop at Milton Keynes.

So i calculate 98.5 mins for 110mph Loco hauled stock vs
Vs 93 min net for the 805/807 at 125mph non tilt
Vs 86 min net for a Pendolino.

 

[Some guy]

I thought the Avanti Blackpool service only went there as a convenient location to send the set to free the platform at Preston.

It used to be but now these are the 3 services as it used to be before Covid except 2 of them are in Birmingham-Glasgow paths but that should change for may 2023

 

[Mikey C]

There's about one bay more seating in a full 80x vehicle than a 390. 390s have 8 bodyside windows per coach, 80x have 9, and the width and spacing is similar. So you're looking at about 8 more seats per vehicle (depending how efficient the layout is).

The existing 80x have much better legroom than the 390s, so that would reduce the "extra" seating benefit from the 26m carriages and better layout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The existing 80x have much better legroom than the 390s, so that would reduce the "extra" seating benefit from the 26m carriages and better layout.

That's the seats. The refurbished Pendolinos have legroom about the same as the 80x (better than 80x in tables) with the same layout as built. The original seats had very thick backs and supports where your knees go.

Normal airline seat legroom in a refurbished 390 is about the same as in a priority row in an unrefurbished one.

 

[Railperf]

I thought the quicker acceleration away from corners helped to compensate for the none tilt of the 805/807? And that they would be able to maintain 390 timings?

Let's out this one to bed! A Pendolino's top end acceleration from 90mph is quicker than a class 800/802. But an 805/807 will always lose time having to brake for lower speeds and accelerating back up to 125mph - where the Pendolino can sail through at full speed. That's why the non tilt schedule for Class 805/ 807 is appx 7 minutes slower net timings than the Pendolino schedule from Euston to Crewe.

On the simulator, 30.5 mins Euston to Milton Keynes is achieved following a hybrid speed profile (EPS as existing except for reductions to 100mph at Berkhamsted and 90mph nirth of Leighton Buzzard

 

[InOban]

The test set is finished at Old Dalby and has departed, can't remember where to.

 

[fgwrich]

The test set is finished at Old Dalby and has departed, can't remember where to.

Not quite yet, 805001 & 003 will be leaving Old Dalby on Monday morning at 08.50 bound for Oxley. Both understood to be running under their own power.

 

[paddyb6]

Not quite yet, 805001 & 003 will be leaving Old Dalby on Monday morning at 08.50 bound for Oxley. Both understood to be running under their own power.

Headcode is 0Z70, implying a Light Engine? Assuming the Headcode will be changed prior to departure?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Headcode is 0Z70, implying a Light Engine? Assuming the Headcode will be changed prior to departure?

Realtime Trains | 0Z70 0855 Old Dalby to Oxley Car. M.D. | 30/01/2023

Real-time train running information for 0Z70 0855 departure from Old Dalby to Oxley Car. M.D. on 30/01/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Also says
Diesel locomotive
Planned for 75mph max
Not very fitting for a 125mph capable train on its own power.